main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Official Thread: Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Ben R, Jun 5, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    All of that was depicted in the PT. And it was "before" he turned to evil, not "until" he turned to evil, but nice try. The fact remains that Shaw clashes with the timeline implied by ANH/TESB, while the PT does not.
     
  2. BarkingFrog

    BarkingFrog Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2009
    I really don't get how people can get so worked up over this. It's not as if they completely removed Sebastian Shaw from the film. He's still in the scene that could easily be considered the emotional climax of the saga.

    For the final edit of the film, I think they should just get Hayden Christensen, make him look 20 years older, shoot new footage and put him in there. I don't see why anybody should really have a problem with it.

    Anakin was never a 70 year old man.
     
  3. haljordan33

    haljordan33 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2008
    Arawn,,,

    "you're uncle didn't agree with your fathers ideas. He thought he should have STAYED HERE AND NOT GOTTEN INVOLVED"

    "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough BUT YOUR UNCLE WOULDN"T ALLOW IT. HE FEARED YOU MIGHT FOLLOW OLE OBI-WAN ON "SOME DAMN FOOL IDEALISTIC CRUSADE LIKE YOUR FATHER DUD"

    All that was shown?

    let us also add...

    ben- "thats your uncle talking" (ben clearly knows owen fairly well from this comment"

    Lukes just not a farmer. he has too mnuch of his father in him "THAT"S WHAT I AM AFRAID OF"

    Leia remebering her REAL MOTHER. and not this force image garbage. She clearly is old enough to remeber he being a sad person who is kind and beautiful.

    Also if you look at the 10th star wars annivaersary mag of starlog LUCAS SAYS luke and leia will be in episode3 at three and a half yrs old. the exact age where a child would have just fragmented memories of their mothers. hence leias short memory of her.


    ben tells luke straight out 'YOU WERE BOTH HIDDEN FROM YOUR FATHER WHEN YOU WERE BORN"
    this is another plot hole. watch revenge of the sith with the commentary turned on and LUCAS himself says obi-wan leaves the lava bank thinking that anakin is DEAD. DEAD. So how/why would they be hidden from someoine they believe to be dead?

    I could keep going and going and going.

    JUNK!

    Did lucas even bother watching the original 3 before writing this garbage? I think not. He couldn't have because such plot holes either show sheer stupidity or flat out nopt caring.
     
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That's what I said.

    He can see and hear that he's not dead as he's walking away! He thinks he's going to die.

    We weren't told anything about what he was thinking at the time of hiding the children, a different event entirely. You're overlooking something.
     
  5. haljordan33

    haljordan33 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2008
    WRONG!

    ben tells luke in return of the jedi.

    "to protect you both you were hidden FROM YOUR FATHER WHEN YOU WERE BORN"

    Lucas in the revenge of the sith commentary says "obi-wan belives anakin is dead as he walks away from the lave pit"

    watch both scenes and you will see for yourself.

    ooop! no way to spin this one big guy.
     
  6. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    In all fairness, that WAS the same speech in which Obi-Wan tried equivocating metaphorical truth with physical fact and told Luke that he HAD to kill Vader or else the Emperor had won.

    I guess Obi-Wan's just pretty full of crap in RotJ...
     
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    So Obi-Wan learned Vader survived and endeavored to keep the children hidden from him as well as the Emperor.
     
  8. haljordan33

    haljordan33 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2008
    he learned an hr or two after walking away from the lava pit that anakin had survivied? that is nothing more than something you are making up in your mind to try and make it make sense and not cause a plot hole.

    any other time lucas's words are GOLD to you and not to be questioned. in the commentary he says flat out that as obi-wan leaves he belives that anakin is dead.

    is lucas lying go-mer? it's a plot hole. clear and simple.
     
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Why would he have to find out in a couple of hours? As long as he found out Vader was alive in the time between then and ANH, then it would be perfectly natural for him to say he hid them from him.

    I don't think it's a problem to question Lucas, it's just you might want to figure out the answers to some of your questions instead of just throwing your arms in the air and proclaiming it doesn't make sense.

    Still if you want to just throw your arms up and declare it just doesn't make sense, you can do that too.

    It's just people who understand it will tell you it makes sense.
     
  10. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Everything hal points out is exactly what I was getting at. From the Anakin should have stayed here and not gotten involved, to Ben saying he hasn't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born.

    NONE of this was portrayed in the PT, regardless of how much you want it to be.
     
  11. haljordan33

    haljordan33 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2008
    lol my god.

    it DOES NOT make sense to tell luke 'you were both hidden from your father when you were born" when at the time they were born he belived anakin to be dead.

    He could have just said to protect you both you were hidden from the emperor when you were born.

    this is a plot hole. clear and simple. from pooorly written scenes in the prequels.

    if you want to sit there and try and come up with and make up 100 different ways to try and make it make sensr then you go right ahead. see go-mer thats the difference between fans like me and fans like you. I love star wars enough to expect and demand quality and for this type of crap no to happen and when it does happen you are damn right I throw my arms up and want a reason why it happend. I don't sweeep it under the carpet like you doi and just dismiss it by making up fantasies in my head to try and make things make sense.

    it is what it is and all the day dreaming on your part won't change it. it's a plot hole. you can thank the poorly writen scripts in the prequels for that. Along with dozens of other plot holes.
     
  12. Brandon Rhea

    Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2004
    We discuss the films, not the fans. You've just earned the thread its second strike.

    One more and this thing gets locked.
     
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Question redirected through PM's.

    Sorry about that.
     
  14. Brandon Rhea

    Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2004
    If you'd like to comment on my warnings and the circumstances surrounding them, Go-Mer, please take it to PMs. Thanks. :)
     
  15. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    I'm guessing you don't read the books. Hint: think of words starting with F.

    [face_plain]Is this thing on?

    Ben saying he hasn't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born is in no way a plothole. Think about the implications if Ben were to be painfully specific here. The Owen thing was hinted at in AOTC and is not contradicted in any way by the PT.
     
  16. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    They're not plot holes so much as things that redefine OT Ben's character from a trustworthy mentor to a guy who is full of crap half the time he opens his mouth.
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Yes, we know Ben is TEH LIAR. But we're talking about things that aren't necessarily false.
     
  18. xx_Anakin_xx

    xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2008
    I agree. I like the new ending a lot. I have given many reasons over time, but you know, the bottom line was it was a cool and wicked surprise to see Hayden in the place where the older man had been before. I dug the change a lot in the moment I saw it, before thinking about what it might mean and all that stuff. I think after the PT, it just sealed the deal and drew all 6 movies together for me in that moment. So even though I think it does make more sense for other reasons, I think the bottom line is I just dug the change. To be honest, they could have tossed in Ewen too - that would have been like a double whammy and cool too. But young Anakin was enough to draw everything back into a nice tight circle for me.
     
  19. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    Yeah, who needs continuity? I guess the visual tie-in to the PT is what George was going for and it worked on many people. I choose to dig deeper and look for true meaning though. The change is wrong, plain and simple. If George sticks Ewan in the ghost scene I will officially be done with Star Wars once and for all. Enough is enough.
     
  20. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    We are not dealing with a situatione where all we have is our own viewpoints, there are several other facts as well.

    All that you have to support your version is that Shawm as the ghost, has his hair and limbs back which he did not have when he died. However an easy explanation for that exists within the OT films. Force ghost Obi-Wan did not have any wounds either so when you die and become a Force ghost then your wounds are healed.

    What I have in my corner is the fact that Shaw, as the ghost, is far too old to be Anakin BEFORE the turn. Shaw was over 70 and although I do not think he looks 70, at best I would say he looks 50. So Shaw as the ghost does not fit with a pre-turn Anakin do him being far too old.

    So your theory is not supported by the evidence, mine is.
    So the more probable explanation is that Lucas simply changed his mind as opposed to him always intending to have a young ghost.

    Also you still have not answered me, why didn't Lucas hire a younger actor to play both scenes in 83 if he intended Anakins ghost to look young? Actors younger than 70 can acto too you know.


    It changes much more than this, it breaks established logic with no explanation given.
    Also if Anakin just goes back to who he was moments before the turn then where is the growth, the arch to his character? He just reverts back to the angry, arrogant, confused young man he used to be? Complete with a murderous temper and serious problems with attachments.

    Anakin before the turn was a severly flawed person that had done terrible things, then he embraced evil and betrayed all that he held dear. Then in RotJ he is finally able to overcome his own fear and hate and put an end to his masters evil as well as his own. He destroys his master out of love for his son and pays the ultimate price in doing so.
    He dies a much better man and a better jedi than he had ever been before.
    That is the person I think that we should remember, not the murderous young man that embraced evil for his own selfish reasons.


    You tell me, you are the one going on about Obi-Wan and Yoda never actually dying and just snapping their fingers and dissapearing. Tell me, since Yoda and Obi-Wan are not really dead, could they pop back into the world with their physical bodies?
    Or perhaps this "joining the Force at will" means they do die and then vanish? But that sounds like they killed themselves, suicide.


    People have been using what Obi-Wan said when Luke asks why he told him that Vader killed his father. Lukes father is not dead so Vader never killed him.
    Obi-Wan tries to get around this by saying that Anakin died a metaphorical death. That when he turned to the dark side and became Vader, the good man that was Anakin was destroyed. However what they and you miss is that Obi-Wan was WRONG. The good man that was Anakin never was destroyed, he was there all along under the Vader mask. His good side never died, sure it was buired under layers of hate, fear and evil but it was there.
    Luke says it best, Ana
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Potato, potatto.

    Still in denial of the concept of metaphor after all this time... Lucas pwns you.

    Tell that to Alderaan. Or Captain Antilles.
     
  22. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    No, we're talking about things that weren't necessarily false until the PT showed them to be so. "Hidden from your father when you were born" is clearly inaccurate, because when the children were born the good guys clearly believe Vader to be dead.

    If anyone's confused about what metaphor means it's you. Metaphor =/= factual reality. If it did, it wouldn't be a metaphor; it would be a factual description. "Vader killed Anakin" is a metaphor for what REALLY happened, which is that Anakin gave into the dark side and abandoned all the good things about his personality.

    In case you're still having trouble, here's a non-SW example so that maybe emotions don't cloud your understanding: "This necktie is killing me," which is a metaphor for expressing a high level of discomfort. It doesn't mean that the speaker is literally going to die if something isn't done about the necktie.
     
  23. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    How do you just shrug off such a valid point?

    Quoted out of context, like always. He didn't die, metaphorically or otherwise. The proof is in the movie.

    He's not talking about the death of the people on Alderaan or Captain Antilles, is he? He's referring to Anakin and only Anakin.
     
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The PT in no way showed any of them to be "necessarily false". Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    You're not inside their heads and you have no way of proving what they do or do not believe. In fact, they refer to the Sith, instead of just saying "the Emperor" or "Palpatine". And there's that teensy little plot point you may have forgotten about...

    [face_talk_hand]Now you're confusing me with those who pretend metaphorical statements must be accurate if taken literally for no apparent reason.

    Congratulation! =D= I never actually watched the films myself, so it's good to have someone fill me in on the details of what happened.
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That never happened. Maybe you're not getting it.

    No one can ever die metaphorically as long as you continue to insist that the definition of "metaphorical" is the same as the definition of "literal" in order to prop up your failing stance. Lucas says otherwise, and he's the authority.

    [face_laugh] Anakin never met Captain Antilles, did he?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.