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CT Original trilogy theatrical version

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Vader fan 99, May 16, 2019.

  1. StarYogi

    StarYogi Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    I cringed.
     
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  2. Vader fan 99

    Vader fan 99 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 6, 2019
    That scene wasn't even in the original film. Why did Lucas add it to the special editions?
     
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  3. StarYogi

    StarYogi Jedi Master star 2

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    Nov 18, 2005
    Maybe it was to show off more of the CG modeling technology they were trying out in order to give a taste for what they were working on with prequel trilogy, which was in production at that time. It was also an attempt at fan service.

    I talked in more detail about my dislike for this scene over on this thread:
    https://boards.theforce.net/threads...d-best-changes.50033907/page-14#post-55777262
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  4. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    GL wanted it in the original release, they just ran out of time/money/special effects tricks to get it in there.
     
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  5. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Boba Fett did not exist until 1978. So if someone insists that he was introduced in Star Wars theatrical 1977, no, that's ANH SE 1997.
     
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  6. R.D.

    R.D. Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 26, 2015
    Funnily enough, I bought some VHS copies of an early 90s OT release not too long ago, and watched them with a friend.

    Seeing the original fighter battle at the end of ANH...I can definitely see why Lucas CGed over that, it's certainly rather unrefined next to the clashes of the rest of the OT. The friend I was watching it found the lack of the Jabba scene rather jarring, though he's only ever seen the SE. Neither of us cared that much about Han shooting first tbh.

    Seeing the original version, ROTJ's changes are more where I start seeing why people complain--yeah, put me down for also kinda preferring Lapti Nek.
     
  7. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000

    State of the art in 1976.
     
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  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Not so sure about that.
    From what I know, Lucas decided fairly early to remove the scene as it had not all that much new to add.
    The Greedo scene covered most of it and some stuff was moved from the Jabba scene to the Greedo scene when the Jabba scene was going to be cut.
    I think Lucas felt the first part was getting a bit long so he cut some stuff, like the Luke/Biggs scenes.
    This might also have been a scene that got cut for that reason.

    As for effects, I doubt that Jabba was supposed to be an effect or creature. At the very least, slug Jabba had not been designed yet.
    The way it was filmed would, with an actor there, would make it difficult to put an effect over him.
    Plus the fact that they filmed the scene with an actor in costume suggests that Jabba was supposed to look like this at the time.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  9. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    GL:
    "When I first shot the scene with Jabba the Hutt, I knew I was going to create some kind of stop-motion creature...I had to have somebody--an actor--play the part so Harrison had someone to play against, so we just picked a big guy and put him in a fuzzy vest. I, at that point, felt that he may be a character somewhat like Chewbacca, a big furry character. We shot that. As we were cutting the movie, [we] realized relatively quickly that we didn't have the time or the money to actually shoot that scene [the stop-motion optical]. That ILM was pressed way beyond what it could pull off as it was. So I had to abandon that sequence pretty early on. I had to cut back on special effects shots and that sort of thing because ILM just couldn't handle it."

     
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  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    And this makes no sense, if Lucas wanted to put a creature there, then having an actor there would just make it a LOT harder.
    The normal way this is done is to film the scene with an actor for reference and then for real with no actor where the creature is supposed to be.
    Having the actor there and in costume, which is also unneeded, and having Han very close to him and walking around him. That way would make putting an effect there extremely difficult.
    So if Lucas wanted to put a creature there, he would have filmed just Han talking to nothing.
    The actor could be used for rehearsal. Not filmed with the intent of putting an effect over him.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  11. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    I prefer the original Battle of Yavin to the CGI fest of the SEs. All the ships look more solid, and their motion feels more realistic.
     
  12. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    CGI pulls me out. It is not seamless, at all.
     
  13. PymParticles

    PymParticles Marquis de Nouveaux Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2014
    I still think the original Battle of Yavin looks great, the issue is without a proper restoration the compositing looks flat. The below videos show what the scene looks like before and after restoration, and I think the "after" (which is how the shots should look) still looks amazing over 40 years later.



     
  14. ForceGhostPrincessLeia

    ForceGhostPrincessLeia Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 22, 2018
    This is an interesting video about the SE, but Jabba in ANH is addressed at the 5:00 mark.
     
  15. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Personally, I have no problem with footage that's a little dirty, grainy, or jumpy. That stuff reminds me of WW2 gun camera footage. Makes it more real to me.
     
  16. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    IMO, too much lingering over Mike Verta products can have the same negative effect on mental health as Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook and Twitter. His Silmarils will only ever be beheld by the top 0.01% of Star Wars consumers, which is to say, exceedingly rare owners of 35mm original reels, and executives who have a golden cash cow to protect at all costs.
     
  17. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    So this is why I think the Special Edition should have been its own entity and not the default release. Fans were rightfully ecstatic to see new footage and state of the art digital effects in 1997, but the original film had nearly perfect pacing by delicately deciding which plot threads were essential and the proper sequence to show them in. The Jabba scene was already discarded by the time the pickup shots were being filmed (as you noted); the articulated Greedo mask now reiterated what Jabba said, sometimes verbatim.

    So I would totally approve of a Special Edition in the same way the Lord of the Rings films offer the extended cuts as an alternative to the theatrical version. Fans would eat up a three hour cut; with something as time-tested as Star Wars, there's no question the interest is there.
     
  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    First, about the SE in 97, Lucas has said some things that don't quite match.
    For ex he claimed that Greedo was always supposed to shoot first and that they tried to film it like that but due to effects not working, we got what wound up in the finished film.
    Not only is this not supported by anything else, the script makes no mention of Greedo shooting first or at all.
    But other people that worked on the film deny that they tried to film it with Greedo shooting first and if that had been the goal, they could easily have done so.
    So what he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

    But secondly, the way the Jabba scene was filmed originally makes the idea that they planned to add a stop-motion effect on afterwards totally senseless.
    1. Design of Jabbba. As far as I know, there was no finished design for Jabba back in 1976/77. The script had a description and the Marvel comic adaption had Jabba in it. Neither of which would call for a stop motion puppet. It could be done using a guy in a mask which would have been both cheaper and easier. And since the original film did not have lots of money, why go for a more expensive method when it isn't needed?
    Also, in what you posted, they say that Jabba had not been designed yet. So why on Earth would they film the scene without a clear idea what the creature was going to look like?
    In the case when an effect is added on later, you still need to make sure eye-lines match and so on.
    Filming it with no clear idea what Jabba was supposed to look like is idiotic.

    2. They cast an actor and made a costume for him. If they were just using him as a stand-in, this is needlessly expensive. Again, the film did not have a huge budget so why waste money like this?
    If a creature or effect is supposed to be added, then have just some member of the crew act as a stand-in when rehearsing the scene and have someone give the lines off-camera when they film the scene.

    3. When filming scenes where an effect is supposed to be added on later, having an actor there and having Han walking around him and touching him, that just makes the job of adding the effect later MUCH harder. The way this is usually done is to shoot the scene with no Jabba there and Han is talking to air.
    They even say in the clip you posted that Han walking around Jabba presented a big problem for the animators.
    So again, if a creature was supposed to be added on later, having an actor there and Han so close, makes it a totally impractical way to film the scene.

    4. The Greedo scene was altered when they decided to cut the Jabba scene, so this change came pretty early.

    In closing, I may be able to accept that Lucas wanted Jabba as a creature before they started filming but dropped the idea when it would be too expensive or unfeasible and just went with a regular actor instead.
    Remember, Jabba has lots of dialogue and doing that much talking with a stop-motion puppet would be tricky and might not look that good.
    Then he decided to drop the whole scene as it didn't really add anything and what was needed was shifted to the Greedo scene.
    I do not for a moment think that what was filmed was done so with the intent of adding a creature later.
    Lucas would not be so stupid as to film it like that if that was his intent.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  19. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    Ok, fine, just watched that SE BTS. My eyes, the game cut scenes!

    Howie Long's Teleprompter 5:12 is the legerdemain to make one think that ROTJ Jabba was intended to be presented in SW77, but could not because of expense. Howie Long's Teleprompter could have said something like, "The dream was to x, but they knew better early on and went ahead with y, just in case, knowing full well that x and y were incompatible. And then they were unhappily pretty sure that y wasn't going to be the final compelling look or feel that they wanted. So they went with scene z with Greedo. Their total losses was some production time, some actor salary and a few costumes that were orders of magnitude less expensive than the stage set. In other words, they didn't lose a whole lot except some premium Harrison Ford. And that's actually what they're selling - premium Harrison Ford."

    Lucas 5:20, taken by itself, does not require that the viewer think that Lucas set out at any earliest possible point thinking that he would easily mask out the human actor. It says he realized, early on, that such an endeavor would not work.

    5:52 Mouth of Sauron inflates the importance of the Jabba scene by saying it was "important to put back". No, it was not important to put back just because the second film was successful. It was an interesting option to attempt make it look like it was trying to be put back. And it had premium Harrison Ford.

    6:05 Joseph Letteri's words are exploited to form the next legerdemain. He is given the mic to explain what his job is (his full job title is Visual Effects Supervisor for Special Edition and Sir Not Appearing In Any Capacity In 1977 Credit Roll But Who Does Go Back At Least As Far As The Abyss 1989). The BTS editing then causes the impression that the straightforward limited scope of what he was responsible for, by his own words, takes on ponderous historical scope as if his job in 1994/5/6 was intended back in 1976. The exact moment this association is deliberately created is 6:10 when the word "plan" occurs exactly when the words "1976 Backplate" appear over the original footage.

    6:25 Joseph Letteri lets slip (honestly) the tell that the existence of his role does not extend backwards in time to 1976. He says, "The ultimate goal's to make it look like Jabba was on the set..." A casual listen that was imprinted with the deliberate association of "plan" and "1976 Backplate" could be forgiven for assuming, without critical thought, that he used a contraction, "The ultimate goal was to make it look like Jabba was on the set..."
     
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  20. R.D.

    R.D. Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 26, 2015
    Hmm, I see what you mean, though I refer to a lot of the dogfighting manoeuvring, which didn't look as dynamic or fluid as Empire or Jedi. Personally, I felt the CG spacecraft in the SE blended reasonably well with the rest of the film--mechanical things like ships turn out well digitally--moreso than the dewbacks and that random ronto.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  21. sith_rhino

    sith_rhino Jedi Master star 2

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    Jul 9, 2007
    Is this that version that came out several years ago (I think you had to buy the the 2006 Original Trilogy box set to get) and are nonanamorphic with a 4:3 aspect ration?
     
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  22. Vader fan 99

    Vader fan 99 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 6, 2019
    Yes, they are two discs editions with the 2004 special edition on one disc and theatrical on the other disc.
     
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  23. sith_rhino

    sith_rhino Jedi Master star 2

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    Jul 9, 2007
    I'm so glad that I've still got VHS tapes from the 1980's. The quality's not good, unfortunately, but at least it's unaltered and the correct aspect ratio.
     
  24. Encuentro

    Encuentro Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 8, 2013
    I believe that the aspect ratio for the VHS tapes is 4:3 as well, as most televisions in the 80s were CRT TVs that were made for 4:3. Today’s widescreen televisions will take the 4:3 image and stretch it out to fill the screen. I have the 2006 DVDs with the bonus non-anamorphic theatrical version DVDS, and despite everything I’ve read about the non-anamorphic DVD versions having black bars on the left and right of the television screen, this is not the case for me, regardless of the setting I am using on my television. I’ve checked every setting, and there isn’t a single setting on my television in which the black bars appear. However, if I play them on my laptop, the black bars do appear. In any event, the 2006 theatrical version DVDs are widely considered to be the best official releases of the theatrical versions currently available. Hopefully, that will change soon.
     
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  25. Vader fan 99

    Vader fan 99 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 6, 2019
    I wish I had my old vhs copies and a vhs player. I've only had the 2011 remasters for the last several years
     
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