ST Over-reactions to The Last Jedi

It's funny, I can definitely see myself walking that same path, only in reverse, between today and, say, a couple of years from now.

My main problem with TLJ is that feeling that it does not "click" with the rest of the saga. But in time, I might be able to learn to appreciate it more as a film.

 

I think, because it's so beloved and been with us for so long, a lot of of us forget just how radical a departure TESB is from ANH. They're tonally on different sides of the same planet, and a lot of threads are actually not picked up naturally from that film at all.

I'll go as far as saying TLJ fits better with TFA than ANH fits with TESB.

Anecdotally? My wife was very surprised when I mentioned how upset some are that TLJ seems to depart radically from TFA. She, a very causal fan mind you, thought the films were seamless. And this is for someone who assumed Rey was Luke's daughter after TFA.

Me? I think one of TLJ's strengths is how oddly, and unexpectedly, it connects with TFA. There are places where RJ refuse to connect, including in areas that I do think need fleshing out. But that's something I can't judge until IX. I know many of us are talking about TLJ as if it were the end of the road, responsible for answering all, but lest we forget, this is the middle chapter.

 

That's an intersting point if view. Not sure what I think of that yet. When I think of the PT, I think of broad, static images with lots of detail, super saturated colors, and a feeling that the camera is mostly detached from the action. TLJ felt the opposite of that for me... an active, intimate camera, a variation in the use of color, and lots of specialty camera work in the action scenes. But I will think about this more.

 

People killed Lucas, people killed JJ, people killed Rian, and people will kill JJ once again. Probably Ron Howard too.

It's just like sports fans, maybe even worse. Everyone is a Monday morning quarterback. Everyone is a better GM from their couch. And everyone hating on these movies already knew how the movie should go before they even got to the theater. Once they don't see what they thought, it sucks and its a fact. Maybe you really just don't like Star Wars anymore? Its tough to face growing out of something you liked so much.

 

If we're talking RO to TLJ, and everything chronologically in between? Absolutely TLJ has closer kinship to the prequels.

But, then again, it also has pretty close kinship to TESB and ROTJ. And yet feels like something totally new for this franchise.

I think it's a weird, eclectic, hodge podge Star Wars film that really shouldn't work. Yet so, so does.

 

I'm not going to call anyone's names out, but I've been posting along side warriors on all sides pretty frequently over the last year.

Shockingly, the vast, overwhelming majority of people who's theories were obliterated just so happen to hate this film. Some of the most terse, vehement, angry responses to this film just so happen to be from super fans who were very much looking forward to certain Star Wars "musts", and now they're going to tell me it's because the film itself is just bad? Nope, doesn't work that way.

I respect my brother, who loathed the film, but at least acknowledges that it's well made. He literally said it's a good film, but a bad SW sequel. He's at least honest that he hates it because he didn't get what he wanted.

I hope, after things calm down, we get more nuanced reactions. The quality of a film should never be judged by the degree to which it validates fan fiction.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw I DPed.

 

I think that's right, but it's also why it just won't connect for everyone. And honestly, I get it. I think it'll be a classic entry in 15 years' time, but right now, it's going to alienate a lot of fans, just because it isn't what Star Wars is to them.

 

I don't feel bad for any of the new creators. If they didn't know a large chunk of SW fans had a tendency to react strongly, loudly, and oftentimes in very negative, over the top manners, they weren't paying attention to the last twenty years of fan culture. Taking on franchise work comes with a lot of baggage, some good, some not so good. This seems obvious to me.

Other than that, I think the notion of various fan "camps" has never been less relevant than with TLJ. More than I expected, I've noticed fans of all stripes and preferences tearing into the film as well as praising it. I think it's a divisive installment, and for the majority of fan reactions I've seen I'm comfortable taking these opinions as honest reactions, free from various conspiracy theories or bad faith motives.

 

From LFL's perspective, it's much better to have fans in uproar shouting at each other than to have muted satisfaction. It's made an impact, that's for sure.

 

I think that's true of some, but not enough to warrant blind generalisations that the people who hate this film were simply disappointed that their theories were obliterated (and I'm not saying you did that of course, I'm just using your post as a springboard because I have seen that kind of posts elsewhere on the forum).

I remember the pre-AOTC and pre-ROTS days online, and crazy theories were also the norm then. "Darth Sidious isn't Palpatine", to quote but one of them. And my memory could be fuzzy (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't remember ROTS being so very divisive and the people advocating the "DS isn't Palpatine" theory hating on the film because it had proved them wrong.

The difference? Palpatine and Darth Sidious were never set up by a prior film as being two different individuals. So when the fans who had read too much into it found out they were wrong, they accepted it (sometimes begrudgingly) and moved on, but ROTS was well-received by the community - overall. Sure, the prequel-haters hated it, maybe a bit less than TPM and AOTC, but did it trigger the kind of backlash we are seeing now? I don't remember it this way.

Now, TFA > TLJ is another story. Because Rey's identity was set up as a mystery. Because JJ Abrams begged us to unravel the mystery of Rey's parentage. "Look, she is the only main SW character ever not to have a surname." "Look, that's Luke's lightsaber calling out to her." "Look, that's Luke's lightsaber triggering a vision of herself as a child." "Look, that's Maz asking Han who the girl is before an abrupt cut that implies the audience is not yet worthy of knowing the answer" "Look, here she is besting a trained Force User, and a Skywalker no less, at his own signature move." "Look, here she is figuring out by herself that the Force can influence the weak-minded", etc.

So now, when the audience who agonised over the mystery for two years find out it was all for nothing, they feel cheated out of a satisfying resolution by the filmmakers. And while I'm glad Rey didn't turn out to be a Skywalker, I can understand where they're coming from. What they don't realise though, is that the problem doesn't come from TLJ. It comes from TFA. Abrams made mistakes in the way he handled the issue. He should not have framed it as a big mystery that would be revealed down the line. But he likes mysteries too much and maybe didn't anticipate that the whole thing would take such proportions.

 

Yep. I always figured the film would be divisive. My first viewing more than confirmed that feeling.

Despite some light grumbling, there wasn't really much to hate about TFA. It was a brilliant exercise in how to pull off a good throwback, and while it did subvert norms in some ways, JJ shellacked it with such a thick nostalgic coat that, to this day, a lot of people don't realize it really does take a few turns that, on paper, would cause uproar.

RJ just let his SW freak flag fly high and proud. It wasn't a safe choice, but with each viewing I'm more convinced that it was the absolute right choice.

 

There are people who are over-the-top with their hate, and love, for this film. It just sucks when people lump in those who have gripes with the movie with those who are obvious trolls. One poster in this thread implied that people don't like this film because they are racist and misogynist.

It's a movie, if you don't like it you are not wrong and unenlightened. It is not some masterpiece, and it is not the case that people who don't like it are drooling simpletons. Conversely, it is not a hack job and it is not garbage. It is a decent movie with some flaws. It was a very enjoyable movie in many respects.

For me, I think the movie has serious problems relating to story content and established character traits. I can forgive stuff like the canto bight sequence and slow car chase in space, but when you change Luke Skywalker so fundamentally you are going to alienate tons of fans. For me, because of what is revealed of Luke's past and present character, it makes it feel like this film isn't even part of Star Wars. In my view it cheapened a lot of what Luke did in the OT. That is what really bothers me so much. I can see why people feel betrayed, so to speak. I think that is why you are seeing so many people lash out. It really is a reversal of who he is at the end of ROTJ. A person can change, but they broke him.

I left this movie so confused and conflicted, but I've really pinned down my feelings of disappointment to how they handled the development of Luke's character.


I am not excited for IX at this point, which is saying something. I saw TFA 3 times, TLJ once.

 

Side stepping the fact that the "mystery" presented in TFA was never "What is the identity of Rey's parents", I don't think it was a mistake to create mystery in TFA.

IMO the mistake was assuming that any given answer to said mystery was the right one, and everyone else just didn't put the puzzle pieces together correctly. Inherent to all mysteries is jumping to false conclusions. Disappointment is the point.

JJ threw in some of his usual mystery boxes. But JJ wasn't hired to write and direct TLJ. So, by sheer virtue of the approach Disney took with this trilogy, the next writer was going to be responsible for handling JJ's mysteries.

And RJ's approach was largely to reveal that the boxes were empty, which unto itself would've been a mistake. Except RJ took it a step further and made meaning out of the emptiness.

I think Lucasfilm was actually pretty damn brilliant in allowing those mystery boxes. It stoked the fanbase, kept us salivating for more, got even a lot of the general public engaged. It was a great hook that paid of in an unexpected, and deliciously divisive, way.

 

Smart ***!

I get that, but for me, the PT's main identifying feature is how it looks. Not to bash, but not much else really grabbed my attention. I like some of the characters, others less so, and the overall plot never surprised me. In trying to draw parallels in characterization or story choices (even just types of story choices), I don't really see them. TLJ just feel so "modern" compared to the other saga movies.... even when compared to TFA. I was good with that, btw. I think Star Wars needed some updating in story-telling style. Hmmm... still need to think about this more.

 

I think they did know. Mark Hamill remarks that once when he asked Rian if they should do something because "it's what the fans want" and Johnson replied so,etching like, "No, we should ask if it's what WE want." Now I do think they have to consider want the fans want at some level, but the fact is, you cannot please the entire fan base. Can't be done. The Star Wars fan base is too big and diverse. So they kinda have to just make decisions and go with it. Pretty much, fans will either like what they get, or won't. I mostly didn't during the PT era, but I am now.

 

Well, I agree with all of your points (bar the first one, I think - more on that below), and that's what I meant by TFA, and not TLJ, setting the next film up for failure with a lot of its audience. Star Wars films were always full of "holes" that the audience loved filling in with more or less crazy theories, but TFA was the first to make a big deal out of nothing. I cannot conceive of a world where Abrams didn't know that Rey's parents were junkers prior to or when making TFA, so he knew the whole set up would deflate like a burst balloon once TLJ came out.

Regarding that first point, if you're saying that the mystery of Rey's parentage wasn't the central mystery of TFA, then we are in agreement. If you're saying that it wasn't one of the mysteries presented by the film at all, then I have to object, with the elements mentioned in my previous post as evidence.

 

I still maintain that the Rey's parentage "hype" was mostly manufactured by fandom. For some reason, a lot of fans want a story where everyone is related to everyone else. To me? I was 90% sure that Rey wasn't related to anyone. I thought the evidence and hints were all there. To me, Maz's talk with Rey told us what the issue was... Rey's desire to feel belonging. But lots of folks just WANTED a different answer, and so intreprated the information through that lens. Not a problem, so long as folks don't get so attached to their conclusions, theories, and wants that another answers crushes their enjoyment.

 

What I'll never understand is that we have "fans" who legitimately haven't liked much of anything with the Star Wars name on it since 1983. For some, it's even 1980. That means some have disliked 6 movies and 2 TV series. If you find yourself in that camp, why do you even bother anymore? I have a friend that continues to see all of the movies, but actively dislikes most of them, or at best, thinks they are just "meh".

If you haven't liked anything Star Wars since Return of the Jedi or even Empire, are you really a Star Wars fan? Or, do you just like 2-3 movies? If I consistently found myself disliking every new Star Wars release, I wouldn't put myself through the trouble. I can honestly say there isn't a Star Wars movie that I've walked out of the theater that I didn't enjoy. Now, certain episodes haven't aged as well for me and I don't get the same sense of enjoyment out of The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones as I once did, but that's be expected when you've seen these movies dozens of times.

I do feel like it's a vocal minority that is fiercely attacking this film on the internet. It wouldn't be on track to have the 2nd highest box office gross of all time if the average movie goers or even the average Star Wars fans actively disliked it.

I don't post on here often, but I've been on these boards for over 15 years now. In that time, I've seen all manner of fan backlash. All of the prequels, the cartoons, and now the sequel trilogy have been attacked by "fans". It is what it is. I just say that you can't please everyone.

 

Well, look, it's possible but I still think they were playing us for fools.

For example, I didn't want Rey to be related to anyone. Yet I was really disappointed after watching TFA, because I thought the movie had set her up to be revealed as a Skywalker, a Palpatine, or some such nonsense. And it couldn't have been wishful thinking, unless it was a different form of it... "unwishful thinking", I guess.

I am a filmmaker and a cinephile and I think I know a thing or two about set ups and resolution. The fact that Rey had no surname is a conscious decision on the part of the filmmakers. It begs the question as to why she doesn't have one, especially in a universe where all the important characters, even slaves, have one. It doesn't mean the answer is "Because it's a secret" of course, but the question itself is justified. Luke's lightsaber was the worst offender: The filmmakers set it up as the trigger of Rey's flashback to her chilhood, in a sequence of visions that all seemed interconnected (the fall of Ben Solo, the Knights of Ren, Luke in the rubble of his Temple... Rey being left on Jakku by unseen people? In film grammar, this means something, and again, it was a conscious decision on the part of the filmmakers.

It's like the Chekov's gun rule. Except the gun turns out to be useless in the third act.

 

I won't try to change your mind. If you didn't enjoy the film that's totally okay, but I'd like to offer a different perspective:

I totally felt I was seeing Luke Skywalker. Yes he was broken, but who wouldn't be after decades of carrying the galaxy on their shoulders. He shrugged off his responsibilities and ran away from everything to a self-imposed exile because he felt that he had failed utterly. Then when he meets Rey and is forced to confront his demons, he is able to drag himself out of the deep pit of despair he had dug himself into. The strength this must have taken is the kind of strength that defines Luke Skywalker's character and in the end his struggle is all the more satisfying considering how far he had fallen from the path. And in the end he became one with the Force, not out of despair but with "peace and purpose" (who knows what that purpose will turn out to be!).

Now, if you didn't like the way TLJ handled Luke's character then that's fine. You may disagree entirely with everything I have just written. That's okay too. But it's worth remembering that Luke doesn't belong to you. He doesn't belong to me. He doesn't even belong to Mark Hamill. He's a character in a story and characters change and grow and evolve, and sometimes we don't always agree with the choices they make or the direction the creators choose to take them in. It's all about personal opinion and what one fan loves about a movie another might hate.

 

I looked at Rey's parentage reveal being "deflated" in the same way the reveal in Blade Runner: 2049 was. Purposeful, well crafted, and making disappointment the point, not a troublesome problem.

I'm saying that TFA literally never poses the question "Who are Rey's parents". Rey never, not once, even implies she's unsure of her familial identity. Nobody asks, even once, who her family is. For all the conjecture from audiences, and sly suggestions from the writer, within the actual film it's not at all a mystery.

There are mysteries surrounding Rey, yes. But "who are her parents" isn't one of them.

 

Rey's parentage was never hyped by JJ or LFL or anyone. That came down to the fandom, especially those who felt certain she would have known genes. Daisy herself debunked most of the conjecture, and emphasised the importance of family being who you belong with, not necessarily blood relations. The nature of fictional construction persuaded me that her lack of parents was the important thing - not who those parents were. LFL did not stoke those flames.

LFL have actually been surprisingly straight about a lot of things.

 

What a spot-on comparison. When I watched BR2049 and they started hinting at you-know-who being the child, I was sorely disappointed that they would even consider going there. Then the revelation came and I breathed again.

The difference? The set up and revelation are contained in the same film. It's not like those in favour of you-know-who being the child had 2 years to get used to the idea they were right.

I understand. And I think you are correct.