~~Official Expanded Universe Discussion Thread~~ Current Topic: Backlashes against EU characters

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New topic 8/9/04: Mara Jade: Was she the right choice for Luke?

New topic 8/16/04: Zonama Sekot

New topic 8/23/04: Could the Empire have defeated the Yuuzhan Vong?

New topic 8/31/04: The Solo kids and the NJO

New topic 9/7/04: Are droids slaves?

New topic 9/13/04: Had Thrawn united all the Imperial warlords, could they have defeated the New Republic?

New topic 9/20/04: Luke, Leia, and Han

New topic 9/23/04: What if Jacen had never hooked up with Danni?

New topic 9/30/04: Would the Imperials have had a better chance of winning if stormtrooper armor was not white?

New topic 10/11/04: Was it smart to turn Coruscant into one big city?

New topic 10/17/04: Violence in the NJO

New topic 10/27/04: Borsk Fey'lya

New topic 11/1/04: Tenel Ka's destiny

New topic 11/9/04: Was the Republic too large to rule from one place?

New topic 11/19/04: The fan followings and backlashes of EU characters.

 

The first topic of discussion is this:

The Rebel Alliance: What are they really?

freedom fighters? Or bonifide terrorists who are just disgruntled and jealous of the power and order of the Empire? Are they motivated by their inability to hold on to what little power they have left in the Senate? Are they trying to bring back the days of the corrupt and bureaucratic Republic?

What defines them as freedom fighters or terrorists?

 

I'd classify them as freedom fighters. I mean, Alderaan, Toprawa and...the incident where then Captain Tarkin landed his ship on peaceful protestors (Name! I need a name!) were horrific acts. I don't know if I'd have the courage to stand up to beings like them, but I'd like to think I would.

As someone once said(Can't for the life of me remember who). "The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots." (Now that I think about it, I probably got the quote wrong as well...)

EDIT:

Ah, yes. And I believe the US Constitution-or the Declaration of Independence has a provision about replacing the current government if it's not working. I could be wrong on that, though.

 

Well, in the end, the definition of freedom fighter or terrorist depends entirely on which side survives to write the history books.

However, we have the advantage of looking in from the outside.

I'd classify them as freedom fighters.

We have a regime that admits it is ruling by fear. We have a government that destroys planets. We have a leader who is a bloody Dark Lord of the Sith. This climate of tyranny and oppression isn't good for the galaxy. Sure, the Republic wasn't perfect, but order imposed by terror is even less ideal.

 

Freedom Fighters

Evil empire obliterating planets, chasing down the few people opposing them. Yep. Freedom Fighters.

 

Some of them were freedom fighters, and some of them were plain ol' terrists

I understand the alienswanting to rebel, they were oppressed and all, but the humans were just plian ol' terrists They were not being oppressed any more than anyone in a free country today is. They were attacking the empire for no reason besides their simpathy for the aliens, but they had no real cause.

On the not of Alderaan, Tarkin was a nut case, he was the one who ordered the destruction, and since he was the highest ranking officer on the Death Star, no one was allowed to argue with him. Most Imperials have stated that Tarkin was crazy and out of line.

The Empire did have bad qualities, but they weren't much worse than the old republic, and they were much better than the New Republic. They kept the galaxy in relitive order, unlike the NR which had such a weak central government that they pretty much left systems that needed their help to themselves, causing many needless deaths. The only exception to this ignoring is when a key planet like Bothoui or Mon Calimari is in trouble.

I am fairly sure that non humans were allowed to be part of the military, because they were so close to humans. And Grand Admiral Thrawn showed that if you are truly skilled the Empire will let you in despite the anti alien rule. Some officers may not like you, but as long as the Emporer does, you're in. In fact, Thrawn destroyed all of the rebelion's arguments about anti alien bias.


Terrorism, terrorism, terrorism

PS: Great job on the thread, Swan!

 

On page 29 of the JA sourcebook, it talks of Daykim and his 'kingdom'. They all fled because they made accounting errors and would be put to death.

They were all human as well.

 

So, just because you're not the group that's being discriminated against, you shouldn't stand up for them? What kind of world would THAT be, if no one stood up against oppression until it happened to them?

Alderaan was the first planet completely destroyed, but it was far from the first time they had attacked a largely innocent settlements. You needn't look far to find examples of captains ordered to fire on mining colonies that didn't produce as much, or on the homes of the Omwati children who couldn't take the pressure. How many innocent people died of this? What about the accountants from JAT, driven underground because of a simple error? Does that sound like a just government?Good governments don't punish the innocent along with the guilty, nor do they make the punishment grossly out of proportion with the crime.

The Empire was no better than the Republic in helping systems that needed help. If you were strategic, sure. But if it's a minor outpost on the outer rim plagued by pirates, then it didn't really matter. Just look what they did to Bakura, for goodness sake.

Further more...

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

The Rebellion did not attack civilian targets. The same cannot be said of the Empire, however. The Rebellion was also not setting out to instill fear. The Empire ruled by fear. If it weren't for the fact that they were the government of the time, the Empire would have been closer to a terrorist organization than the Alliance.

 

The Rebellion did not attack civilian targets.

coughXizor's PalacecoughThermal DetonatorcoughCivilianscough

The Rebellion did attack civilian targets and neither did they care if civilians got in the way when they targeted military targets too.

 

Striker: Okay that was a bit over the top, but then, no one it perfect, not even the Emporer

Yubs: So, just because you're not the group that's being discriminated against, you shouldn't stand up for them? What kind of world would THAT be, if no one stood up against oppression until it happened to them?

The humans had a right to stand up for the oppressed if they feel it the right thing to do. But since there was no real threat to them (unless they were accountants ), they will be considered terrorists.

Alderaan was the first planet completely destroyed, but it was far from the first time they had attacked a largely innocent settlements. You needn't look far to find examples of captains ordered to fire on mining colonies that didn't produce as much, or on the homes of the Omwati children who couldn't take the pressure. How many innocent people died of this? What about the accountants from JAT, driven underground because of a simple error? Does that sound like a just government?Good governments don't punish the innocent along with the guilty, nor do they make the punishment grossly out of proportion with the crime.

Again, this was Tarkin, he's a nutcase, what the Empire needed to do was psycho-analise all the recruits before they really let them in.

The Empire was no better than the Republic in helping systems that needed help. If you were strategic, sure. But if it's a minor outpost on the outer rim plagued by pirates, then it didn't really matter. Just look what they did to Bakura, for goodness sake.

The Empire never got word of the situation at Bakura. The rebels intercepted the ship with the information first. So we have no idea how the Empire would have reacted to this,

Further more...

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

The Rebellion did not attack civilian targets. The same cannot be said of the Empire, however. The Rebellion was also not setting out to instill fear. The Empire ruled by fear. If it weren't for the fact that they were the government of the time, the Empire would have been closer to a terrorist organization than the Alliance.

As I said the Empire has a lot of spoiled psychos in it, who will blow something up if they lose their lick tube socks Note: the rebellion has attacked civilian targets: The Death Star was mainly a civilian station with many on it, but it also was a base of oporations for the Imperial Navy. Many civilians died in the destruction of the death star. The Second Death star also had civilian targets; all of the people working on the construction were civilians. So the Rebels killed their fair share of civilian targets. Many of the civilians under the rule of the Empire were terrified of the Empire.

 

Okay, I missed on incidence of an escape from the confinement of Black Sun. Still doesn't hold a candle to the "demonstrations" of the Empire on various settlements when they didn't meet their expectations. The Black Sun incident wasn't a case of killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians and inciting fear.

EDIT:

Standing up for the oppressed is NOT terrorism. The mistreatment of one group sooner or later is a threat to all. One day it's the aliens, the next it might be humans from a given planet. It is the duty of those who still have a voice to stand up for the ones who have been deprived of theirs.

Some of the incidents were Tarkin, others were different military commanders.

The Death Star was a battle station. That's not a civilian target. The Imperial Navy was a military organization, ergo their personelle are military as well. A giant weapon is about as military a target as you can GET.

As for Bakura, the Emperor was certainly aware of it. He sold them to the Ssi Ruuk, for goodness sake! He didn't just ignore their plight, he CAUSED it.

 

Yes it was. It was to incite fear into the heart of Xizor, a civilian, if he did not let them go and it was also for revenge against Black Sun, a civilian organization. The end result of tossing a Type-A Thermal Detonator down into the foundations of a massive building caused the deaths of thousands of civilians both inside, around, and below the detonation and collapse zone.

The Rebellion has killed their fair share of civilians both inadvertently and advertly. Two more examples are the Death Stars as mentioned in a previous post above. The Rebellion are not freedom fighters. They may have started out that way but as time progressed they became more and more terrorist like.

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

Also according to that definition, those who are targeting our soldiers in Iraq are not terrorists than even though we call them terrorists. So all in all, the Rebellion are terrorists who claim to be freedom fighters. They do use methods of terror to terrorize Imperial soldiers, officers, politicians, etc into submitting to their demands. The Rebellion is not above in using assassination, a terror method, to gain their goals. They are not above in using bombs against Imperial personnel, which result in the death of civilians that were around the Imperial at the time of detonation.

 

Yay! Soneone is on my side!

Any way, a terrorist orginization cannot be a government; the Empire is a legit government, the rebellion is not.

 

Wait, if Tarkin was such a nutjob, then why, when he was a captain of a ship, did he land on peacefully protesting civilians who were demonstrating against high taxes, instead of being punished by Imperial authorities, was instead promoted to the rank of Moff? And from there, to Grand Moff of nearly the entire Outer Rim Territories?

An insolated commander going looney tunes and no one stopping him also does not excuse the destruction of Alderaan in the slightest. "I was only following orders" is not an excuse to cold-bloodedly commit genocide against an entire planet.

edited for spelling and for an extra point.

 

Actualy, there were only two (four if you count Vader, but he's on the dark side) people could have stopped the process: The people firing the laser, they obviously didn't have any objections, or they didn't know the target, so....

 

If you'll check my edit, I've addressed the fact that the Death Star was FAR from a civilian organization.

And lest we forget, the Empire actively encouraged SLAVERY.

 

The Death Star was a battle station. That's not a civilian target.


No, it was a space station, with quite ubsurd defences, but...


As for the Ssi-Ruuk, I don't remember that the Emporer sold them out. If it is told in that Force Heretic book, then excuse me, I haven't read it yet; I plead ignorance

 

The people firing the laser, they obviously didn't have any objections, or they didn't know the target, so....

How could they not know the target? They were standing right in the room when Tarkin was asking Leia for the location of the base, and he ordered them to fire upon the planet. Anyone in that room who did not realize that they were about to destroy a peaceful planet full of nothing but civillians would quite clearly not be fit to serve under Imperial command--and I would imagine that those who are in charge of firing the laser beam of the Death Star would be among the elite of the elite.

 

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station." Not space station. Battle station.

The Emperor was the one who led the Ssi Ruuk into the galaxy in hopes of getting his hands on their entetchment technology. Which, of course, brings us back to the various forms of slavery promoted by the Empire.

 

I'm talking about the two guys at the control pannel right off of the path where the superlase comes through, they had no idea where they were. For all they knew it was coruscant!

 

No, it was a space station, with quite ubsurd defences, but...

"Until this battle station is fully operational, we are vulnerable."

"Dangerous to your fleet commander. NOT to this battle station."

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."

"This station is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it."

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

I honestly don't see how you can refute the fact that the Death Star was a battle station.

I'm talking about the two guys at the control pannel right off of the path where the superlase comes through, they had no idea where they were. For all they knew it was coruscant!

If you're talking about the tunnel with the guys in it, those guys aren't the ones who fired the superlaser. The ones in the room with Tarkin, Vader, and Leia were the ones who fired the superlaser.

 

He did not say the Death Star was a civilian organization. The Death Star had civilians on board it working to maintain it and other jobs. Who do you think built the Death Stars? Certainly not the military, but civilian contractors who used Wookiee slave labor to construct the first one, droids and other people the second one.

And I believe I have read somewhere that the gunners did not know they were blowing up Alderaan. But it doesn't matter anyway. Alderaan was also a military target as well as a civilian target. Alderaan supplied the rebellion its equipment, money, support, and soldiers. Please direct your attention to the uniforms of the rebel guards standing at the doors of the Massassi Temple and the Alderaanian guards on board the Tantive IV. As you can see they are exactly the same uniform.

And while we are on slavery and oppression, ask yourself why is the Empire oppressing and enslaving non-humans? Why? Because of the Confederation during the Clone Wars thats why. A rebellion that consisted mostly of aliens. A rebellion that forced the then Republic to enact laws against aliens. All in all, the rebellions of the Clone Wars and the Civil War caused the problems which they were fighting to stop. The more they rebelled, the tighter the restrictions became and the more oppressed people got and the more prejudice humans became.

You can't tell me that no body during the clone wars hated what the Confederation did to the galaxy. You can't tell me that no body blames the aliens, who rebelled against an established government of 25,000 years, for all the pain and misery caused by the war which they started. You can't tell me all that and say they did not bring it on themselves when they did.

 

A confederacy that, in the end, had Palpatine himself pulling its strings. You're justifying the opression using something the Emperor himself engineered.

Furthermore, you're justifying SLAVERY. Even if there was resentment towards the aliens in the Confederacy, how does that justify treating sentient beings as if they were mere objects?

Where were the Wookies in the Confederacy? The Mon Calamri? These races were enslaved, oppressed, and mistreated, simply because they were not human and therefore weren't to the liking of the Empire. Yet they thought they might be of use to them, and so they used them as if they weren't thinking, feeling beings.

 

There is no justification for slavery, oppression, and discrimination.

 

How in the world do you manage to call the Death Star a Civilian Station? Just because a few civilians happen to be on board doesnt make it a civilian target. If a couple civilians happen to be in Fort, does that make the fort, with (for example) 100,000 soldiers or other military people and a couple dozen civilians, does that make the fort a civilian target? If it does, then practically every battle in the history of this planet has been against a civilian target.
As R_o_T detailed, the movie CLEARLY calls the Death Star a battle station, and thus a MILITARY target.

The Confederacy, since it was orchestrated by none other than Palpatine himself, cannot be used to justify ANYTHING the Empire does. And nothing at all can justify slavery. Besides which, lets look at this example: the Mon Calamari. In the Clone Wars Cartoons, they are shown to be fighting WITH the Republic. Yet they are still enslaved, along with Wookiees and countless other species.

Alderaan supplied the rebellion its equipment, money, support, and soldiers.

Wrong. A number of people from Alderaan did oppose the Empire, Leia and Bail among them. Alderaan itself had disarmed well before the events of ANH - "we have no weapons". A handful of people do not dictate the entire planet. Would any Americans out there like the entire country to be considered terrorists because of somebody named Timothy McVeigh? I would think not.
Also, there were several Alderaanian pilots in the Imperial military as well. Does this mean Alderaan was supporting the Empire?

The people who fired the laser... the responsibility goes primarily to Tarkin & co., but the actual gunners (i.e. the people who hit the buttons) are not blameless, either. They had to know what they were firing, and how powerful it was. The only likely targets for the Death Star are planets. Even if they didn't know where they were, they still knew what they were firing.

For all they knew it was coruscant!

Which is how many times worse?

Rebels = Freedom Fighters

The Empire, as a legitimate government, cannot technically be terrorists, but are no better than terrorists.