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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga OT Force vs. PT Prophecy

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Obi-Ewan, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Perhaps I'm mistaken, but when Alexrd stated:
    This thread is about alleged contradicting concepts. Midi-chlorians don't contradict anything that is stated in the OT. You argue that it was never a requirement to use/connect with the Force without providing a source/premiss to back that up. Absence of evidence is not a valid one.

    I got the impression that what I stated earlier was his point. The midis not being mentioned in the OT doesn't mean that they couldn't exist, that Lucas couldn't continue to build on the foundation established by the OT. As long as no contradiction occurred. In essence, the midis not being mentioned in the OT isn't a contradiction.
     
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  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    What counts as a contradiction, anyway? Is Qui-Gon being Obi-Wan's master a contradiction? It contradicts (in some sense) prior information. But it is also explained away (well, not literally, but it's assumed away). Are there some contradictions that are less ostentatious and easier to believe/explain? Are there things that don't contradict literal words ("he betrayed and murdered your father" =/= "the good man who was your father was destroyed") but rather, in some sense, contradict themes or 'rules of the worldbuilding,' for lack of better words?
     
  3. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Most "contradictions" aren't truly that difficult to explain. You bring up a good example with Qui-Gon in that it would seem to contradict what is stated in ESB. But it's not that hard to explain considering we see Yoda instructing the younglings and, with Qui-Gon dead, he can hardly act as a teacher to Luke. In large part, I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not one likes the change and is willing to accept it.

    For example, I rarely see people bring up Han's debt to Jabba as a contradiction or a plot hole. And yet, it's there. In ANH, Han flat out states that he got his reward and he's got debts to pay off with it. Yet, in ESB and ROTJ, we see that his debt has not been paid off. There's never an explanation for this. Did Han give the money back? Wouldn't the Rebellion be willing to help him? But it's never really addressed. Given that this subplot also takes up a massive amount of time in both ESB and ROTJ, I've always been perplexed that fans don't call it into question more often. I think it's just that people enjoy the films so much that they don't care as much about the contradiction.
     
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  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    "Needed"? Why? Lucas wanted a bigger goal and a more "Epic" story but it was hardly needed.
    Luke's father is a fallen hero, Luke is faced with similar trials as his father but he doesn't fall and he redeems his father. Luke's personal goal is to become a Jedi and along the way he wants to redeem his father as well. He manages to do both. The background to Luke's personal journey is the Empire vs Rebels story. While Luke certainly does a fair bit in that struggle, it is resolved by other people.
    Han takes down the shield while Lando blows up the DS2 and Vader kills Palpatine.
    Luke's primary goal wasn't to kill Palpatine. He opposed and fought the Empire to be sure, but Luke himself never makes the killing of Palpatine a priority.
    Having Vader kill the person he helped to become Emperor would serve just fine, a prophecy isn't needed.
    If we take the view that we should see these films 1-6 then Luke's father starts a hero and then becomes a villain and now Luke could go the same way. But he doesn't and brings his father back.
    More than enough for me.

    About Anakin. "Burden of living up to a Destiny?"
    What the prophecy apparently meant was apparently that Anakin was meant to kill one person.
    Why would that be such a burden for him? He would have been told that his destiny is to kill the Sith.
    Since he knows that Maul was a Sith and Obi-Wan managed to kill him fine. So aside from finding this sith, what is the big burden here? Find the guy and kill him. He has many Jedi backing him up.
    For Luke, to kill Vader and Palpatine was much harder. They have the backing of the full might of the Empire so how Luke could even get to them is hard. On top of that, he is told to kill his own father.
    That would be a much greater burden.

    As for desire for more power, that you can have with Anakin simply be a very talented Jedi, whose power grows too quickly and too easily. He could want more power both from his own hubris and the old "Power corrupts" bit. A prophecy and being a demi-god isn't needed.
    Plus, Anakin himself never talks about the prophecy or what he is meant to do or how it is affecting him. That is what I mean when I say the prophecy was underdeveloped. If they had Anakin talk about it and what he was meant to do and that it weighed on his mind. But we get very little.
    Compare in the Matrix films, in the second one we see that Neo is uncomfortable with his role a "savior". Esp when a whole bunch of people wait for him and ask him to look after their children in the Matrix and what not. He is treated like a God in some ways and that bothers him. Plus his task was also much harder, he has to destroy the machines and free humanity and he had no idea how to do that.

    No, doesn't really work, Vader is a Dark Side user and he can still sense Luke. The weakness seems only with Palpatine. In the PT, the Dark Side is weakening thousands of Jedi all over the galaxy.
    And Palpatine is still able to foresee a great many things.
    So the Dark Side is shown to be more powerful.



    That is the logical extrapolation of how the midis are said to work and what the Jedi do.
    More midis mean a greater Force connection and thus more you can draw on more Force power.
    Thus a lesser amount of midis means a weaker connection and you can draw on less power.
    Logically you would reach a cut off point, where you can't draw on the Force anymore.
    This is supported by how the Jedi in the PT take in new Jedi. Since the children are taken in as infants or something like it, they can't have the children do tests. Since they have a standard midi test, the logical conclusion is that they test their blood and a result above a certain number means a potential new Jedi and below that number means they can't be trained as a Jedi.



    Is he? He never used Force Lightning as far as I know. Nor does he flip around as much as they did.


    No biology and genetics doesn't work like that. Anakin is male so he needs a Y-chromosome and Shmi, being female, lacks a such a chromosome. So something more is needed.



    It matters because it is a problem with the whole prophecy plot line. When you give out abilities or establish rules in a fictional universe you must try to apply them consistently or else you run into problems with the writing. Ex. In this case the Force suddenly has the Power to do things directly in response to what it sees as a threat. Well by giving the Force this power you open the door to it doing a whole lot of other things. This is another problem I have with the prophecy in the PT. All Anakin has to do is kill a person. That is nothing very much special. Anakin is essentially a Force Terminator, created to kill Palpatine, other than that he has no purpose in life.
    By having the prophecy be something this small and knowing that the Force could just have killed Palpatine itself, it becomes a problem. If you have a "god" step in and do things directly then you will get questions like "Well why doesn't "god" do this all the time?" And perhaps "What does God want with a Starship":p



    Incorrect, an officer told Tarkin that they had analyzed the rebel attack and concluded that there was a danger and asked if they should have his own ship standing by. So Tarkin DID have a warning but he ignored it out of arrogance. And Palpatine had plenty of that.



    And you know that he would do all this how exactly? The ISD were attacking the rebel ships as soon as they engaged them.



    What is this preoccupation with power? Obi-Wan managed to kill Maul, a Sith. Mace had Palpatine down and would have killed him had Anakin not interfered.
    And Luke had gotten what, a few weeks training and Yoda thought he had enough power to take down Palpatine?

    And your proof that Luke being able to this is due to his Force connection is?
    Also, Vader is flying behind Luke and doesn't comment on the Force being strong with Luke until Obi-Wan speaks to Luke and Luke starts to believe. Then he starts to use the Force and thus Vader notices it.

    And as I said before, midis aren't needed to tell a story of a good man turning bad out of his own arrogance and hubris. Nor are they needed to give Palpatine a way to tempt Anakin.
    Lucas choose to use them, that is all.

    By originally do you mean ESB/RotJ? If so, citation needed.
    If you mean when he was writing RotS then as I said above, the midis aren't needed. Simply say that the Dark Side can extend life and keep death away. And how is Anakins birth a motivation here?
    Causing a pregnancy is a bit different from stopping death.

    Luke's father being a demi-god I think is something that could have been mentioned. Esp since it has given Luke an uber-Force connection. Why wouldn't Anakin's father being some Jedi that had a one-night stand work? His father could have been a great Jedi that left the order because he disagreed with their strict rules regarding family and he met and married Shmi but died when Anakin was young. But Anakin knew him and carries with him, his father idea that Jedi should be able to marry. That is partly why he does marry Padme.
    Could work well in my opinion. That Lucas didn't want it is fine but to say it wouldn't work I don't think is accurate.


    [/QUOTE]

    First, appeal to ignorance fallacy.
    Second, we see the whole bit where Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned. That Yoda brings it up now indicates that he hasn't mentioned it before. Otherwise why mention something Luke already knows? And the claim was that Luke didn't need to know about the midis and thus Yoda never mentioned them. BUT if Yoda wants Luke to rebuild the order then Luke DOES need to know about midis and they should therefore be mentioned. So they are relevant in the OT.
    Third, Luke might not really know that he can use the Force to lift things. But he has no other options and so he calms himself down and tries. Probably much like the very first Force users did in the SW galaxy. The first ones that started to make use of the Force had no idea what it could do, so they most likely tested and see what worked and what didn't.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No, it's not. Specially when we were talking about an incomplete work ever since the movies were described as Episodes IV, V and VI.

    And yet again, you are hitting a strawman. Nobody is arguing the necessity of certain elements within the story that is told. Yoda was not necessary for the story told in ANH. Midi-chlorians were not necessary for the story told in the OT. But that doesn't mean both didn't exist in the universe of ANH or that they contradict anything in those stories. They are additions, not alterations or contradictions.

    I don't discuss on the basis of made up rules of argumentation.

    PiettsHat: Thanks for clarifying my argument.
     
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  6. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    I note that you only part quoted my response, again. And...as it stood the OT was not 'incomplete' it was a set of three movies telling the story that was the Star Wars trilogy. That is what it was called THE Star Wars trilogy. Nobody who watched them considered the trilogy incomplete - and as a trilogy it is not incomplete. What is not correct (and what you are suggesting) is that the prequels actually already existed, and all elements in them were in some way enfolded into the OT. From such a starting point there is no discussion. But...I'm sure you are very aware of that.


    Oh I see. So when you said;

    "That just because something was introduced later on doesn't make it less necessary/essential."

    You didn't mean that elements introduced in the PT were essential for the OT?

    This is a bit like your earlier argument that I was 'extrapolating' something you never said when I referenced the idea of Luke's genetic entitlement to Force powers. I'll ask again - are you arguing for a genetic element to being able to become a Jedi or aren't you?

    I'm trying to understand what rules you are working to because you appear to say something, then refute that you ever said such a thing, and the revert to exactly the same argument again.

    Are the elements introduced in the PT necessary for the OT on its own?
    Are you arguing that there is a genetic element to becoming a Jedi, or aren't you?

    These are both arguments you insinuate I have misunderstood you on, so it should not take long for you to clarify what you are arguing in terms of these two specific points.
     
  7. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    First of all, I find it odd to say that Han Solo's debt to Jabba is a contradiction. We know from ANH that he is, in some way, in debt to Jabba. I can't remember specifically whether Han planning on leaving the rebellion at the end of that film had anything to do with paying off Jabba. I don't remember that being the case...he just seemed to be taking the money and running. So...it seems to me that paying Jabba back was just not an issue that particularly bothered Han.

    What I was really responding to, though, was the idea that Most "contradictions" aren't truly that difficult to explain. You chose the example of Qui-Gon but...the very fact that it requires an explanation is surely a sign that it contradicts (at some level) the story as it originally stood.

    But some "contradictions" are more difficult to explain - especially if one is trying to explain from the perspective of knowing only the OT originally, and the PT coming much later to someone who has grown up with both trilogies, as if they are simply one implacable whole.

    In terms of the Force it is about what is taken from the films. From the OT on its own the Force is very 'open-ended', it is mysterious and unknowable. It is an energy field that surrounds us all and binds us all as one. Using the Force is a matter of great effort and belief.

    The introduction of midiclorians offers a measurement of 'Force sensitivity' )and inclines toward a genetic requirement as the determining factor in being able to use the Force - because children would be tested and recognised from a very young age as to their potential. That sense of a genetic elite is exaggerated because we see no effort being expended by any Jedi in learning to use the Force through the PT. It is as if the use of the Force comes naturally to those so blessed.

    In the OT Force powers are 'cool', very attractive to young minds but - ultimately the story does not hinge upon those powers - they are a sideshow. In the PT Force Power is King. I don't think it coincidental that with the PT came discussions about who is the most powerful Force User.

    There is a contradiction in how elements of the story were utilised. In the case of the Force the idea of 'Force Sensitives' becomes common parlance (suggesting, as it does, that only some are) in terms of what the PT introduces.

    The contradiction is about what role an element (the Force) takes within the story-telling framework. Not only is power in the Force a major theme but it is that power that the whole galaxy depends upon. Everybody else is simply an onlooker as the 'gods' battle it out. What makes this worse is that the Force has also gained a 'human-like' conscious entity. No longer mysterious, simply a blind energy field, but a conscious entity that cares enough about the fate of the people of the galaxy that it produces a 'man-god'. An entity with human like morals.

    There is a distinction about what exists as story.

    Of course an argument against this is that...that's just what some fans thought and it 'wasn't really in the story' that such was 'just imagined by some fans' because it can't be proven that those elements weren't actually, in some way, already there. There is a certain form of argument that tries to railroad any discussion down that path.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Why should I quote the rest when I'm not addressing those parts? Also, from the moment it's established that chapters from the story are missing, it's incomplete by default, no matter what everyone thought or not. And honestly, who thought nothing was missing when Star Wars received the subtitle of Episode IV and TESB Episode V?

    The prequels as movies didn't exist, and nobody is arguing that. My point is that elements that were explored in the PT didn't contradict (and even explained some things) in the OT.

    No. I'll reformulate: "just because something was introduced later on doesn't make it less necessary/essential to the overall story". Take Yoda as an example.

    No, it isn't.

    I don't need to. The movies establish that midi-chlorians (which everyone has) are what allows someone to communicate with the Force. And before you pick another strawman, yes, it doesn't mean faith is not necessary.

    Where? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and that applies to everything. It's a logical fallacy. It's not up to you to decide that it doesn't apply to fictional universes.

    I really don't know what's so difficult to understand. PiettsHat didn't have a problem.
     
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  9. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Why wouldn't you address the other parts? Because the other part was an explanation of why your argument was meaningless. By part-quoting you formulate the post you are responding to as being just that, and then don't have to address the argument that stands behind it.

    Who thought nothing was missing? Well..it doesn't matter does it, by your own definition here "..no matter what everyone thought". Wow....I wonder where this is going? Its not like anyone could predict what this argument is actually about, is it?

    well, the thing is, from what you have said, and what you are trying to wiggle in there, I contend that this is exactly what you are trying to say... read on

    Let's take a look at this in context, shall we. I asked (in post#38)

    "You're not seriously using that argument are you? The argument you propose here requires that the PT was a pre-existing 'truth' which we have since learned. The OT existed as a self-contained story. Unless, within that self-contained story, there was a specific injunction that something was required then it is not necessarily required. There is nothing controversial or illogical in making that point."

    to which you replied (in post#39)

    "That's what prequels are. Existing in-universe "truths" set in the past."

    For further clarification of the nature of your argument here one only need go back through the posts. You were arguing that just because the OT didn't specifically address something it doesn't mean that it wasn't required/essential. The next step in this argument is, of course, to say that it doesn't matter what somebody thought was (or wasn't) in the movie, they were 'mistaken'.



    Well, yes it is. It is a bit like (similar) because in both cases you are suggesting that I have, in some way, taken your words and twisted them to mean something you didn't say. As in...

    The strawman here is entirely yours. My question was simple and straightforward, and yet you still cannot bring yourself to answer it directly. So you are arguing that there is a genetic requirement to becoming a Jedi. So when I said that you were referencing Luke's genetic entitlement I wasn't extrapolating something from your words that you had not said. You were arguing that Luke was special "even for a force sensitive" (itself a presumption of genetic requirement) and that was due to him being the son of Anakin Skywalker. You even tried to show that this was highlighted by his ability to use the Force "before" (meaning before Dagobah, implying before his training)

    If you were trying your hardest for irony you could not have responded more aptly than this.

    in terms of 'absence of evidence blah blah blah' I will offer the same example I offered in an earlier post. Prior to the PT (which was made after the OT, remember) the Star wars story did not contain within it the concept 'midiclorians'. The story worked perfectly well without midiclorians. There was no requirement or necessity for midiclorians. What is more, midiclorians really did not exist within the story that was Star Wars prior to the PT. Absence is indeed all the evidence that is required. There were no midiclorians in the Original trilogy. The evidence for their not being there is....their absence.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    You can call into question the logic of a lot of stories. Doesn't mean jack in the end, other than someone wants to nitpick.

    What you want or need is different from what Lucas wanted and needed for his story. That tends to get lost here.

    "The point is, like if you paint your house white and somebody comes over, 'Well that should be a green house.' Well, fine, but I wanted to paint it white. I don’t think there was anything wrong with painting it white. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me for painting it white. Maybe it should be a green house, but I didn’t want it to be a green house. I wanted it to be a white house.”

    --George Lucas, 60 Minutes Interview 2005.



    Anakin's burden was that it would require a sacrifice which he wasn't willing to make and his son almost wasn't willing to do as well. Anakin could kill Palpatine and save the day, but Padme would die because he was only Sith Lord left alive with the knowledge of the dark side's secrets and could help show him how to stop people from dying. Knowledge derived from manipulation of Midichlorians. Luke's burden was that he was he needed to stay and finish his training, but he also needed to go and save his friends. He makes the choice to do so and pays a consequence for it. Not just with his hand, but with the fact that Yoda will no longer be able to help him to finish his training and thus he feels that he is incapable of doing what needs to be done. Especially when he is helpless to save his friends again during the final battle.

    To you. Not to Lucas.

    That's because there wasn't a burden with being the Chosen One. He accepted that responsibility without hesitation. It is only when he has to fulfill that destiny that problems arise, which is that it requires a choice.

    Actually, it does. Vader can sense Luke because there is good within him and it is struggling to resurface, whereas Palpatine is pure evil and thus cannot sense the good in Luke. Remember, Vader didn't sense Obi-wan on Mustafar. He was shocked when he saw him. Palpatine foresaw many things, but he did not see Luke becoming a Jedi, which is why he's genuinely shocked when Luke tells him to **** off. Much less, didn't see his demise at Vader's hand. Before then doesn't matter. He's not affected like the Jedi were. The shift in balance is what is the cause of all this.


    The EU did that because they were matching up to what was written by Kevin J. Anderson with his Force detection device and the technique that Luke discovered, which said who was and who wasn't. For all we know when it comes to the world of Lucas, the tests could be nothing more than determining what kind of training is required with each student. Like standardized testing for those who have learning disabilities and those who don't.


    The bionics and the suit limit his mobility and prevent him from using lightning, but he's still capable of fighting and killing Jedi. He can still do the other things that Jedi and Sith can do. He's not as strong as he was before and not as strong as his children would become.

    Tell that to Jesus Christ, because his mother was virgin.

    That's generally how any of us is. We only have one real purpose in the grand scheme of things. We find that bliss as Lucas calls it and to do both what we want to do and what we were born to do.

    So what? Does it really matter in the long run? No. You can invite the questions, but they are essentially meaningless.


    Palpatine was also distracted by wanting a new Sith Lord to take the place of the old and damaged one. Tarkin wasn't exactly told what the danger was and believed with Vader out there, it wouldn't be an issue.

    They were told to block the way if they tried to escape. They didn't start firing on them until the Executor was being bombarded and then was brought down.


    Obi-wan killed a weaker Sith Lord. Mace barely survived his fight against Palpatine and lost three Jedi Masters, good ones, to him. Yoda could barely keep up with Palpatine. Obi-wan only survived against Anakin because the latter was arrogant and made a foolish mistake. Luke was meant to face the Sith and take them out. Luke's impatience is why he wasn't trained to the fullest. But Luke had the connection to the Force that was necessary to fight the Sith, even if he lacked the decades of experience of a Mace Windu.

    Because it is the same reason his father was able to compete and eventually win as a podracer, when no human had ever done so prior to him or since then. A strong connection to the Force was a factor in both. Anakin could see when he needed to make the appropriate adjustments most of the time, until Qui-gon gave him a bit of training. Luke's instinct to hit the womp rat came from the Force prompting him to do it at a particular moment and a particular angle. None of the other pilots could hit the target with a computer and because they weren't aware of what they could do, they were thus incapable of doing it on their own.

    Which has nothing to do with it other than Luke was making a conscious effort to use the Force, whereas before he wasn't. Luke's efforts at Yavin was the result of starting to put his faith in Obi-wan and the Force, rather than in the machine.

    From your point of view.

    Anakin knows that his mother had not slept with a man prior to his conception. He knows that the Midichlorians had created him. If the Midichlorians could do that, then they could be used to extend a life. They could stop death from claiming his loved ones.

    Lucas had wanted to introduce the Midichlorians into the OT, but couldn't find a way to make it work with the story as it existed at the time. When he started the PT, he found a story that he could use with them. That's all. Its that simple. Lucas didn't want Anakin's origin to be that. He wanted a more divine, mythological in nature. Hercules was the son of Zeus. That's pretty much a good story and a good place to start.


    Who cares? A lot of stuff isn't explained in the films, like Han still being in debt to Jabba in TESB.

    Two things.

    1. Yoda is about to tell Luke that he has a sibling. In fact, that is the last thing he says to him.

    2. Again, he was already aware of the Midichlorians.

    Or more likely, Obi-wan discussed it with him after they made the jump to light speed and went into the back to start the training, while Han kept watch in the cockpit. The most likely solution and all.
     
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  11. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    What do you mean by 'Doesn't mean jack'? Do you mean that my opinion is irrelevant because I can't change the way the movie's written? If so, I agree. Or do you mean that it doesn't matter to you that the premise of the story is illogical and it shouldn't matter to me either?

    I'm sorry, but the lack of logic in other stories doesn't seem that relevant to this discussion. Also, 'nitpicking' to me would be, say, worrying about whether parsecs are an appropriate unit of measurement for a speed record. The premise for the entire saga making no sense would to me constitute a more substantial concern.

    So, once again, other than basically saying 'It is how it is. Deal with it and stop asking difficult questions' is there any more light that you can shed on this issue to help me understand how it does, in fact, make sense?
     
  12. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    I just have to address this. The alleged OT era reference to midiclorians has been shown to have been a later insertion - there was no OT era mention of midiclorians and you are making an assertion here that has absolutely no basis in truth.

    What you are, in effect, saying, is that Lucas decided to conceptualise the Force in a different way from the OT, because he wanted to change the scale of the story. Or, to put it another way. Lucas decided he wanted - in his story of Anakin - to have a different story to that which existed. That is his right. But...it follows that it is not wrong to recognise that there is a change. Nor is it wrong to hold an opinion on that change.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    "Doesn't mean jack" means that asking these questions doesn't really matter. They're not important questions to ask. When I say I can do that to any other film, that means I can nitpick something to death and find that it really doesn't matter. Take the episode of "The Big Bang Theory" from this season, where it was pointed out that Indy wasn't important to "Raiders Of The Lost Ark", other than to save Marion. The Nazis would find the Ark, open it and be killed by it. All that would change is that it would have been left in that little island port instead of Area 51. Asking, "Why doesn't the Force just kill Palpatine itself instead of creating Anakin" falls under that same category. You can ask that question, but finding an answer that will satisfy you will never happen.

    Not quite true. Lucas did have the idea of the Force skills and capability being something that was passed down from generation to generation was there in the second draft of ANH. And by ROTJ, we had Luke's statements about the Force running strong in his family. The term Midichlorians may not have been around, but the very concept was there. He didn't explore it in terms that he wanted to until later, but the genesis of it was there.
     
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  14. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    I realize I'm butting in (sorry), but there's something to address here. When these kinds of issues are raised, often the response is "it was needed," not "George Lucas needed it, in order to add things he wanted to add or further explain." There is a difference. If I am telling a story, and there is a burnt-down house, and some of the characters mention the 'fire of 2194,' then even though the story doesn't directly include viewpoint scenes showing the fire, the narrative with regard to the house is in some sense 'complete,' in a logical sense. There was a fire, some of the characters saw it, and the burnt remains later serve as a setting for further events. THEN, I go back and tell the story of the fire, and it turns out that God started the fire in order to create a smoke plume that would rise into the air and temporarily blind the pilot of a plane flying over. That additional information, no matter why I decided to add it, was not 'necessary' to the original story in the abstract sense. It only becomes 'necessary' when the storyteller decides to add things that require those additional elements.

    My point is that the word 'necessary' is being used two different ways here, and they sometimes get mixed up. Anakin and Obi-Wan's story was in some sense 'complete' just from the CT:

    -Obi-Wan finds Anakin, Anakin is a great pilot and is very strong in the Force
    -Anakin follows Obi-Wan on some 'damn fool idealistic crusade' which Owen thinks he should have stayed out of
    -Obi-Wan is hubristic and thinks he can train an apprentice just as well as Yoda could
    -Anakin is tempted by the quick and easy access to power afforded by the dark side
    -Anakin falls (the specifics of the volcano fight are not in the CT films, but they are in the script of ROTJ and the surrounding actually-released materials, so they were part of the 'zeitgeist' if you will)
    -Anakin helps the Empire hunt down and destroy the rest of the Jedi Knights

    No part of that story requires midichlorians, an anthropomorphized Force, a Force that can be unbalanced, etc. Those elements are only 'necessary' in the PT as released because George Lucas decided they were necessary to effect the additions he wanted to make in the PT. Maybe they helped with themes he wanted to introduce or strengthen. Maybe he just thought they were cool things to include. It's not like he's a bad person for changing things, or there is something objectively wrong with adding things to a story. But those elements really were additions from the PT, and really were not things that were 'necessary' to fill in parts of the story told in the CT. The CT and its backstory (which the PT could have adapted sans additions) worked perfectly well, as a sequential narrative, without them.

    Just because the element was used in another story doesn't mean it makes a whole lot of sense there either without the use of magic. The people who wrote that story, in the first century near east, likely didn't know very much about the specifics of human reproductive biology. The Star Wars story has magic too, but the terms used here tend to be like "cell divisions," etc... meaning there are at least nods to biology. But not a whole lot of detail on the 'how is this supposed to work exactly.' If we really want to get technical, the whole notion of the Force, midichlorians, etc, could run up against the old 'dualism' question of how are ethereal and physical things supposed to interact, when their definitions are dependent on them not being able to interact. That's a derail, though.

    They aren't important to you. But that doesn't mean they aren't well-formed or relevant questions.
     
  15. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Sure it is. Han says that he's going to take the money and pay off his debts. Yet, in ESB, we see he hasn't. Are you really telling me it isn't the slightest bit contradictory that the Rebels have had time to set up an entire new base on Hoth and in that time, Han couldn't make a quick trip to Tatooine to pay Jabba back? This also assumes there is no electronic means of payment. The debt was Han's reason for getting involved in the first place; it was quite important to him. But it's never addressed why he didn't go pay Jabba back.

    Note that I said "contradictions" with quotes. I think that this "contradiction" is more of an example of the PT contradicting assumptions people made about the OT but were never plainly stated. For example, Yoda being the Jedi Master who instructed Obi-Wan does not preclude him from having other teachers. But it was largely assumed that Yoda was Obi-Wan's primary teacher. Nothing in the OT says that Jedi can only have one master. Indeed, the opposite is true. Luke was introduced to the Force by Obi-Wan but was largely instructed by Yoda. Obi-Wan, similarly, would have been introduced to the Force by Yoda as a youngling (as we saw in AOTC) and then taught by Qui-Gon.

    The OT already showed, though, that the Force runs -- genetically -- stronger through some people than others. That it is through families suggests a genetic component. The PT didn't establish that only some people can use the Force. Indeed, the fact that midichlorians reside in all living cells belies this. Instead, some people have more natural affinity. Which is basically what Luke said in ROTJ, that the Force runs strong in his family. Also, I think you have to consider that the characters we follow in the PT already have many years of training -- Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda have all been Jedi for over a decade. Nonetheless, we do see them discuss the Force. Such as the opening of TPM, or Yoda instructing the younglings, or Qui-Gon teaching young Anakin -- telling him how important it is to quiet his mind and "feel" rather than "think." This has always reminded me of what Obi-Wan said to Luke -- "let go of your conscious self and act on instinct."

    The Force plays an enormous role in the OT. I think you're minimizing it, actually. Luke is the protagonist and his battle largely takes place through the Force. In fact, the most critically acclaimed film -- ESB -- is basically all about the Force and the Jedi vs Sith, the light vs dark rather than the Rebellion vs the Empire. The Rebels barely appear in that film and there is no plot or story arc following them. Instead, the entirety is focused on the battle for Luke's soul -- which side will he choose, light or dark? Both Vader and the Emperor want to turn him (with Palpatine requiring some persuasion) while Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to make sure he has control.

    The entire climax of ANH is won through use of the Force -- with Luke's shot a result of him being strong in the Force. Even Vader remarks -- "the Force is strong with this one."

    Moreover, the entirety of the ROTJ space battle is moot considering that ANH showed us that the Empire was not harmed in the slightest by the destruction of the first Death Star. What matters is killing Palpatine. And Palpatine is not some pathetic figurehead, but a powerful user of the Dark Side.

    The Force also always was more than a blind energy field. Just as the user could control it, it could control you. There was a give and take that was very reminiscent of, dare I say it, symbiosis.

    There's nothing wrong with saying that some elements could differ based on interpretation. Not every fan who views the films will come away with the same impressions. And that's perfectly alright. No one is right or wrong.
     
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  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    It would have to be an argument to begin with.

    That's right. It's not a matter of opinion or open for debate. Ever since the Star Wars received the subtitle Episode IV, it's implied that there are three more chapters of before it, thus being incomplete (until they were released later).

    well, the thing is, from what you have said, and what you are trying to wiggle in there, I contend that this is exactly what you are trying to say... read on

    To the overall story.

    Mistaken?!

    I didn't suggest anything. And as I've pointed out before, there are no contradicting statements.

    And I've answered that question before. Yes, there is a biological requirement. What I tried to show by mentioning his past Force usage was that faith was not the only requirement.

    It simply wasn't mentioned in the OT. Their absence doesn't prove the concept didn't exist nor that their introduction creates a contradiction (which, in case you forgot, is what this topic and my argument was about).
     
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  17. Komodo9Joe

    Komodo9Joe Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Nothing is difficult to understand. You simply state how the PT never altered the concept of the Force established in the OT. This is not a difficult point to grasp only one kenobi.
     
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  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    To me there is a difference between wants and needs. If Lucas wants to explore something that is just down to his own choices as a storyteller. If something is necessary or needed then that goes beyond what the storyteller wants. Ex when making RotJ is was NECCESSARY to address the question of Vader being Luke's father. Lucas didn't really have much choice in the matter. He NEEDED to have this and he NEEDED to have Luke ask about what Obi-Wan said in ANH.
    So outside factors made something needed.

    With the midis, prophecy and all that. Lucas wanted it and so he included it. That is totally up to him as a storyteller and is fine. But it wasn't NEEDED beyond that. Lucas put in there because he choose to, nothing more or less.
    And Lucas choices as a filmmaker and storyteller can be discussed by the audience and whether or not they make sense and how well they work in the overall story.


    So Anakin did not have any burden from the prophecy until RotS and Palpatine told him he was the Sith Lord? So from TPM, through AotC up until RotS, the prophecy was no burden at all for Anakin.
    So then that burden had no impact on all the years he spent training and learning to deal with his power. So it isn't very much about "living up to a destiny" is it? Since this burden didn't exist until very late it had no impact on the growth and change of his character.
    And when Palpatine told Anakin the thruth, Anakin wanted to kill him right there, not really due to any prophecy but that he knew that Palpatine was the one who had caused all this trouble and misery. So "the Burden" you speak of is only in the story for a very short time. And as such I would not call it a "Burden", more like a difficult choice. And that choice would still be there even without the prophecy. Anakin would still see that Palpatine was behind all the trouble and tell Mace and if he was still worried about Padme, then he still has the same problem. So the prophecy isn't really a factor here.


    Luke had far more of a "Burden" that just that. He was fighting the Empire, against very bad odds.
    He knew that sooner or later he would have to cross blades with Vader and maybe even the emperor.
    He is told that he must kill his father, a father he thinks he can save. And he has to stop a very powerful Sith without knowing how.
    In all Luke had a bigger burden and under a longer time than Anakin and Luke didn't need a prophecy or be a demi-god to have this burden.


    You don't know this, you are only speculating. The answer could simply be that Vader was closer, physically, to Luke.
    And Palpatine can't sense the good in Luke? I think you mean Vader.
    Whether Palpatine could not sense it or not is not clear. But it is clear that he, like Obi-Wan and Yoda thought that turning to the Dark side was one-way ticket. It seems that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda could sense the good in Vader either, so it doesn't seem to be a dark side user weakness here.


    Palpatine did not want Luke to become a Jedi because he knew he was a threat to him. He did not think Luke would be able to resist the lure of the Dark Side, that was mostly due to his own arrogance.
    That the shift is the cause to this? That isn't what they say though, Dooku says that the Dark Side has clouded the Jedi's vision. Sounds like the Dark Side is taking direct action here.
    And when did this shift occur? Before or after TPM? The jedi make no mention that the Dark Side is clouding them but yet they could not foresee the invasion of Naboo.


    But again since the Jedi wanted the children not to have any attachments to their parents they have to take them very young, maybe when they are infants. At that age, you can't really test them, except basic things like a blood test. Also, Qui-Gon said that if Anakin had been born in the republic, the Jedi would have identified him early. Again suggesting that blood tests are done on newborns and the jedi are notified when the midi count is above a certain number.
    So the films do imply that below a certain number, you can't be a Jedi.


    You are changing the argument, earlier you used scientific terms and said that Anakin becoming male was just nature. And the midis themselves are made to be more "scientific". I countered that nature and biology doesn't work like that and you revert to a "magic" explanation.
    Bottomline, the midis can't just have started cell division in one egg, something more is needed.

    IF we invoke "God" here as you just did, then "God" could just have struck Palpatine down, which is something God in the Bible have done on more than one occasion. Also Jesus in the Bible was created with a far bigger goal than just killing a man. If "Bringing balance to the Force" had been something more than just "Kill a Sith" and been more about expanding the knowledge of the Force users or changing how they view the Force then I think it could have been more interesting.


    Meaningless to you, not to me and others. And this is a SW discussion board, why is asking SW related question here meaningless? Is a thread like "When did Vader find out that Luke was his son?" meaningless? The answers there don't matter either in the long run.

    How well a story holds up to scrutiny can be a factor in how well one person likes the film. Plot holes and logical inconsistencies can reduce the quality of a film.
    Since this thread is about the Prophecy and what is said in OT/PT, why the Force didn't just take out Palpatine directly is a relevant question. Because it deals with what the Force can do and why it is doing things. If the Force created Anakin just to kill Palpatine because he was unbalancing the Force. Then logically, if the Force wants Palpatine dead and has the means to do it, why didn't it?


    Tarkin was told that there was a danger and if they should have his ship standing by. The implication is clear, the DS could be destroyed. Tarkin realized this as well "Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?" He underestimated the rebels chances but whether or not he knew Vader was out there is unclear.


    Wrong, the ISD's started to fire as soon as the rebel capital ships engaged them. We see fire between one iSD and the medical frigate and also just after Lando says they must engage the star destroyers at point blank range. And this was before the rebels concentrated fire on the SSD.


    The films show that Power isn't everything. And Luke's impatience is not the only reason. Yoda could have brought Luke to Dagobah much sooner but he waited three years before doing anything.
    So even without Luke leaving, he would have gotten what, a couple of months more training at most?



    Again where is your proof that Luke shooting womp rats is IMPOSSIBLE for other humans?
    One rebel pilot objects to the plan but no one else. And since the rebel leader made this plan they obviously though that it was possible.
    Luke could just be skilled, nothing more. Han is shown to be quite a good pilot and he isn't Force sensitive. With Anakin we are told he is doing something other humans can't, nothing of the sort is established with Luke.


    Qui-Gon seemed to be able to sense the Force in Anakin, even before he directly used it, Vader sensed nothing from Luke UNTIL he directly used it. So Luke's normal flying didn't seem to be boosted by the Force.


    And again, causing an egg to start dividing is quite a bit different from stopping someone whose head has been blown off from dying. A pregnancy is a natural process, stopping death is not.


    From what I've read about this, the name midichlorians was NOT around back when Lucas made the OT. What he had in mind was that some non-human species were born with a higher awareness of the Force, that their brains were different.

    EDIT: I missed that only one kenobi have pointed this out and your response to him.

    The concept was a bit different from how the PT has it.
    No difference existed within a species, only between species and that difference seemed to be related to the brain, not the blood.

    Yes Lucas WANTED this, he didn't NEED to have this. And yes he put this in to make the story more "Epic". But just adding a prophecy and demigods is not enough, it is what you do with them in the story that matters to me. And I found the execution a bit lacking here.


    And people have brought up Han not paying off Jabba as a problem with ESB. Or that the destruction of the first DS didn't restores freedom to the galaxy. I don't claim that the OT don't have holes nor do I have a problem that people point them out.
    You don't care, others might, so please don't speak for everybody.


    1: Yoda tells him more that that, he tells him that Luke is now the last of the Jedi and he also tells him to pass on what he has learned. In essence, to start a new Jedi Order, starting with Leia. But just the two of them is hardly enough. Also, when during Luke's training in ESB, would Yoda start talking about how Luke would go about training others? A bit premature isn't it? Luke is nowhere close to a full Jedi so distracting him with such things at this stage makes little sense. Yoda was also expecting Luke to stay and finish his training but Luke left early.

    2. Proof please.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not the most likely solution as Luke is then training with his lightsaber, not trying to lift things with his mind. Obi-Wan far more likely gave Luke some pointers in how to use his lightsaber and how the remote works. Obi-Wan wants Luke to take the first step into a larger world and he uses the remote and helmet to that end. Why clutter up Luke's mind with other stuff when it isn't needed? And Obi-Wan didn't know about the DS or Alderaan yet. So he would have thought that he would have plenty of time to train Luke.
    A simpler solution is that Luke has heard stories about Jedi knights and what they can do and that could have included lifting things with their minds. In ANH Luke doesn't ask what a Jedi Knight is and he clearly knows about the Clone Wars so he does seem to know something about Jedis.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  19. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Oooohhh,,, catty. Not content with refusing to address an issue you've decided to become insulting about it as well. Real nice Alexrd ....Real nice.

    But actually it was an argument. It was in response to your continued suggestion of my "fallacious reasoning" - it was an explanation as to why the argument you used is entirely out of context. The only way it would make sense is if you were arguing that, in some way, midiclorians were enfolded in the OT - were a pre-existing 'truth' - in other words that the PT existed in some way prior to it actually coming to fruition.

    But you're not arguing that are you? You've said outright that you aren't arguing that, right?...

    Whoa there! I thought you said comprehensively that you weren't arguing this but...here you are inferring that midiclorians in some way existed prior to their actual existence in the PT. Surely that can't be what you mean but....what else can you mean by this?

    Not a matter of opinion? So if anybody does think that the OT is a complete story in and of itself then...they are wrong. Flat out, no argument, yes?

    Then, in what way are you discussing what the OP was? The OP is discussing how the OT (on its own) is distinct from, and is altered because of, what the PT introduced. See above...you actually seem to be arguing that the OT already contained aspects of the PT but it simply wasn't made visible....(while in previous posts flatly denying that you are making that argument)

    This is sophistry, pure and simple - making arguments and then not being able to actually stand behind those arguments, backing away from them. Your "Its not a matter of opinion or open for debate" gives very, very much away.

    There is a particular kind of argument that tries to railroad a discussion down a particular track - rather than actually discussing the issues.
     
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  20. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    As I said "I can't remember specifically whether Han planning on leaving the rebellion at the end of that film had anything to do with paying off Jabba. I don't remember that being the case...", but even with what you've said there is nothing jarring about Han not paying Jabba. It just wasn't important to him.

    Now, that doesn't mean that I don't recognise contradictions within the OT. You might have mentioned Vader becoming Luke's father, for example.

    This is the crux of the matter. The discussion is about the elements that were introduced in the PT that alter the story-telling of the saga. You use the term "assumptions" which is a very biased term in this context. Biased because you follow it up with "but were never actually stated". The bias is this; it pre-supposes that what someone "assumed" was incorrect (because they were never actually stated - so not actually true..)

    What is being discussed, really, (what the OP is opening with) is what viewers took from the OT as a stand alone story and what differences to the subjective experience of the OT the PT introductions made.



    But the OP is based upon exactly that, their impressions from the films. It seems churlish to enter the argument on the basis that nothing has been changed. The discussion has basically resolved around the idea that nothing really changed, those who took this idea or that idea from the story were simply mistaken in some way, that they 'assumed too much' perhaps. You made an argument that ESB is all about Light v Dark, Jedi v Sith....the whole Jedi v Sith notion is a PT idea. An example of PT back projection that is brought to bear as an 'explanation' of how similar the two trilogies actually are.

    Midiclorians are not a singular introduction. It is not midiclorians on their own that alter the utility of the Force between the two prequels. It is their introduction AND the prophecy (including a miraculous (immaculate) conception), AND a 'Chosen One' who is the only one who can bring balance to the Force AND the introduction of a generations old batte between the Sith and the Jedi AND the idea that the 'Chosen One' must destroy the Sith in order to bring balance to the Force AND a Jedi Order whose members seem to fall into using the Force without really having to think about it too much AND the introduction of the function of power in the Force as being a primary concern AND the eradication of the idea that mere mortals might make a difference.

    An over-reaction on my part? Perhaps. But it twiddles my knobs in all the wrong ways when, instead of discussing the differences which exist between the stories, it resolves to an argument of minutae where the sole objective is to show that...nothing has changed...you just didn't know what the story actually was.

    EDIT: BTW, I'm not implying that this is what you had in mind, simply trying to explain in what way the discussion has been directed.
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Not a problem.

    There isn't a difference between saying, "it was needed" and "George Lucas needed it, in order to add things he wanted to add or further explain." The difference is having a minimal amount of exposition to state my case. As to the necessity to telling the story, that's just a matter of opinion that it wasn't necessary to the story, much less linking the two trilogies together.

    "I tried, in my going through mythology, to distill down into certain basic ideas things that seem to exist in a great deal of mythology. Again, to try to find the themes and ideas that continue over a great amount of time and across a wide spectrum of cultures. The Force is a result of that. The Force is the way that many people view the great mysteries of “Is there other realities at work other than the one we can perceive.” I think that the Force represents life—I mean another way to describe it is “life-force.” It’s the spirit of life rather than the physical manifestation of it."

    --George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection, 1993


    "The Midchlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.


    So in its own way, the magic and the biological aspects were addressed. Maybe not to the degree that one would wish, but Lucas did acknowledge it.

    Why are they relevant to ask? Do you ask these questions of all movies, or only ones you take issue with?

    The thing is you don't know if it wasn't necessary or not. You just assume it is and isn't. Same with myself. I believe that he felt it was necessary because of where he was going. I could be wrong, but I'm betting that I'm not by much.

    Anakin knows that he was supposed to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. He's already taken out one and he has to take out the other. The burden isn't living up to his destiny, but in the sacrifices that he is asked to make. The prophecy as a factor is that due to his power, he believes that he should be able to save everyone that he cares for, because of who he is. He has trouble understanding that he cannot save everyone, because there are things beyond his control. Beyond the limits of his capabilities. Luke's burden is much the same way, but the motivations are slightly different.

    The Empire was irrelevant to Luke's burden because it becomes less of an issue after ANH and more about Vader and Palpatine starting with TESB. Just as Anakin knew that he had to take out Dooku and this mysterious Darth Sidious in AOTC and the start of ROTS. Then he sees that his wife will die just like his mother did and he wants the power to save her, since he failed before. Yoda tells him that it cannot be done, but then Palpatine tells him it can be done and that only he can help him. The conflict is between his duty and his destiny, and his personal desires. Luke not needing it for his story is irrelevant because his story is similar, but different from his father's.

    No, I mean Luke. He cannot sense a strong and positive strength in the Force, like the Jedi before couldn't sense such a negative and evil presence in the Force. Distance isn't a requirement.

    What part of, "Strange that I have not" isn't clear?

    That's because Yoda and Obi-wan are still blind, whereas Luke isn't. This is what separates the two generations of Jedi.

    Never said otherwise.

    The dark side of the Force is growing stronger because of the actions that the Sith are taking and have been taking, combined with the Jedi's complacency and the state of the galaxy.

    It's been going on for a long time, they're just only starting to become aware of it in TPM and AOTC.

    Not really. As I said, different training requirements. Not everyone can get into an Ivy League school. Not everyone can work a high end job, where they make a lot of money. The Jedi might only take those who they think have a better potential for being a Jedi, than those who could still be a Jedi, but their talent lies elsewhere. Meaning a Han Solo could become a Jedi, but they would want an Obi-wan Kenobi instead. This is different from 5,000 Midichlorians count and you cannot connect to the Force. Then you have certain ones who could go out and be the guardians and those who are best suited to staying in the Temple to train the next generation of Jedi.

    I didn't change the argument. I pointed out that if we're to believe in the holy texts, then regardless of what we know of biological reproduction doesn't matter when a divine entity is involved. The same is true with the Force. Likewise, the Force created Anakin to do the job. Just because God can do it, doesn't mean that the Force can in a direct way.

    They're meaningless in that they're not really relevant to the plot of the film.

    By that rationale, we can take apart all films because of plot holes and inconsistencies since all films have them.

    It did have the means, it created someone to do it. It's that simple.

    He knew since the laser cannons shut off every time he entered the trench to take on the fighters. Not to mention Vader isn't in there with him.

    I'll have to double check on that one.

    Only because of how the story ends. Luke doesn't fight Palpatine and Vader does a surprise attack. The Jedi were expecting Luke to battle him like they had before.

    Enough that he would have been far more prepared that he thought he would be. Yoda waited because he was having reservations about Luke.

    Not quite. Dodonna believes that it can be done with a targeting computer, which Wedge points out that it cannot be done. Luke says it can be, because he has done something similar. That is the proof. Nothing more and nothing less. We see it when Pops and his team try it and fail. By that point, there's only three X-Wings and a Y-Wing or two left. Han is a good pilot because he could very well be a Force sensitive, but because of his inability to trust in the Force. Much less believe in it, he cannot become a Jedi. For someone like Han, they think what they do is mere skill and luck when it could very well be the Force.

    Qui-gon is told by Anakin that he is a good pilot and that he can race pods, which Qui-gon points out that only a human with Jedi reflexes can do it, which is why is then demonstrated when he grabs Jar Jar's tongue and tells him to stop what he is doing. Anakin also tells him that he saw himself as an adult Jedi, coming back to free the slaves which he says happened in a dream. Lastly, he doesn't buy Qui-gon's explanation for having a Lightsaber and he says that there is no fooling the boy. He never once indicates that he senses the Force in the boy. He makes his guess that he is strong with the Force based on what he says and he can sense the genuine honesty in the boy. This is why he asks about his father and then tests him.

     
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  22. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Yeah, if we're looking at the very obvious additions to the concept of the force which occurred in the PT and discussing the extent to which, if at all, these contradict the concept presented in the OT, then we have a genuine discussion here.

    If people are seriously contending that there were no additions to the concept, then there's not really a discussion to have is there?
     
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  23. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    [​IMG]

    "I like the sound of that..." :cool:
     
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  24. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Luke : "That's not true...It's impossible !!!" [face_laugh][face_laugh][face_laugh]
     
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  25. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Yes, there is a difference. I think we're talking about two different things. You seem to be talking about whether Story Element X (fill in the blank) was necessary to tell the/one of the story(ies) Lucas wanted to tell circa 1994, when he started writing the prequels, or maybe even 1977, when he had general ideas for their narrative layout.

    However, I'm saying that this story:

    ... has enough internal logic, and progresses perfectly well from one element to the next, A-B-C, without the necessity of:

    -an unbalanced or unbalanceable Force
    -a thousand-year Sith plan
    -an interventionist Force
    -anyone being Chosen or created by said Force
    -a prophecy.

    Some of the above ideas are old ideas that Lucas made note of, way back when. Some of them might have been in the back of his head when actually filming the CT - though none of them are present in those films themselves (the nearest is the Son of the Suns prophecy line in... the ANH novelization?). And some of the ideas in the list might actually be newer creations. They are part of the story Lucas wanted to tell in the prequels as those films ended up being made. But those ideas are not present in the CT, and are not necessary in order to propel the story in the CT, plus its backstory (as listed above). Those pieces make narrative sense and could stand alone.

    Obviously if you were going to make movies directly out of that prequel backstory, you'd want some more action, more characters, dialogue, etc. The outline is pretty sparse. But 'more action, etc' does not have to change the worldbuilding. Lucas did change the worldbuilding - or at least changed the depiction of it - because he wanted to do something differently. Which is fine! My focus is simply that it was a change.



    By the way, I get the sense that maybe a lot of these prequel-initiated changes to what the audience was told or generally believed were done specifically to subvert expectations, as part of a pattern that is in the CT too. I'm not criticizing Lucas here, just check this out:

    Vader turns out to be Luke's father. Leia turns out to be Luke's sister. The way to win turns out to be not to play (Luke throws down his weapon). "Obi-Wan" was supposed to be killed in Episode I and Qui-Gon would take on his name and be the Kenobi we knew from the CT. Padme really was depicted with a double identity in The Phantom Menace. The Clones were the good guys (even the title Attack of the Clones seems to suggest that they might be bad). The Jedi turn out to be stodgy and stiff, appearing not quite as wise or as pure as we might have thought based on Ben's description of a seeming golden age. The Chancellor is really Darth Sidious. Anakin's turn is for love.

    That is a lot of subversion, and it's probably not a complete list. I think Lucas just likes it, as a storytelling device.

    I don't think we're disagreeing here.

    All movies. Or - more accurately (and this might seem strange) - ones I care about. Star Wars is important to me. A lot of it has been formative for me - both philosophically and in terms of learning about creativity (visual design and storytelling, for example). Asking questions as we have been helps me tease out what I like, what I don't like, what I can't make sense of - all so I can understand my love for the creation better, and so I can use that knowledge in my own creative process.
     
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