main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Padmé Amidala MEGAthread - Don't look at her that way. It makes her uncomfortable

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ganesh Ujwal, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Again with the reasoning that freeing Shmi would be a massive undertaking. Now you talk about force and violence, attacking and politics. Remember, Qui-Gon freed a slave in TPM and it required no attacking, no violence and it caused ZERO political issues.
    Why must freeing Shmi be so very, very complicated? Again, Cliegg did it and he was just a farmer.
    But I guess he is is richer and more capable and more caring than the whole Jedi Order and the planet Naboo put together.

    Watto would not bet two slaves against one pod, that is what we know. We also know he later sold Shmi and it seems that did not make him super rich so it was not a huge prize. So Padme/Jedi could have just bought Shmi and then freed her. No need to fighting or attacking the Hutts or involving them in any way. And no one would have known about this.

    To the former, Anakin suffering nightmares for days/weeks and then having his mother die in his arms after having been treated horribly. That is quite a lot of negative emotions for Anakin.

    To the latter, if Padme tried but failed for some reason then that should be IN the film.
    If she was not allowed, what stopped her? Politics? Is Padme one to care about that?
    If the Jedi, that would give Anakin a massive reason to be angry at them. Padme wanted to free his mother and the Jedi told her no?

    Simple, Padme frees Shmi shortly after TPM. She offers Shmi a place on Naboo but Shmi elects to stay on Tatooine as a free person. Then some time later she meets, falls in love with and marries Cliegg Lars. She moves to where Cliegg and Owen lives. When Anakin has had enough of his nightmares and goes to Tatooine, he first goes to their old home but Shmi is not there. So he goes to Watto to ask where she is and Watto tells him. And we go from there.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Qui-Gon used tactics to free a slave, using a bet. Even that situation was something that could've not worked out if Anakin had lost. And Watto was unwilling to part with more than 1.

    Cliegg Lars' situation isn't developed in the movies to have happened so soon after TPM. We have no real structure for how that happened. Personally, I think I got the impression Watto had fallen on hard times and sold her. The jedi order aren't developed to be rich in the movies, to my memory. For Padme, this assumes she has any ability to put efforts into this single goal, from a political standpoint moreso.
    But I think it feeds into it more to have a more harsh emotional structure connected, in his mom still being a slave weighing on him.
    I didn't say it didn't.
    That was a hypothetical situation that I think the movie could've stood to have.
    The jedi are given no real reason or perception or have the power to make a call on what Padme is allowed to do in that arena.
     
    RogueDianoga likes this.
  3. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    I propose the way in which Shmi's situation is handled is the most workable option available. Though perhaps a little tricky, it's the most streamlined, feels the least contrived and facilitates all the necessary story elements.

    - The Skywalkers need to get connected with the Lars'. Free or not, Shmi needs to stay on Tatooine.

    - Shmi's killers theoretically could've been anyone, but having them be the Tusken Raiders establishes another connection between both trilogies.

    - The Jedi don't have the jurisdiction to free her, and don't bend rules like Qui-Gon. Doing so opens a messy can of worms on many levels.

    - The Jedi freeing Shmi also sends the wrong message to Anakin: that it's ok to indulge in your personal wishes, like a vigilante. And as a Jedi it's his responsibility to overcome his fears of loss. For Anakin, his mother remaining a slave is a source of resentment, but it's not the emphasis. Being mad at the Jedi isn't the fuel which drives his quest for power to stop death, ultimately it's the personal guilt and pain he carries within himself that compels him.

    - Padmé could try, but fails. Then what? Does she tell Anakin and make things awkward? Does she not tell him? Or Padmé tries and succeeds, does she tell him or not? Would it feel like Anakin ends up liking Padme because of her actions? Whether failing or successful, both options end up being prickly.

    - Why take such an important part of Cliegg's story and his active role in the saga away from him by having others free Shmi? I feel the story benefits most from having he and Shmi meet and he frees her. It gives their marriage the proper gravity. For one, he must've sold a lot of stuff to buy her, which helps show how much they loved each other. I see it as more romantic and poetic this way. Much like it was love that freed Anakin from his chains to the Emperor, and Han from his stasis in Carbonite.

    - If Padmé or the Jedi freed her, Palpatine is bound to know about it. Either through his association with them, or from Anakin telling him. This opens too high a probability that he'd be behind her inevitable tragic demise, whatever it may have been. Or basically, it makes it practically impossible to debate that he wouldn't be. This of course gives him too much power over such a crucial turn of events, thus creating a contrived feeling in the writing.

    Palpatine already does enough in the story, we don't need him killing Shmi too. Her death was sad enough as it is, this would just add insult to injury, and make Palpatine way too omnipresent, pulling all the strings of the story. I see Anakin and Shmi's relationship is sacred, it's the heart of the saga. Putting Palpatine's hands in there makes it too profane.

    Realistically, if Palpatine wanted something to happen to Shmi, wouldn't he arrange to have her freed himself, and then orchestrate something to happen? Life on Tatooine is dangerous for both slaves and the free, and Palpatine undoubtedly knows of Anakin's attachment, so it seems he was content to allow the hands of fate to do their work.

    - The only wrinkle I see in the way it's depicted is that some people think it makes Padmé look uncaring. E.K. Johnston explored a Padmé attempt, but it creates some anticipated problems, one of which of course was Palpatine knowing and his interference installing it. Another was the difficulties Sabé experienced. It's not as easy as it might sound on paper.

    Perhaps it's fine if Padmé tries and fails, but for the sake of brevity and simplicity, I think it works better to just not get into it in the films, like it or not. And why rub salt in Anakin's wounds?

    My idea would be, sometime between leaving Tatooine and arriving on Coruscant, Padmé could ask Qui-Gon if something could be done for Shmi, he informs her he'll what he can and that it's best left as a Jedi matter for many reasons. And as we know she repected Anakin's dream to become a Jedi and all that entailed, so she left it at that. And though she occasionally disagreed with Qui-Gon she still deferred to him.
    Arguably it could be in the film, but I think it would be more cumbersome to have it. Being a heavy issue, and Padmé already dealing with Naboo, there's no smooth way to have it in there without wobbling up the momentum. During the Japor Snippet scene Padmé knows Ani misses his mother and promises to take care of him, it seems implied she understands there's little that can be done about Shmi for now.
     
    Valiowk likes this.
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    He used the bet just because he did not have Tatooine currency. Plus watto DID sell Shmi so you can not claim he would never sell her.

    Again, is Cliegg Lars more wealthy than the entire Jedi Order?
    As for Padme, would she care about the politics when it comes to helping someone that she owes a favor? Padme has not been established as that kind of character.

    But this paints the Jedi as clueless, Anakin spends ten years worried about his mother and the Jedi either never notice or they don't care. In TPM, they could see through him and saw his worry and fear about his mother. Did they loose that ability? If not, if they "scanned" Anakin a year later and saw the same issue, would they not act?
    Take Obi-Wan and Anakin's nightmares. If he knows that Anakin is still worried about his mother, is still attached, why does he not take the dreams as a warning?

    You made the argument that Padme might not be allowed to. To which I say, if politics, then I don not see Padme as one that cares if she feels strongly enough to free Shmi. And if the Jedi, that would give Anakin a big reason to resent them.

    Simple, Shmi and Cliegg meet after she has been freed, fall in love, marries and she moves to where Cliegg lives.

    Same thing

    Not really as Qui-Gon freeing Anakin caused no issues what so ever politically speaking.

    And what message is being sent with the Jedi saying "We could free your mother but we will let her suffer as a slave because you need to learn a lesson!"
    Also, if the jedi are like this but still have some decency, they could free Shmi but not tell Anakin.
    Plus, if the Jedi have this mindset then they don't understand how people function.
    If Anakin knew that his mother was free and lived a good life, he would worry less and have an easier time of letting go.

    Not really, Padme is shown as one that does not give up. So the only reason for her failing would be if Shmi had already been sold and freed. So then she could think that Shmi would contact Anakin and leave it at that. That could also happen if she does free Shmi, she figures that Shmi would contact her son just to let him know that she is free. Or she contacts the Jedi order and tells them but they don't tell Anakin.

    So a marriage does not have a proper gravity unless one person frees the other from slavery?
    Also Cliegg has a very minor role in the SW saga, he is a plot device essentially. He exists to make sure that Shmi is on the Homestead and thus brings Owne into it and then to set up the terrible way shmi died.
    How much character does Owen have in AotC? Or Beru?

    Say that Shmi was freed soon after TPM and Anakin knew that. She met Cliegg and moved and Anakin knew that too. So in AotC, when told to bring Pamde back to Naboo, he argues that this is stupid and naboo would be the first place that an assassin would look. So he takes her to Tatooine instead. He knows it well and it is out of the way. So they come to the homestead, meet Cliegg, Shmi and the rest. Spend some time getting to know them and Anakin is happy, both for being back with his mother and the romance with Padme is happening. Then Shmi gets take by Sand People, Anakin and the others rush off but he is faster than the others so he alone catches up with the raiders. He is angry but tries to stay calm be diplomatic, like a good Jedi. But he fails and the Sand People panic and kills Shmi. Anakin looses it and kills all of them, even some that try to run or throws down their weapons. He kills in hate and starts donw the dark path.

    People are already arguing that Palpatine planned EVERYTHING in the PT. That he knew that the TF would fail to kill the Jedi, that they would free Padme. He sent Maul to Tatooine knowing that he would fail. In AotC he knew that the bomb would fail, that the second attempt would fail, that obi-Wan knew Dex and that Dex could Id the dart and so on. The writing already is contrived.

    Again, people have already made Palpatine into someone that knows all that will happen and is behind everything.

    No it is as simple or hard as the writer wants. You could have Pamde sendign someone to buy Shmi and then frees her. Shmi elects to stay on Tatooine and Padme is content. She informs the Jedi about this but they don't tell Anakin. In AotC, Padme tells him that his mother has been freed when his dreams of her comes up. Then when thye go to Tatooine, they go to Watto to find where Shmi is. And we go from there.

    Disagree that it would be cumbersome. Shmi is talked about after they leave Tatooine so she still matters to Anakin. And Qui-Gon was shown to care about her. And Padme owes her thanks.
    For both of them to go "**** her, we got what we wanted." Does both a disservice.

    When writing characters, good authors would ask "What would this character do in this moment?"
    And other times they write the character doing a thing but then realizing that this goes against their character. So they would then need to figure out a situation where it makes sense that the character does this thing.

    Less good authors just bends the characters and have them do whatever the plots needs to happen.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  5. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I didn't say never. I said that Cliegg Lars' situation isn't developed in the movies to have happened so soon after TPM. We have no real structure for how that happened. Personally, I think I got the impression Watto had fallen on hard times and sold her.
    That assumes this would be something the entire or even more than a few of the jedi order would put their focus on. I don't necessarily think it would be, even if the jedi have money to personally use. It's a big universe. Many people suffer. The jedi have no reason to focus on this one person and/or planet.
    I think both Padme and the jedi would have to care about the politics if they restrict their abilities to do much of anything outside her power structure. And, as suggested in AOTC, I think Padme would be unwilling to aggressively step outside of her sanctioned abilities, even if she had the power to, which I don't necessarily think she would, if it's not something sanctioned by the senate.
    I disagree. It's not developed as a case of never knowing or not caring, to me. Moreso that this isn't their priority, and it isn't their perception to support Anakin's obsessive and/or negative emotions. However, in that very movie, I think it's suggested that the jedi's abilities are greatly diminished.

    The dreams aren't developed to be something that Obi-Wan sees as premonitions. Yoda is questioning of them in ROTS. Obi-Wan's words suggest he thinks they're dreams.
    Padme is very much shown to respect the structure of democracy. Even if she were to try, on her own, that doesn't mean she'd succeed, because she'd have little to no power and weight behind her if she even tried. Similar to the jedi, who have no political approval and/or clout to do anything on tatooine. And I'd suggest that I think an issue with the jedi is their attachment to the senate, like that, to me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  6. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    It makes sense to me that in the Republic buying a slave even to free her (especially as the money could then be used to buy another slave) is illegal and/or considered pretty unethical.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  7. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    what a load of nonsense
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Not really. The government is shown to be pretty corrupt before Palpatine became Chancellor. They let a whole section of the galaxy fall under the control of a criminal organization and have to bargain just to gain access to their space routes. It wouldn't be surprising if such a law existed.
     
  9. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    so...Qui-Gon freeing Anakin was also illegal then, if this hypothetical law existed.
     
    Darth__Lobot likes this.
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    [​IMG]


    However, what is more likely is that much of the Republic either didn't know or did care about slaves in the Outer Rim. Padme was probably given reassurances by Palpatine, who wouldn't want her fre. So he snowed Padme and she eventually forgot about it.
     
  11. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015


    I liked how these deleted scenes gave Hayden and Natalie more to do. You can see why Padme doesn't always like her career 'cause the Senate won't let her help people. She's actually a pretty nice and caring humanitarian for humans and aliens by Star Wars standards. She went from being a monarch, basically the president of a planet, to wanting to help everyone in the galaxy. You can see why she inspired both Mon Mothma and Bail Organa. And she's realistic about it. She's been doin' this since she was 17, and now she's in her 20s. Badass politician, or what a political representative ought to be.

    As for Hayden, he gets more to do in expressing his isolation and how he loves people and he puts all that on Padme...which is too much. Shouldn't idealize anybody. Admire her work ethic and wait until you're 21 at least, Anakin, since I think he's either 19 or 20 here. I don't recall Anakin's age. But he's the guy who had a crush on the female principal as a result of her protecting him from bullies, but he shoulda waited until he was 25 or so, honestly, but you feel bad for him 'cause he's a former slave and he's stuck in the mentality. Palpatine took advantage of him, and Yoda and Obi-Wan could see it.
     
    Mostly Handless and Iron_lord like this.
  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Anakin is 20 in AOTC. And Padmé is 14 in TPM.
     
    SateleNovelist11 likes this.
  13. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Thanks. That's what I thought. I think it makes more sense of he's 10 in TPM and then 20 in AOTC. But he was such a young general in TCW. Explains a lot.
     
  14. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    Would it have ruined Padme's career, be considered scandalous to where she would have to leave the Senate, if Anakin had openly left the Jedi to marry her? To me that does seem the implication of the line "You're studying to become a Jedi knight, I'm a Senator."
     
  15. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    If Anakin openly left the Jedi to marry her it wouldn't be a scandal or any sort of problem. But they're both dedicated to their careers and want to continue with them, and want to encourage each other to do so. Leaving their careers is not an option. A Jedi in a relationship with a Senator is a scandal and a problem. Primarily, it's a conflict of interest. The Jedi serve the Senate, if a Jedi was with a Senator, that Senator would have a bias in their decision making. Or at least, if the relationship became known, one or both would be forced to resign because of the potential bias. And for the Jedi, the same applies.

    Anakin wanted to be a both a Jedi and a regular person, but the two lifestyles don't mix, and we see why. His decision making centered around himself and the people in his personal bubble, rather than everybody equally.
     
    Lulu Mars and darth-sinister like this.
  16. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 18, 2021
    I think Anakin actually wanted to leave the Order, but he wanted the war to end first.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If the ROTS novel is to be believed, Padmé insisted that he stay because she thought he needed to be a Jedi and that the Order and the war effort needed him.
     
    Tia, Lulu Mars and Mostly Handless like this.
  18. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    He also tells Ahsoka in TCW: "I understand wanting to leave the order."
    It all adds up.
     
  19. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    Would it have been better if Padme had just vanished from public life, just gone away to secretly help raise Leia and passed away offscreen? Has Lucas explained why he went with something different from what most fans interpreted other than just to increase the sense of tragedy (and conclusiveness)?
     
  20. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't know for sure if he's said anything, but, in my opinion, Padme surviving for a time to raise Leia after that doesn't offer a lot character and story wise, to me.
     
  21. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Its confusing because Leia says she remembers her mother being sad (ROTJ), which indicates that what would have been better is Padme lives on Alderaan, and she sends Luke to the Lars homestead to keep him safe, fearing he’ll be like his father.
     
  22. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    The issue is that it doesn't make a lot of sense for Padme to place Leia so much in the political world on her own, or for Vader to not suspect Leia would be his child, whether Vader would know Padme was pregnant or not.

    What you pitch is also not what Obi-Wan told Luke in ROTJ, which was that they were hidden from Vader when they were born to protect them both from the emperor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  23. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    It actually works, one is really hidden on Tattooine, a arid planet and Leia is hidden in plain sight.

    Then again it was risky to use the Lars homstead, I mean Vader’s mother is buried there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  24. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    Why would Padme or Yoda or Obi-Wan allow or want Leia to be hidden in plain site? What does that accomplish for them in securing Leia's safety? And why would Vader no suspect that Padme's child is also his?
     
  25. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Its a tactic, sometimes visibility is a cloak. Anakin/ Vader believes his child is dead with his dead wife. He has no reason to suspect Leia Organa is his daughter, he just thinks she is Bail’s daughter.