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PT Obi Wans Master

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by TheCowboyBuilder, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. TheCowboyBuilder

    TheCowboyBuilder Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 25, 2016
    Who was Obi Wans Master ?
    according to the OT it was Yoda, and of course with the PT it's Qui Gon - so is it a bit of both ?
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    He was trained by Yoda as a Youngling and upon reaching a certain age was then apprenticed to Qui-Gon to train in the field.
     
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yoda was his master when Obi-Wan was at this stage (like every other Jedi):

    [​IMG]
     
  4. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2014
    removed/bait.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2018
  5. TheCowboyBuilder

    TheCowboyBuilder Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 25, 2016
    Sorry for asking the simple questions ..
     
  6. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    When is it stated that Yoda was the "master" of every youngling? All we saw was him teaching ONE CLASS in ONE SCENE. Am I missing something here?
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Yoda is the one who teaches all younglings to let go, forget about and become less attached to their loved ones and family than normal people usually are. But because Yoda withheld this training from Anakin, that's why Anakin was, errr, abnormal. (According to the creator)
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, you are, but I'm not going to even bother arguing it with you. :)

    Yoda didn't "withhold" anything from Anakin. He was available to Anakin for advice and counselling even though the main responsibility for Anakin's training fell to Obi-Wan. The real problem was that Anakin was too old and had already formed strong attachments--abnormally strong ones, at that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm quoting George Lucas. The council allowing Anakin to be trained by Obi Wan after Yoda declined to provide him with that specific aspect of Jedi training, which all other Jedi receive from Yoda, is the root of Anakin's difficulties later on, according to GL.

    If Yoda had given him this training, instead of rejecting him and Anakin being made Obi Wan's padawan immediately, bypassing the youngling lessons that Yoda and the Jedi deem important enough to be provided, specifically by Yoda, to all Jedi, then it might have been a different story.

    Says the guy who created all of the above.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    False. Lucas never stated anything about Yoda declining to provide any Jedi training. What Lucas said was that by allowing someone as old as Anakin for Jedi training, it would automatically be skipping the early training altogether. Hence the issue of being too old is so problematic.
     
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  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Yoda teaches all the Younglings. Only once in a blue moon will he actually train someone until knighthood.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    So it was never stated lol You're just going on the assumption based on ONE scene.

    This doesn't make much sense. Anakin was too old to being training, plain and simple. Some convoluted explanation about Yoda denying help to him that isn't shown in the film is a paper thin argument.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Lucas never said anything about "automatically skipping" anything. You've invented this "automatic" clause, @Alexrd . What I've said is direct from Lucas. He said if Yoda had trained him. But Yoda declined to train him. He kicked the subject into the long grass, leaving Obi-Wan to retrieve it.

    There was nothing that automatically prevented Yoda from providing that training except obstinacy in the face of the council's decision to allow Anakin to become a Jedi against Yoda's wishes. Yoda decided that Anakin shouldn't begin training at all and so abdicated his responsibility when the council disagreed. Obi-Wan was forced to take on a padawan who has been denied the essential youngling training.

    Thirteen years later, Yoda advises Anakin he must train himself in the matter of attachments. Training that you are claiming Anakin was automatically excused from receiving, and Yoda was "automatically" excused from providing, at the age Anakin was supposed to have received it by. Even after Yoda has identified that it was the very training that Anakin most sorely needed at that time.

    Yoda declines to train Anakin. (It is Yoda who initiates all Jedi training). It's in the movie and its identified by Lucas, in the audio commentary, as the origin of Anakin's difficulties as a Jedi. It's the author's argument. Not mine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  14. Darth Visor

    Darth Visor Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 25, 2018
    I agree with you that Anakin had strong emotional attachments to those around him, and certainly that played into the fear that would become his downfall, but at the same time, I think from a philosophical perspective, Anakin never fit in with the Jedi. If you look at a couple lines from the Sith Code, namely:

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion
    and​
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The force shall free me.
    For the first line: Anakin, without a doubt, by the beginning of The Clone Wars, and likely the end of AOTC, believes this to be true. At the very least, the first portion, that "Peace is a lie". Anakin believes in taking dramatic and often violent courses of action if he deems them necessary, this tends not to be the Jedi way (Or at least, I don't think it's supposed to be). Whether or not this is an inherent part of his personality or something that developed due to a fear of loss is open to interpretation.

    But the second line, particularly the end... I would say that at the age he is in The Phantom Menace, and probably for sometime before that, Anakin believed this. Maybe not that he personally would get the force and free himself, but that the Jedi must have come to free him and his mother.

    And past that into AOTC and ROTS, Anakin is always seeking to grow in power with the Jedi. There's the scene in ROTS where he is upset that he is allowed to sit on the council, but isn't made a master. I think Anakin is power hungry by nature, yes, but I also think that he think that by having that power, and by being a Jedi Master, and by doing things like taking dramatic and violent courses of action to solve problems, that at that point he's genuinely doing it at least partially because he believes he can do the most good by being in that position.

    What I'm trying to say, overall, is that I think even without the abnormally strong emotional attachments he had, Anakin's mindset was more attuned with that of Sith philosophy, even when he was trying to do good, and that leaving or being kicked out of the Jedi order, somehow, was inevitable for him.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But the Jedi prescribe training to let go of attachments. Why have training to let go of something that, if you have them, like in Anakin's case and likely in just about every child's case, they make you unsuitable to begin this reportedly mandatory training for all prospective Jedi?
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The subject was addressed in "Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force", which received the information from Lucas himself. It's been used ever since. It was later stated in "The Clone Wars: Voices" that Yoda had trained all of the Jedi, before passing them off to other Jedi Masters and Knights. This is why Lucas went out of his way to show Yoda training the Younglings and not have a similar scene with Mace or Ki-Adi or Plo.
     
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    And yet you can't provide and single quote to back it up?
     
  18. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    OK, check this out:

    When Obi-Wan was a toddler/very small child (as in, the same age as the Younglings we saw in AoTC and RoTS), he was instructed by Yoda. When he came of age (assuming early teen years), he was chosen by Qui-Gon to be his apprentice.
     
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  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    In stark contrast to Anakin who is made the apprentice of Obi Wan, who has only just graduated from being padawan himself, immediately. Bypassing the essential initial lessons that all other inductees receive.

    The council's collective and individual arrogance and hubris sets Anakin up to fail, ultimately. Only a familial attachment (the supposed root of his evil) helps Anakin redeem these errors.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Anakin saved Luke by giving up his attachments. He saved Luke even though it meant giving up the only thing still linking him to the world: the Emperor. He saved Luke even though it meant he would have to die and not be able to be with Luke in the world. That's selflessness, not attachment.

    It really sounds like you don't understand what the Buddhist idea of non-attachment entails. Being a Buddhist doesn't mean you can't love your family. It just means you can't love them in a possessive way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  21. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Not supposed at all.

    It's right in the story and the character.

    Anakin wants Padme to live for himself. He can't live without her. He's not doing it for her but for himself. Selfish.

    Anakin saves Luke so that Luke can live on without him. He's not doing it for himself but for Luke. Selfless.

    One is for himself the other is for another.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Which attachments did Anakin let go of in ROTJ? His attachment to the supposed power of the darkside, which had only continued after Padme's death (the thing he wanted to prevent) in order to avoid facing what he'd done in its name. Instead of the darkside being a means to an end, it became the end itself once the familial attachment to Padme and their unborn that he was desperate to protect had been destroyed.

    The Emperor misjudged Anakin's attachment to his son. Luke felt this attachment, and correctly identified it as the inherent goodness that prevents Vader from killing him.

    Vader was forced to choose only the attachment to his son, and effectively apostatise in order to prevent his master from destroying his son.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "I think we are overlooking an obvious thread."

    OBI-WAN: "Which is?"

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Count Dooku was Yoda's apprentice, and Count Dooku has fallen to the dark side."

    OBI-WAN: "All of us have apprenticed to Master Yoda. He cannot be held accountable for Dooku's descent."

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "But they are connected, profoundly."

    "The Clone Wars: Voices". Season six, episode eleven.


    Close. It was his selflessness, not his attachment to Luke, that saved them both.

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213.

    It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the Chosen One, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier, Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.


    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

    SERENITY:
    "At death, in order for you to preserve your identity, you must know yourself, your true self, and then let go."


    QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

    YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

    QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

    So, yes, he let's go of Luke and his desire for power and his desire to rule, in favor of doing a selfless final act. An act of compassion, not greed. He gives up everything that he wanted and put the needs another person, ahead of his own.
     
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    This could easily mean Yoda as the Grand Master acts as a mentor to all Jedi. Or that he has taught them all in class. Not that they were all literally his apprentices from birth. Seems logistically impossible.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    They were all his Padawans in those classes. From time to time, he would take on one student as a full time Padawan, like he did with Dooku. Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Mace, Dooku, Ki-Adi, Ahsoka, Kanan, Depa, Luminara, Shaak Ti, Plo, Yaddle, etc. They all learned from him that way. The kid who figures out that the Archives' memory was erased, he was named Jack, but Yoda also refers to him as a Padawan. This is why Yoda says that he has trained Jedi for eight hundred years.

    And as mentioned in the other thread, this was something long used in the old EU. "Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force" and "Star Wars: Path To Rebellion" both introduced Yoda teaching the Jedi as children first. It was then revisited multiple times including "Shatterpoint", where Mace recalls Yoda giving him his first lesson on attachments as a toddler and "Legacy Of The Jedi", where Yoda decides to complete Dooku's training, despite having already been paired off with another Jedi who didn't want the responsibility. Certain Jedi handled different aspects, such as Cin Dralling did with Lightsaber combat, as Obi-wan recalls learning from him in the ROTS novelization.