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PT Obi Wan was an atrocious teacher and a terrible mentor

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Medievalgirl1, Jan 4, 2021.

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  1. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    It is often claimed that Obi Wan Kenobi failed Anakin as a teacher because he was too lenient on him, focused too much on their brotherly relationship and let him get away with too much. However, I don't believe this can be supported by the movies nor the material in series like The Clone wars and even the novels.

    Quite the contrary in fact
    • Obi Wan is strict as you can get. When his student so much as expresses an independent opinion or makes a suggestion, he's automatically shut down and told to keep in line.

    • Obi Wan has not qualms about chiding Anakin in public, in a manner that comes over as demeaning and humiliating in front of people who are not Jedi.

      This image really is worth a thousand words. Anakin's whole stance screams of timidity, defensiveness and shame. He has his head down, his shoulders hunched and looks down.

      What was his crime? Suggesting that the Jedi should try to find Padme's assassin and not just protect her. In other words, take action to solve the problem instead of just waiting for it to happen again.

      [​IMG]


    • Obi Wan clearly thinks the role of a father/mentor is to force his charge to be obedient. Or else. This is demonstrated by the when they go into the club to look for Padme's assassin in Attack of the Clones in which Obi Wan responds to Anakin telling him he seems him as a father by saying "then why don't you listen to me?".

    • Anakin clearly feels he cannot confide in his Master from the outset. People often blame Anakin for this, saying its his fault for not trusting Mr Perfect.

      In Attack of the Clones, when the subject of his dreams about his mother is approached, Anakin quickly changes the subject saying "He would rather dream about Padme". This is an evasion, and when a young person is as evasive as this there is almost always a good reason for it.

      This type of evasion usually results from a person feeling ashamed or scared of opening up about a particular subject or event. Why would Anakin feel scared or ashamed of talking about his mother? Especially of his dreams she was in danger?

      I can only think of one explanation. He'd been scolded every single time he mentioned her. He'd been shamed for missing her. He'd been hit on the proverbial head with the Jedi Code and told his feelings are wrong

    • Obi Wan tells him "dreams pass in time". It was already established that Anakin had prophetic dreams and premonitions. He had them even as a child on Tatooine. Qui Gon recognized this, called it "Jedi senses" so its obvious that Anakin's dreams are not just dreams.

      Hence, what Obi Wan was doing here was actually a form of gaslighting. We also see him gaslighting Anakin only a moments later in which he questions his Jedi senses, namely his ability to sense whether or not something is wrong in Padme's room. His senses prove to be as keen as his Master's, as he "feels it too" at the same time as him.

      Actually, this is gaslighting on two levels, as the ability to sense whether their charge might be in danger is accepted by Obi Wan as legitimate for a Jedi.

      Yet Anakin's sense that his mother might be in danger is obviously not. Regardless of whether Obi Wan believes Anakin's dreams are prophetic or not, he has no right to deny or invalidate Anakin's perception of reality.


    • Anakin is regularly shamed or judged for his feelings and emotions, being told to "mind them" or reminded of the prohibition on attachments. For all that some fans say Anakin should have opened up to Obi Wan about his relationship with Padme because he too had a romantic relationship, they seem to forget how the one exchange they did have ended. With Obi Wan telling him not to allow things to go beyond friendship, because Jedi Code.

      It is obvious then that opening up about the true nature of their relationship (i.e telling him they were married) would not have ended well. Obi Wan would not have recognized or accepted their marriage, and would most likely have reported him to the Council and forced them to separate or divorce.

    • Another example would be the deception Arc in the Clone Wars, in which Anakin was shamed by both Obi Wan and Yoda for feeling angry and upset, first at believing his Master was dead, and then for being lied to.

      [​IMG]

      Actually, this may have done more to destroy Anakin's faith in Obi Wan than anything else. If he could deceive him on such an important matter, why should he trust him and confide in him about anything?

    • This also only served to reinforce the idea in Anakin's mind that when there was a conflict, Obi Wan would always side with the Council.
      Which was almost always the case. Even when it came to Ahsoka, even though Obi Wan claimed he did not support her expulsion we don't actually see him expressing vocal opposition to the Council's judgement on this matter.

    • Obi Wan never once expresses praise, encouragement or validation for his Padawan when he does a good job or gets something right. Believe it or not. this does happen. The first and indeed only time we ever see him saying anything positive about Anakin to his face is towards the end of Revenge of the Sith when he's leaving for Utapua.

      This is actually quite shocking. In 13 years Obi Wan only praised Anakin once. This is the man who saved his life, who fought alongside him and had been one of the most capable commanders in the Clone Wars.

      Even on this occasion, the praise was preceded by Anakin admitting his faults and showing a deferential attitude.

    • Tragically, the only time we ever see Obi Wan saying he loves Anakin was after their duel on Mustafar, and then he speaks in the past tense. He loved him. In all of their years together, for all their supposed friendship and camaraderie he never once said this. Never once offered Anakin any kind of validation or emotional support.


    I don't know if anyone on here has a background in teaching or childcare, but if they do they might see the problem with this. Any teacher who thought their main role was to force their students to be obedient, never gave them praise for good work and humiliated them in public would not be a good, nor indeed a competent teacher.

    It is not a teacher's role to break their student's spirit or control them, as Obi Wan seems to think is his role with Anakin.

    I believe on this basis that Anakin turning to Palpatine was not surprising at all. Its stated I believe in Canon that Padme was the only person that Anakin felt he could be himself around. Palpatine, sadly, was the only person he felt he could speak to and confide in without being judged, condemned or told his feelings were bad and wrong.


     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  2. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 29, 2005
    I always felt another master should have trached Anakin

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
  3. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    @Medievalgirl1 - I am sorry that your other thread got closed, but seeing as I referred to your post here, I would continue with your permission.

    You are using a contemporary teacher of general education as your basis for comparison and your rebuke of Obi-Wan Kenobi here, but it is possibly a false comparison. The Jedi Knights are supposed to be a pastiche of galactic samurai warriors or shaolin monks, and who are also required to fight as soldiers. It isn't out of place then that they are hard on their apprentices and constantly disciplining them.
     
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  4. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Sadly, I believe that the Jedi Order had become what psychologists might call a "toxic environment". Abusive and toxic practices were so common and pervasive that a different teacher might not have made any difference.

    I don't think that have psychology in GFFR though.
     
  5. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    But of course Obi Wan can do no wrong in the sight of people like you. Even if he whipped Anakin 4 times a day, that would be totally justified.
     
  6. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Even so, you have no proof that approach actually works. Of course you'll resort to the "only 2 Jedi in the entire history of the Order fell to the Dark Side" garbage. There is nothing wrong with a mentor, even in that position showing some degree of tolerance and compassion for their student.

    Obi Wan shows none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Yet for all that his fans still grumble and whinge about how his student didn't confide in him. You can't have it both ways.

    Or you might try the "Anakin is really disobedient and always breaking the rules approach.

    There are only 2 incidents of him breaking the rules in Attack of the Clones, and one of those was actually instigated by Padme, not him. I am referring to the rescue attempt on Geonosis of course. Anakin wanted to stay, but she ignored him and insisted they go.

    As for the former, Anakin had no intention whatsoever of taking her to Tatooine with him. He simply told her of his intention to go so he did not leave without telling anyone.

    He is actually quite prepared to suffer the consequences of leaving to go and find his mother, as demonstrated in the novelization of Attack of the Clones. Which shows a good deal of emotional maturity BTW.

    “I know I’m disobeying my mandate to protect you,” Anakin tried to explain. “I know I will be punished and possibly thrown out of the Jedi Order, but I have to go.”

    Salvatore, R A. Star Wars: Episode II - Attack Of The Clones (p. 217).

    As far as fighting goes, the ability to innovate, adapt and think outside the box can actually be a useful trait in a soldier.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  7. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    [​IMG]

    I don't get it. In your other thread, you claimed that Obi-Wan is too perfect. Now, you're arguing the opposite.

    :confused:
     
  8. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    You are attributing opinions and views to me that I haven't made, and making a strawman fallacy argument here.

    Again, I have made no claim about Anakin, grumbled or whinged, nor made any claim as to whether Obi-Wan's approach is effective. I am only offering a possible reference for the Jedi and what they are likely based on in terms of their aesthetic, philosophy and methods.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  9. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Again, I have made no claim about Anakin, grumbled or whinged, nor whether Obi-Wan's approach is effective. I am only offering a possible reference for the Jedi and what they are likely based on in terms of their aesthetic, philosophy and methods.[/QUOTE]


    Or you might try the "Anakin is really disobedient and always breaking the rules approach.

    There are only 2 incidents of him breaking the rules in Attack of the Clones, and one of those was actually instigated by Padme, not him. I am referring to the rescue attempt on Geonosis of course. Anakin wanted to stay, but she ignored him and insisted they go.

    As for the former, Anakin had no intention whatsoever of taking her to Tatooine with him. He simply told her of his intention to go so he did not leave without telling anyone.

    He is actually quite prepared to suffer the consequences of leaving to go and find his mother, as demonstrated in the novelization of Attack of the Clones. Which shows a good deal of emotional maturity BTW.

    “I know I’m disobeying my mandate to protect you,” Anakin tried to explain. “I know I will be punished and possibly thrown out of the Jedi Order, but I have to go.”

    Salvatore, R A. Star Wars: Episode II - Attack Of The Clones (p. 217).

    As far as fighting goes, the ability to innovate, adapt and think outside the box can actually be a useful trait in a soldier.
     
  10. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020

    That's more fans. Want him to have their cake and eat it. Want a simplistically perfect character and insist he's complex, conflicted and deep at the same time.

    I have no issue pointing out his failures and bad points, if fans can't or won't accept that, its their problem. Not mine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  11. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    [​IMG]
    This is my level of confusion right now
     
  12. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020

    Do you have anything useful or worthwhile to add? Or just rambling like a triggered fan (again) because someone said something mean about your favourite character.
     
  13. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    I want to contribute something useful but, to date, I have had multiple comments and views attributed to me that I haven't even said or made, been accused of rambling, being a cultist, a triggered fan, and that Obi-Wan is my favourite character, and so on and so on. o_O

    Even though I think you are possibly just having a giggle here, I am really trying to be patient with you and offer you some civil discourse and polite explanations as to why the Jedi might be portrayed as they are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  14. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    And when I replied to your statements (above) you just replied with silly memes and by referring to other threads. Please keep on topic.
     
  15. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Yes, lets talk about that. It is debatable what the inspiration for them is, possibly Samurai though more in the OT. Perhaps they even draw their inspiration in part from the knights Templar.
    Historically however, they are extremely problematic and one cannot find exact parallels with any group. Since its fantasy, that can be forgiven.

    One can however comment upon the characters behaviour and the general interpretation thereof. Since its generally held Kenobi can do no wrong and was the best Jedi who ever lived, his teaching methods should also be above reproach. Clearly, they are not.
     
  16. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 1, 2020
    Oh, there's people doing that?

    I know I'm a huge Obi-Wan Kenobi "Stan," he's been my favorite character from the opening moments of The Phantom Menace...



    ...at the moment when he lowered his hood he supplanted Luke Skywalker for me.

    Yes, I'm simple like that. :cool:

    No, but, yeah, I think Obi-Wan Kenobi is pretty much the perfect Jedi. Or the most ideal Jedi. Precisely because he is flawed as hell; like the Jedi are as a concept as a whole.

    Of course, my second favorite character is Kylo Ren (and then Anakin, and then Luke, and Ahsoka rounds out my top five). So Kylo Ren is kind of different than Obi-Wan Kenobi. :cool:

    Just to add a couple more things to the pile, a few character traits (quotes)...
    And (as you mentioned)...
    And...
    And really only the third one kind of encompasses Obi-Wan Kenobi for me.

    But yeah, Obi-Wan Kenobi is so awesome to me because he's not perfect.

    And I can't wait to see what they do to torture him more in Obi-Wan Kenobi. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  17. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    If your angle of attack here is aimed squarely at Obi-Wan Kenobi and some perceived idea that he is held to be some kind of infallible, perfect Jedi, then I don't know exactly what response you are looking for. It isn't something I have ever claimed, nor really heard before. He is possibly portrayed as some kind of 'ideal' version of what a Jedi Knight should aspire to be, and maintains a kind of moral yardstick role through the saga, but that is a common trope. He does admit to his failings with Anakin though, and his attempt to teach him as well as Yoda might have done. It forms a large part of who he is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  18. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020

    Yeah---- woo- hoo amazing. He had 13 years to say he loved the kid, but because of the Jedi rules on emotions and attachments he was too scared to. That's not a good point. People need to be told they are appreciated and need validation.
    He's just parroting what Qui Gon told him by the way. All that time and he could not even come up with something original to say. Anakin loved him far more than he deserved.

    Saying "I have failed you" whilst trying to chop a person to pieces is kind of contradictory and ridiculous. If its meant to show how humble and self-effacing Obi Wan you must have forgotten the rest of of this conversation. He said this after being the first to draw his sword and bleating on about how wonderful democracy is, whilst serving a system that utilized slave and child soldiers.

    Obi Wan is nothing but the Epitome of Jedi self-righteous hypocrisy. Screw with use and abuse people all their lives, throw them under the bus when necessary and then wonder why they hate you.
     
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  19. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Never something you've heard before. You don't encounter many of his fans then. He didn't "admit his failings", he was just trying to talk Anakin down. Right after shouting abut how wonderful the Republic was. His response afterwards was to double down on his beliefs and then wonder why Luke wouldn't do as he told him either.

    "Moral yardstick" That's a good one. My rough paraphrase of Return of the Jedi shows what kind of moral yardstick he is.

    "I didn't lie to make you kill your father, I just altered the definition of truth to get away with it. You still have to do it though, because somebody has to correct my **** up to defeat the Emperor. Not that killing Vader will actually mean destroying the Emperor or change much in the long term.

    If you don't do it, I'll use Leia. You know, your twin sister who we were using as a disposable commodity right up until now. The one who we told you to allow to die, and you had that awkward incestuous kiss with because of my pathological inability to tell the truth. Yeah her. We don't want you to let her die now because she's useful to us. You're the disposable one now"

    Yoda. Don't get me started on that troll. Telling an abused child he's evil because he has fear and speaking in fortune cookie level aphorisms. Hiding almost everything from the Senate because "our enemies may increase" and then expecting a 23 year old to do his work for him .
     
  20. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Oh good heavens. You're not one of those "Obi Wan is the ultimate tragic hero and the most tragic character in Star Wars" types are you? Please say no.

    Obi Wan is not and will never be a tragic hero, because he lacks the defining characteristic of a tragic hero. He never falls.
     
  21. Lobot's Wig

    Lobot's Wig Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 13, 2020
    Interesting analysis.
     
  22. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020
    [/QUOTE]Interesting analysis.[/QUOTE]

    Forthright and slightly sarcastic analysis are my specialty.
     
  23. Master Cado Afu

    Master Cado Afu Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 1, 2020
    Yes (the part in bold). I agree.

    Like in my signature, when Duchess Satine said, "Senators, I presume you are acquainted with the collection of half-truths and hyperbole known as Obi-Wan Kenobi."

    The Jedi are hypocrites are flawed, but they're also noble and righteous. They're both, and that's what makes them interesting.

    And that's what makes Obi-Wan Kenobi interesting to me. He's a hypocrite, and he's a righteous hypocrite. And a collection of half-truths and hyperbole. And he's noble... from a certain point of view.

    He's Obi-Wan Kenobi. He's all of that. :cool:

    No, I don't think he's tragic at all. People actually think that?

    No, Anakin is/was tragic. Obi-Wan was just there to play a role in that.

    And I ultimately blame the Force for why Anakin was the way he was, and did the things he did. Because that had to have been what was prophetized. Anakin had to have fallen to the dark side, Obi-Wan's mentoring had to have played a role in that, and Luke had to have been the only one to help his father bring balance to the Force.

    So everything had to have played out the way it did, and everyone had to have played their role in the way that they did (including Obi-Wan with his handling, or mis-handling, of Anakin and Luke), because that must have been what the prophecy was... and again, how it was supposed to unfold.

    And I'm confused...

    What do you want Obi-Wan Kenobi to be: perfect or flawed, or both? Or neither, or what? :cool:

    Obi-Wan Kenobi failing Anakin is what starts the story, how else should it have played out?
     
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  24. Paleof

    Paleof Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Mar 13, 2019
    Obi-Wan made mistakes and perhaps a more experienced master would've done a better job with Anakin. But I hesitate to say that he was "atrocious" or "terrible". He does show compassion for Anakin, like trying to comfort him about his nightmares (which he doesn't know are premonitions, that is pretty clear), and it's clear that Anakin, despite his resentment of Obi-Wan "holding him back", does have a great regard for Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan didn't want to break Anakin's spirit, that is ridiculous. He was trying to teach Anakin but grew frustrated (sometimes overly so) when Anakin didn't listen. Ultimately Anakin was responsible for his own choices, so I don't really like the seeming intent of this post to absolve him of the blame.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  25. Medievalgirl1

    Medievalgirl1 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 25, 2020

    I certainly don't want perfect characters. Nobody likes a Mary Sue, or a Gary Stu. The problem is when fan head canon comes to be accepted as "fact", and that's what's happened with Obi Wan Kenobi. People insist he is perfect and can do no wrong.

    "the perfect/ultimate Jedi" "the best Jedi who ever lived" "the greatest warrior who ever lived". Those are all phrases that have been applied to him, even on this board. I've even seen people who really should know better making such claims, even at times, totally ignoring his less than admirable actions to cast him as a paragon of virtue. I hate that. Its dishonest and misleading.

    Such people don't seem to realize that having flaws, actual realistic flaws not just "he didn't train Anakin properly", does not detract from his character. That is makes him less human, not more, and its not consistent with what we see of his character.

    And yes, there are people who try to say he's the most tragic character in all of Star Wars. They're usually the same one ones who say he's absolutely perfect. Its almost like they realize it makes him a far less compelling and complex character, so they desperately need to add something to make him more interesting. But they don't want it to be flaws.

    This lady puts it well.
     
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