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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

...originals vs. prequel trilogy, at last the truth!...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by flowerlandsmarty, Dec 7, 2008.

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  1. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    You wouldn't believe in evil at all then would you?
     
  2. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Now that I agree with.
     
  3. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 30, 2005
    You didn't root for Palpatine? Not even a little? I'm a far cry from an agnostic moral relativist, but I was definitely wearing a smile, watching him bring the Senate down on poor, little Yoda. He deserved his success, that crafty old rotter.
     
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Only a little. Yes, he has some good scenes. Most in ROTS, which I like anyway!
    No.
     
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    That's ironic of you. ;)

    At the end of the day the people who didn't like the prequels as much as the classic trilogy were right.

    They didn't like them as much.

    That said, I enjoyed them and thought they were as good if not better than the classic trilogy installments.

    I have been here at these boards defending Lucas and his prequels since '99 and every complaint I have heard from others have struck me as a double standard (ie complaining about the acting or dialogue in the prequels when the classic trilogy had it's share of these same issues as well), or things I just don't think are problems myself.

    I felt Lucas did better with each film he put out. The classic trilogy suffered the most from his "I'm making this up as I go" approach, as he of course didn't know while making ANH that Leia would end up being Luke's sister for example. By the time he got to the prequels, he had the whole story basically together enough that he just needed to fill in the blanks. So when he was making TPM, he pretty much knew how things would end in Episode III.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the classic trilogy, I just feel they are just as flawed as any of the prequel films.

    I also think some people just have a hard time sharing these films with their target audience: "children".

    Even though none of these "issues" are legitimate to me, they are legitimate to the people who have them.

    I feel bad that a lot of Star Wars fans grew away from the series, and seem to think the classic trilogy was somehow of a completely different mold, but there isn't much I can do about beyond explaining why I don't share those problems.
     
  6. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    I didn't mean that they become invalid. People feel how they feel and I respect that. My point was that if you read half the threads around the JC you get the same points as in the link posted, so why bother making an entire thread that repeats the same stuff? What is noteworthy here? Same old, same old, is what I was trying to express. Besides which, it becomes hard to discuss this stuff in the first place because its simply subjective about what you consider "good" or "bad" filmmaking; the closest you can really come to making objective statements is to take a reference from our common standards, in which case we simply end up appealing to the majority viewpoint that ANH and ESB had much stronger writing than the prequels by evidence of the fact that most viewers and critics seem to feel this way. But if you feel as you do then this doesn't really account for squat, so whats the point of having the discussion in the first place when people already go around in these circles in so many other threads anyways?
     
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    I was just giving you a hard time. I didn't mean that seriously.
     
  8. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    So if you don't believe in evil, people can't really be evil in any circumstance can they?
     
  9. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    I really don't think many people have a problem with the notion that these films are targeted at children. The problems are these:

    -Defenders of the PT often use it a catch-all an excuse to dismiss any criticism as automatically invalid because it comes from someone outside the target audience. If an five-year-old accidentally saw American Pie and pointed out that in one scene a plastic cup changes from clear to blue and back to clear again, you wouldn't dismiss their point just because the film was intended for adults.

    -The "targeted at children" defense becomes HIGHLY ironic given the frequency with which PT defenders tout the prequels' political and moral ambiguities as among the films' greatest strengths. Why oh why would films targeted at children devote so much time to subtextual ambiguities that will surely sail above the heads of most children?

    -"Children" is a loose term. I was thirteen when TPM came out, by any reasonable definition a child. I thought Jar-Jar and his antics were lame and unfunny. For "targeted at children" to be an excuse for my negative reaction, one would have to argue that "targeted at children" means "targeted ONLY at very young children", which is NOT something I think all that many people would agree with.

    -There's a big difference between "targeted at children (as well as children-at-heart)" and "targeted exclusively at children". Shows like Blue's Clues and The Wiggles are targeted exclusively at children; an older person can appreciate how the show appeals to children, but it's difficult for a non-child to enjoy. I would guess that even the majority of PT defenders feel that Star Wars is targeted at children AND children-at-heart, in the same manner as films like Hook and E.T.
     
  10. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Those two have always seemed somewhat contradictory to me. I buy the argument that they're targeted towards children, but don't so much buy the moral ambiguity argument. Lucas may have intended it, but it doesn't show up within the films themselves. We never see that there are heroes on both sides, the Jedi are clearly good, and the Sith are clearly evil.
     
  11. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2007


    =D= =D= This is the greatest post I have ever read =D= =D=


    To the OP I read your comments and if I had to choose one word to describe them I'd say pathetic

     
  12. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2007
    I think this guy said it best

    "Growing up watching Star Wars has absolutely nothing to do with cinematic achievement and compelling filmmaking. The original trilogy had those two qualities going for them; the new trilogy simply does not.

    You can make a fanboy argument for the new trilogy, sure. That is your opinion, and that is your right. But making any kind of claim about the cinematic merit of the new prequel films will quickly put you on the bottom rung of any cinéaste?s ladder.

    Simple experiment: Watch The Empire Strikes Back alongside another great film, say, The Godfather. Then watch Episode II. ?Empire? is among the greats, meaning, the great films?films that are powerful and beautifully crafted, both technically and artistically. The same just cannot be said for any of the prequel films.

    Now, don?t get me wrong: I appreciate things about the prequels and what Lucas did with the Star Wars story, but I cannot keep a straight face when I try to say they are good or great films."

    QFT.
     
  13. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Indeed. I will use the word in the broad descriptive sense if necessary but I still won't believe in the concept.

    Hmm, do you want to psychoanalyse me? Because that's going to take lots of time (because I have an eccentric personality) and doesn't really tie with the topic.
     
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I don't understand how people can watch the classic trilogy and pretend they are on another level of cinematic greatness.

    According to Rotten Tomatoes, the prequels were better reviewed during their original releases, so how some people act like suggesting the prequels were just as well put together are automatically out of sync with the world's cinematic taste is beyond me.

    It's almost like because they don't see the cinematic merit to the prequels, it can't exist.
    I would dismiss their point as having no bearing on the movie. If a slight continuity error like that defaults a movie to "sucks" status, then that's that particular viewer's problem, not mine.
    Because the movies endear themselves to children then as they grow older they will better appreciate the political undertones. The point is, it can't just be about the adult stuff, it has to also entertain kids, which is why we get the more light hearted moments that make many older people cringe.
    13 is when you are transitioning between child and adult, and it's possible that the reason you found Jar-Jar particularly abrasive is because he reminded you of the childish antics you were trying to distance yourself from in an effort to be more "grown up". I could be wrong, but that's a fairly common phenomenon around that age.
    It is. So if you aren't young or young at heart, you may not like them.
     
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  15. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2007
    Thats just like you Go-mer and the other PT defenders. If anyone's opinion is different than yours they are wrong. :rolleyes:
     
  16. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 1999
    That RT study, BTW, is wrong. The PT was reviewed way worse than the OT. You only need to have lived through 1999 to realise that, and the summer of 2002 was not much better. That study raised eyebrows from the day it was posted but few actually examined how they collected data and how they rated the samples. Granted, ROTJ, and to a lesser degree ESB, had a bigger share of detractors than you might expect, but that whole "PT reviewed better" thing is entirely untrue, for a multitude of reasons.
     
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    If you only lived through the release of the prequels, then you wouldn't know.

    You had to be there to read the reviews written at the time of the original trilogy's initial theatrical release to know this rotten tomatoes article is accurate.

    During the release of the special editions in 97, suddenly everyone is a joseph campbell expert and the classic trilogy is suddenly cinematic gold.

    The same will happen for the prequels given enough time.

    I'm not saying people who don't agree with my opinions are wrong. Saying the prequels couldn't be held in the same esteem as the classic trilogy is inaccurate.
     
    Green Gogol likes this.
  18. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 1999
    No, Go-Mer. Look at the source of RT prequel ratings--most of them are websites run by fanboys. CHUD, AICN, FilmThreat, IGN, etc. These account for a huge proportion of the rating. Where do the OT reviews come from? Time, Newsweek, Chicago Sun Times, Washington Post; sources like these. RT has a feature to balance out their web-based majority for contemporary reviews--a "top critics" selection. This filters out websites and takes the rating from the more legitimate sources like Rolling Stone, New York Times, Newsweek and the major newspapers. Since these are the ONLY sources for the OT, this is the only comparison we can make. When this happens, we see that the ratings of the PT drop dramatically when we consider legitimate critics and not amature internet critics. ROTS--"better reviewed than SW!"--drops all the way down to 68% IIRC, and TPM and AOTC rate somewhere around 30%. This is closer to the reaction you would have read if you actually picked up a newspaper or magazine in May of 1999, 2002 and 2005. Which is that TPM was awful, AOTC was equally lame but that ROTS was surprisingly watchable.

    There are many more faults in making this OT-PT comparison as well but this baseline one here pretty much invalidates RT's conclusions on its own.
     
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    Not really. Your attempt to debunk it falls flat for someone who lived through the originals theatrical releases.

    ANH was the only one that got much critical praise. By the time ROTJ came out, the other kids in school were telling me the whole series was for babies.
     
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  20. zombie

    zombie Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 1999
    But that doesn't address the distinction I made. Its not that the RT rates the OT too low--although, based on my own much more thorough study, it does--but that the PT is actually rated much lower. Even if you accept that ANH-ESB-ROTJ got 79-52-36 (or whatever the precise numbers are), a comparison with the PT gets the newer films at something like 32-31-68.
     
  21. DBrennan3333

    DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2004
    Well, aside from professional critics (not that I need their approval to enjoy something), it's worth pointing out that the box office for the PT was dramatically less than the box office for the OT (after adjusting for inflation).

    In fact, AOTC was the first SW movie not to even be the top movie of its year....it was number three.

    For the record, though, I enjoy all the SW movies. I think that if Lucas hadn't crammed 80% of the story into ROTS (which is probably my favorite SW movie), I think the PT could've been much better. Really, it could've very easily been two movies, but I think that he forced it to be a trilogy simply because the OT was.
     
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

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    Aug 22, 1999
    The stuff you feel is unimportant is all setup for the stuff you feel is. I don't see how you could do away with the setup and just keep the resolution.

    At the end of the day, you guys are correct to say that you see it your way and I see it mine and perhaps never the twain shall meet. I certainly wouldn't say you guys are wrong about how you personally feel about it.

    I'm just saying to sit there and act like the people who regard the prequels as highly as the classic trilogy are patently out of touch with reality is ridiculous.

    We wouldn't be here right now discussing this if the opinion that the prequels weren't as good as the classic trilogy was a slam dunk no-brainer.
     
  23. DBrennan3333

    DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Nov 5, 2004
    I definitely agree with the spirit of your post. Opinions on movies are entirely subjective, and it's kind of silly to fight too hard over it because there's literally no way we'll ever agree. Even if we all agreed, then we'd all start fighting about what scenes were the best parts of our favorite movie; it's just a constantly moving target.

    I think a big part of the reason I get defensive about the OT is because I think that there's lots of glossy, phony nonsense in the PT (midichlroians, the "chosen one", lots of the peripheral battles) which somehow make them more contemporary. So, because they're more hip, many viewers falsely attribute artistic superiority, when there's not. It's like saying that a car with shiny upholstery and a DVD player is better than an older car that's not as gimmick-y but has a great engine and will run for 500,000 miles, ya know?

     
  24. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 30, 2005
    The Phantom Menace is the only PT installment I'd classify as "children's film," and I find something compelling in its schismatic nature. One minute Jar Jar is stepping in alien feces. In another, Palpatine is playing Milton's Satan to Padme's Eve, whispering sweet damnation into her ear. In another, three monks engage in a sword duel for which the term "operatic" could almost be deemed an understatement.

    Whatever TPM is, it's not hackwork. Hacks are incapable of producing something so gonzo. With Episode I, Lucas managed to craft something simultaneously more sophisticated and juvenile than his franchise deserved.

    Inter-galactic corporations invading the planet of the jivin' frog-people.

    The galaxy's messiah (or is it antichrist?) works his first miracle in a Hanna-Barbera race.

    Inspired. Just inspired. No wonder TPM is one of my favorite movies.


     
  25. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004

    Nah, psychoanalysis isn't really my thing. Just interested in what you had to say and wanted to clarify where you were coming from.
     
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