Animated Shorts Official Discussion: Clone Wars Season 3 [Chapter 25] (SPOILERS)

"The continuity editors should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen."

I haven't read LOE so I can't comment on story continuity. But for the record, the job of continuity editor refers to someone who makes sure there is as much continuity between cuts as possible. It's technical, not writing like what you're talking about. That just seems to be the result of storytellers not collaborating to me.

 

Ok its taken me a while, and this thread is probably near death, but here are my thoughts on the season. First off let me say I really enjoyed it. I started to list everything I liked about it but it was taking to long to do a paragraph for each chapter so let me just write about what I didn't like. The Anakin "ghost-hand" story line. It just didn't have the same gravitas when standing next to the monumental events on Courscant. It was slow, and although the Vader dream sequence was cool, it wasn't necesary.

I have also read LOE and I am not bringing it up for continuity. The fact that they are contradictory doesn't bother me. What does bother me is how much better Anakin and Obi's "distraction mission" is in the book. I thought the Palpatine chase was exciting in both accounts so it doesn't bother me that they were different. I don't want to spoil the book but let me say Sidious explains why he wants Obi and Anakin out of the way and he gives them good bait to go chase, so the battle feels important to the war, not some side quest out of guilt for an inconsequential tribal cat people. Also in the book Obi and Anakin work together, there interaction in episode 22 was my favorite part of the series, so it upsets me that they were seperated at the end. We seem to always get solo quests- why can't they do anything together?!

Other than that I loved this series and I still give it a 9/10. Everything was well done and even though one part of the storyline wasn't as amazing as the rest of the series it wasn't bad. Still it keeps Clone Wars V2 from getting the 11/10 that I would break the rating meter to give it.

 

Continuity errors? In the EU? *gasp* But that's never happened before!


RE: Anakin's rage - that is hardly self-defense. The battle is over, the scientists are retreating. The Techno Union soldiers only fired back when Anakin attacked *them.* It's a fairly disturbing scene - as it should be. It was only on the second watch that I realized that he did more than asphixiate the guy, but crush his neck as well.

 

I don't get all this surprise at Anakin's actions against the TU guys? I mean, he did wipe out an entire clan of Tusken Raiders! Men, Women and Children!

Anakin wasn't raised by Jedi. He had a pretty dismal life on Tatooine. Being a slave to Watto probably wasn't like being at summer camp. He wasn't taken in by the Jedi at infancy and raised all pampered in a tower. He had to work for his survival, with a chip in him that could kill him at any moment, really!

This is not an excuse to his actions, but it is a reason. Anakin is a loose cannon. His feelings clearly rule him, and at that moment, he was pissed, and some one had to pay the piper!

Besides, those "poor" TU guys weren't exactly innocent. I'm sure if Anakin hadn't gotten to them, the Nelvaan warriors would have ripped them to pieces.

All this is just breadcrumbs leading up to Anakin's turn to the darkside. It's obvious he's dis-satisfied with the Jedi, you'd have to be blind not to see that! These events are only the begining as we'll all see in May.

Save your tears for then.

-DZ

 

One thing to keep in mind: When has the EU EVER cared about continuity?

 

Darth Zemog - It's not the action that's shocking, but the visual. The Tusken Raiders is equally morally ambiguous, yes, but we got a scene change before we saw the really graphic details of what happened. Similarly, slicing someone in half in a flash-quick death is significantly different than choking a guy in midair for several seconds before causing his throat and skull to implode.

 

Is it bad that even though Anakin had gone off like a cannon at the end...I still found his rage an incredible turn-on? Because I though what he did was heroic, sacrficing his arm to save the Nelvans and then destroying the TU guys. His rage was impressive....and scary...but justified...and of course, I love his new hand......but all in all, I think that what he did, no matter how savage, was heroic...

 

One thing to keep in mind: When has the EU EVER cared about continuity?
Most EU writers and sources work to keep continuity as clean as possible, especially in recent days. The New Jedi Order is a perfect example, as they carefully outlined the sections so as to not have authors writing conflicting accounts. Some of the stories even interacted in brief important moments. Additionally, placing new characters like Jaina, Jacen or Anakin Solo in the novels is itself a continuity move. While some authors have disregarded the work of others, for the most part the EU is being cleaned up and can be viewed as one universe united in one continuity. I was going for a pledge of allegiance sounding thing there, but that just didn't work out.

 

:::Is it bad that even though Anakin had gone off like a cannon at the end...I still found his rage an incredible turn-on? Because I though what he did was heroic, sacrficing his arm to save the Nelvans and then destroying the TU guys. His rage was impressive....and scary...but justified...and of course, I love his new hand......but all in all, I think that what he did, no matter how savage, was heroic...

Especially, considering that he was giving the "evil eye" to all of those aliens walking by on Coruscant in Chapter 21, back when he was just a Padawan...

 

Most EU writers and sources work to keep continuity as clean as possible, especially in recent days.

*These* days, yes, but take a good look at the post-ROTJ EU sometime. The novels are positively riddled with continuity errors that contradict the movies (albeit, some of them are the fault of the PT release dates), each other, and just basic logic and characterization changes. (i.e. How on Earth do so many Imperial superweapons exist past TTT without Thrawn ever mentioning them? Are you really telling me that Mr. Gary Stu know-all, think-all with his resources and intelligence had no idea that these weapons existed and then didn't plan to employ them?)


The New Jedi Order is a perfect example, as they carefully outlined the sections so as to not have authors writing conflicting accounts. Some of the stories even interacted in brief important moments. Additionally, placing new characters like Jaina, Jacen or Anakin Solo in the novels is itself a continuity move.

True, but the NJO is hardly perfect, either. It was a great idea, but there are way too many iffy novels and (some feel) movie-contradictory ideas about the Force within the series to say it was over all well-executed. It was good, but it could have been a hell of a lot better.


While some authors have disregarded the work of others, for the most part the EU is being cleaned up and can be viewed as one universe united in one continuity. I was going for a pledge of allegiance sounding thing there, but that just didn't work out.

Despite the problems, the EU doesn't do too badly. The Clone Wars in particular, as you've mentioned, have really cleaned up some of the mess seen in other continuities. The problem more with the Clone Wars is that there's simply just *so* much information to assimilate, all of it taking place in only 3 years...and a whole ton of it taking place around a few certain months. The cartoon doesn't really bother me. I can rationalize away alot of the nitpicky details with uncomplicated logic.

Personally, I think it's fun to pretend that both accounts are true - make believe that the events of the GFFA are being told by multiple storytellers, and like any historical event, there are bound to be inconsistencies in the retelling by different individuals.

 

It's not the action that's shocking, but the visual. The Tusken Raiders is equally morally ambiguous, yes, but we got a scene change before we saw the really graphic details of what happened.

But how is the action less shocking than the visual? How is knowing about the Tusken Slaughter any different from seeing the TU guys deaths? Just because GL changed the scene, Anakin still murdered those women and children. Anakin is a killer, a child murderer. He's gone over to the darkside, he just doesn't know it yet.

Similarly, slicing someone in half in a flash-quick death is significantly different than choking a guy in midair for several seconds before causing his throat and skull to implode.
Tell that to the guy who gets the lightsaber! Death is death, and I'm sure having a blade of pure energy pass through you isn't a picnic either.

 

just downloaded all 25 episodes and watched em all , loved every minute of it!!! shame it had to end , but it'll all pick up again in about 54 days time!!!

 

Personally, I think it's fun to pretend that both accounts are true - make believe that the events of the GFFA are being told by multiple storytellers, and like any historical event, there are bound to be inconsistencies in the retelling by different individuals.
That works for a lot of people, but just not for me personally. Like I've said before, that is my problem, not yours. I do think that that view is quite clever and interesting though. Its just that as a person who bases everything in his reality on as much fact and concrete evidence as he can find, its a little difficult for me to look at two different angles and accept them. I feel the need to settle in my mind what I believe to be the 'truth'... I can settle for fun things like infinities that are outside of the normal realm of the existence... but I like for things within that realm to be as clear as possible. That said, it isn't that hard to reconcile the tales anyways, just a tad frustrating to some of us kids.

*These* days, yes, but take a good look at the post-ROTJ EU sometime. The novels are positively riddled with continuity errors that contradict the movies (albeit, some of them are the fault of the PT release dates), each other, and just basic logic and characterization changes. (i.e. How on Earth do so many Imperial superweapons exist past TTT without Thrawn ever mentioning them? Are you really telling me that Mr. Gary Stu know-all, think-all with his resources and intelligence had no idea that these weapons existed and then didn't plan to employ them?)
On this we are quite agreed, although even the more radical things can be reconciled... it'll just take some work. And that is where I have my fun.

Also the important thing is that even with the errors that they have and will continue to make, they at least care to some degree, as the EU is by definition trying to expand on one singular universe.

Anakin is a killer, a child murderer. He's gone over to the darkside, he just doesn't know it yet. Tell that to the guy who gets the lightsaber! Death is death, and I'm sure having a blade of pure energy pass through you isn't a picnic either.
Going with that assumption, then Mace, Obi-Wan and, oh lets just say pretty much ANY Jedi has gone to the darkside. Like you said, death is death.

 

But how is the action less shocking than the visual? How is knowing about the Tusken Slaughter any different from seeing the TU guys deaths? Just because GL changed the scene, Anakin still murdered those women and children.

Visuals are more powerful than words. Accept it. Nobody said Anakin's actions aren't awful - I know I was shocked when I first saw AOTC. This isn't quite near that level of horrifying that the Tusken slaughter was, but it was quite graphic, thus people are moved and discomfited by the scene. And to climb onto your limb of the tree, it also hails back to the loss of control in AOTC and gives us an assaulting sense of déjà vu.


Anakin is a killer, a child murderer. He's gone over to the darkside, he just doesn't know it yet.

No, Anakin has touched and used the dark side. He has yet to be utterly consumed by it. That's why the audience (well, a good portion of us) still empathize with him as a character or at least recognize that we're supposed to. He does wrong, but he *knows* he does wrong and feels bad about it afterwards. What eventually strips away our sympathy is the fact that he fails to control it and eventually succumbs to temptation.

After all, up until a point, how many people do you think would have done the same thing? The Tusken Raiders captured a woman, slaughtered the people who tried to save her, and then tortured her to death. If the women weren't the ones engaging in the practice, then they were supporting it by lack of action. Similarly, the scientists were villainous and cruel in their intent toward the natives, but they were fairly defenseless against a Jedi and retreating when Anakin attacked. Nobody was totally innocent in either conflict (except maybe the Tusken children), hence why the viewer is assaulted by sense of wrongness compounded by emotional empathy.


Tell that to the guy who gets the lightsaber! Death is death, and I'm sure having a blade of pure energy pass through you isn't a picnic either.

For goodness sakes, I didn't say it wasn't shocking. But to me - and I'm sure other people here will agree - watching someone's head implode is alot more grisly than getting a quick beheading. That is all we're saying. Just because it's in character or has been seen worse before doesn't mean it's any less disturbingly evocative.



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That works for a lot of people, but just not for me personally. Like I've said before, that is my problem, not yours. I do think that that view is quite clever and interesting though. Its just that as a person who bases everything in his reality on as much fact and concrete evidence as he can find, its a little difficult for me to look at two different angles and accept them. I feel the need to settle in my mind what I believe to be the 'truth'... I can settle for fun things like infinities that are outside of the normal realm of the existence... but I like for things within that realm to be as clear as possible. That said, it isn't that hard to reconcile the tales anyways, just a tad frustrating to some of us kids.

*shrugs* We agree to disagree, then. I used to be a perfectionist when it came to these things, myself, but after awhile, I just gave up on it. Mind you, I might be a little more antsy about it once I actually get around to reading LoE.


On this we are quite agreed, although even the more radical things can be reconciled... it'll just take some work. And that is where I have my fun.

Also the important thing is that even with the errors that they have and will continue to make, they at least care to some degree, as the EU is by definition trying to expand on one singular universe.

True, and in Lucasfilm's defense, there have been some attempts at retconning and twisting things to make it fit better. (Though I've heard some people disagree with that as well - "just say Oops and move on!" is the motto of a few EU fans I know.) I can also hardly condemn authors like Zahn for having canonical errors when his books were written years bef

 

Especially, considering that he was giving the "evil eye" to all of those aliens walking by on Coruscant in Chapter 21, back when he was just a Padawan...


- only because he knew he was being followed dude

now why he wouldn't know immmediatly that it was Padme, I'll never know..but it made for good drama at least.

 

Going with that assumption, then Mace, Obi-Wan and, oh lets just say pretty much ANY Jedi has gone to the darkside. Like you said, death is death.

No you?ve missed my point completely. Anakin has gone over to the dark side because he let his anger rule him when he killed all the Tuskens. Granted, some of them might have deserved it. But, killing every last one is just wrong. I don?t know about you, but I haven?t seen Mace, Obi-Wan or for that matter another Jedi go on a massive killing spree against helpless women and children.

And what I meant about death is death; is that getting your head cut off by a light saber and being imploded by the Force are both pretty terrible ways to die. There is pain associated with both actions, so neither is favorable. Sure the beheading might be quicker, but you?re still dead.

Visuals are more powerful than words. Accept it. Nobody said Anakin's actions aren't awful - I know I was shocked when I first saw AOTC. This isn't quite near that level of horrifying that the Tusken slaughter was, but it was quite graphic, thus people are moved and discomfited by the scene.

Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words. I agree, but I am more disturbed by the Tusken slaughter then the TU guys deaths even though I couldn?t see the carnage.

After all, up until a point, how many people do you think would have done the same thing? The Tusken Raiders captured a woman, slaughtered the people who tried to save her, and then tortured her to death. If the women weren't the ones engaging in the practice, then they were supporting it by lack of action.

Sure, I would have wanted revenge if my Mother was taken captive and tortured. But how much blood must be spilled in order for that sense of revenge to be fulfilled? Did all those people need to die? I think the answer is no. Anakin lost control over himself, his anger took over and when he began his slaughter, that?s when he began to cross over to the dark side. I would be hard pressed to believe that all of those people had to die for his revenge to be fulfilled.
With regards to the TU Scientists, Anakin?s revenge against them is somewhat justified in that all of those people took part in those inhumane experiments. If captured, they would have stood trial for those war crimes, the same way the Nazi Scientists captured at the end of WW2 did. The difference between the Tuskens and the TU events is that not all the Tuskens should have been held accountable for his Mother?s death, where as all the TU Scientists clearly played a role in altering those Nelvaan Warriors.

With great power, comes great responsibility, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

 

:::- only because he knew he was being followed dude

I know. But it *could* be seen that he's looking at all these 'things' walking by... and doesn't like it.

:::now why he wouldn't know immmediatly that it was Padme, I'll never know..but it made for good drama at least.

Yeah. Like he's not going to feel her presence and all... who knows why? lol

 

Now what if the same scene with the TU guy being crushed with the force was shown in the movie rather than the cartoon. It'd probably be alot more disturbing. And a lot easier to visualize later on than visualizing the tusken massacre which isn't shown on screen.

At an intellectual level, sure, comparing the two events, the Tusken massacre is more disturbing in its scope. But very few people would just have images of that unfilmed occurance just pop into their head, whereas the TU scientist's death has already been spelled out visually. No need to use one's imagination there. That image is bouncing around inside peoples' minds ready to be viewed on a whim.

Without the sensory experience, it is hard to understand events. There is no way that I can even comprehend what war is really like, I've never experienced it. I can read all the history books and first-hand accounts I want and appreciate the effects of war on an intellectual level, but still never fully grasp what kind of a hell a soldier went through.

Seeing is believing. I wont stay up nights thinking about the massacre, but who knows when the image of the guy's head being crushed might pop into my head?

 

:::Now what if the same scene with the TU guy being crushed with the force was shown in the movie rather than the cartoon.

Um... who say's it won't?

That would be so awesome.

Sure, some would consider it 'redundant'...

 

This was a pretty awesome chapter leading right into ROTS,I think it had some of the most amazing saber fighting in the series.

And the jedi had that Damn look when Grevious' arms split

 

I for one was disappointed in Chapter 25. It was cool, but very divergent from the book "Labryinth of Evil", which is supposed to be the "official" version of the events leading up to the Movie. This segment of clone wars just confuses things.

 

Well, since the events in CW apparently are the events in the opening scroll (Spoiler-free so I wouldn't know), I'd say that makes Clone Wars the official version too, doesn't it?

? If CW conflicts with the opening scroll, the opening scroll wins.

? If LoE conflicts with the opening scroll, the opening scroll wins.

? If LoE conflicts with CW, 95% of the movie-going public won't care less.

Come on people, the EU conflicting with itself is hardly news eh? I'm probably biased as I won't be reading LoE until it comes out in paperback (IE after I've seen the movie), but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

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Personally, I dont like the way Plapatine ois abducted, It all seems to muxch like a set up...

Also, does grievous know that palpatine is sidious?

 

Personally, I dont like the way Plapatine ois abducted, It all seems to muxch like a set up...

Also, does grievous know that palpatine is sidious?

It is likely that Grievous doesn't know who Sidious is... (based upon LoE only)

 

Haven't read LoE myself, butI'd gathered pretty much fron CW that GG ain't got a scooby who he's really abducting.

Nice

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