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PT Padme's death (untagged TROS spoilers)

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Ghost, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Lucas was showing some weird kind of Force connection in ROTS between Anakin and Padme, with both ruminations before the fall, and the death/rebirth montage. I don't like how the Sequel Trilogy played out either, but since it is now one saga, improving ROTS this way improves both my opinion of the ST and of ROTS (slightly for both but still). Intention doesn't matter with canon, what's actually depicted matters.
     
  2. Mark Pierre

    Mark Pierre Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2016
    How does ST in any way improve the canon? IMHO, it completely wrecks the canon, including characters, storylines, the force etc....
     
  3. CaptainEO

    CaptainEO Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    This thread just gave me the horrible revelation that discussion of the saga will now have the influence of the sequel trilogy. I guess I have to deal with it the same way you have to deal with relatives talking politics at thanksgiving lol
     
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  4. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Padme died from a broken heart, which eventually affected her health after giving birth to twins. Yes, a person's state of mind or emotions can affect his or her health. Especially after experiencing emotional or physical trauma. Or both. If Palpatine had been responsible for her death, he would have become aware of the twins. He wasn't aware of Luke until "The Empire Strikes Back" and Leia until "Return of the Jedi".
     
  5. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    I think that's the right crime but the wrong culprit. I think Vader, blinded by rage, agony, and selfishness, drained Padme to save himself. I don't think that he realized as he was doing it that he was doing it, but he did it. From Stover's ROTS novelization:

    "You did it. You killed her. You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself ... It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-"

    I think Sidious recognized and understood what Vader had done to survive. He was surprised and delighted, but didn't make it happen. That one's on Vader, and Sidious was more than happy to stick that truth in his heart like a knife. "It seems, in your anger, you killed her." Don't you dare blame me for your actions. I didn't make you kill her. I didn't even suggest that you should kill her. It completes the tragic irony. Pursuing the power to give life, he embraces the dark side, but that only gives him the power to take, and thus he kills the one he was desperate to save. Thematically, dramatically, metaphorically, the responsibility for Padme's death can only go one place, and that place is on Vader's head.

    "He just made her so sad that she died" might work for another character, but that's not Padme. She was protrayed as a fighter since we've known her, since she was a teenager.

    I look at it this way. Obi-Wan was betrayed by the troops he had repeatedly risked his life alongside. He also witnessed the demise of democracy, walked through the smoking ruins of his home that was littered with the corpses of Jedi, saw footage of his brother, practically his foster-son, slaughtering those Jedi, including children. He then battled his brother, cut him down, and left him to burn to death, despite the fact that he loved.him, and it ripped him apart to do it. And Obi-Wan endured. But not Padme? It was all just too much for her?

    Nope. Nope-ity nope nope nope. I don't buy it. I will never buy it. And even if that's what the author was thinking when he wrote it, I'm not persuaded that I should care. Like ... at all. If it's terrible, and the author left wide open space for a better interpretation, I get to use it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  6. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Palpatine may have been genuinely mistaken, believing that Padme died sooner than she actually did. He is not all-knowing, and his mental survey of Anakin's own memories is all he has to go on for information here.
     
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  7. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Padme's emotional state had effected her health after giving birth to twins, which can be physically demanding for a woman. She died of a broken heart.
     
  8. Triad Moons

    Triad Moons Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    I don't think the argument is necessarily against the idea of Padme dying of despair. The argument has always been two things:

    1): Leia's account (take at its most literal), the sticking point. Most Padme fans seem to reconcile with the idea of Padme dying of despair if she gets to live long enough to validate Leia's memory of her.

    2): Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, as I remember it, have been criticized for not only downsizing its lead female character, but restructuring her more to the benefit of Anakin than her own arc. Padme's tragic death, immediately after the birth of her children, was just another sign of Lucas making her less proactive (weaker) as the character.

    That's why so many people latched onto Padme's Rebellion subplot, the concept where she would've attacked Anakin on Mustafar (but failed to follow through), and the concept art of Padme carrying the twins on her back. I think if any of those ideas remained in ROTS, there'd be fewer people saying Padme dying of despair is out of character for her.
     
  9. MissAlyssa

    MissAlyssa Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Even in the novelization, it does not suggest that Anakin drained life from Padme.

    The quote is Anakin realizing that on Mustafar, Padme was pleading with him to run away with her. In that moment, he couldn't see her and was only focused on himself and his new power. He regrets not listening to her. And the "final cruelty of the Sith" is that he's trapped at the end in a hell of his own making. He has no one to love and no one who loves him. He just has a "shadow" that accepts all the anger and pain he's left with.

    As far as Padme's ending, it's all about the inevitability of death, IMO. Anakin thought he could cheat death and gain some power that would stop Padme from ever leaving him. But, his actions are what led to his prophecy coming true. In the end, it's exactly as Yoda says, death will happen and we must cope with it (although, I actually dislike Yoda in that scene as he is incapable of ever offering emotional support when it's needed). The medical droids are also confused, even medicine and science can't save Padme. There is no logic to it. It's her time to go and that's just life.

    Her losing the will to life, is a common enough trope especially in tragedies. Anakin is driven to commit evil acts because not even death will separate him from his lover, to the point where he corrupts his soul. Padme watching her love lose himself like that broke not only her heart, but her soul.
     
  10. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2010
    Could Anakin force choking her have caused some other effect to make her die?
     
  11. Rogue Knight

    Rogue Knight Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2020
    Is it possible Padme died in order to protect the twins. For example, she knew that if Anakin sensed she died it would be more likely that the twins would remain hidden and he would think they died along with her. I know Padme isn't exactly a force user but it is possible she was attuned enough to the force to "will" herself to die in order to save them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
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  12. Maythe14thBeWithYou

    Maythe14thBeWithYou Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2014
    I agree, the mere trauma of facing ALL of that at once was my opinion too.
     
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, no, he wouldn't, because he made it very clear through dialogue that Padme's death was not medically explainable. It if were simply the case that she was too emotionally exhausted to fight against life-threatening injuries, then the medical droid would not have said that she was perfectly medically healthy. It would have said she was succumbing to life-threatening injuries and it wouldn't have been confused.

    People need to stop looking for a rational, physical reason for Padme's death. There isn't one. There isn't supposed to be.
     
  14. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Because for them, the idea that a woman who just gave birth to two babies, a woman previously established to be a fighter, would just die like that makes little to no sense.
     
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Some women commit suicide after giving birth. Weak women, strong women, all types of women. Same goes for men who have just had children. There's no moral dimension to it, it's just a thing that happens.

    What happens to Padme is a kind of euphemistic, fantasy version of that, but ultimately she dies from a broken heart. She loses the will to go on living. The story of the prequels is a tragedy. Everyone doesn't find their inner strength and power on to fight another day.

    Anakin loses the will to go on living as well. The difference is he allows his body to continue on as an evil, unnatural entity. Padme doesn't have that option and would never entertain it if she did. So why is she seen as "weak"? Maybe she's just unbearably sad.
     
  16. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Subscription Screaming Service star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    [​IMG]

    "This will work to our advantage"

    Sidious went so far as to publicly acknowledge to his subordinates that Padme made "an unexpected move" but that, with a treaty nno longer a possibility, her killing herself on a suicide mission to reclaim the planet presented an automatic Plan B to keep The Grand Plan moving forward.

    Once Anakin was primed to replace Maul, Padme really needed to go. Same as Shmi. Same as how urgently he attempted to talk Anakin into abandoning an unconscious Obi Wan to go down with the ship.
     
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  17. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    As I've posted elsewhere, Padme was a strong character who normally could've withstood the stress of all the crises and problems she went through. But this was not a normal situation. She was hit in rapid-fire fashion at all of her vulnerable points, with no time to adjust, insufficient support, and no real hope of things getting better. I'm sure if even one of those tragedies had been removed from the equation, she might've been badly broken, but could've rallied. But that's not the way it turned out. She's tough, but not invincible.

    And I don't factor the ST into the matter at all, because it takes so much effort to bend and shape both the Original Six and the ST so that they can fit together that I can't make them relatable.
     
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  18. Nhisso

    Nhisso Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2020
    I think, frankly, her death's lack of a good explanation was just another over sight by Lucas and gang.We all love reading in to every thing in the SW series; it's something we SW fans love to do lol. Including me, of course. But, I just think this was an over sight. If her windpipe was crushed so much that she was going to die from it, she wouldn't have survived through birth without oxygen.

    Second, she had the strength to make it through birth and name the kids. Therefore, and unfortunately, the whole "mental break down" thing is probably the most plausible. Dying of a broken heart is a real medical thing. Extreme trauma can cause hardening something (cant remember now) in the heart causing blood flow and respiratory issues.

    However, the ending of RotS, in general leaves a ton to be desired.

    Medical technology would have been advanced enough that Bail and his wife would have already had a baby girl if they wanted one. Or at least a baby. Wookiepedia says a doc told Bail and Breha any further attempts at having a child would kill Breha, but I find that hard to believe based on the tech available in the SW universe, especially in fancy places like Alderaan.

    With that in mind, it also bugs me Lucas and company had such a hard time tying up loose ends with Padme and the Skywalker kids:

    -Maybe I missed it, but why was Obi Wan assigned to guarding (or watching him at least) Luke but no one guarded Leia? Did Leia not have high enough midichlorians and so Yoda thought she wasnt going to be a force user? A jedi should have been assigned to Alderaan to watch from afar like Luke had.

    -Of course, in our real world, there are plenty of moms and dads who cant get over something traumatic and it makes them unable to function properly, but I feel like Padme was stronger than that and would have lived for her kids, especially twins. I don't think she was portrayed as being that weak in the other movies to justify her dying of a broken heart or mental breakdown. And the medical droids would have known about a crushed larynx and brain damage from lack of oxygen or the inability to breathe properly any more.

    - We know force users can kill from afar, even without seeing their victim live on video or in person, (it's canon, but spoilers are needed to reveal why so ill leave it at that) and we know Vader could at least kill from afar if he saw the person on "video chat" or holographic chat, you'd think Lucas could have done something where the Emperor drains Padme's life, or at least allude to him using Plagueis' (sp?) recipe for restoring Anakin via Padme's life force. But, Anakin wasn't dead anyways, so that kinda takes out OP's theory. Technology saved Anakin.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Just as Obi-Wan says to himself ( in his thoughts ) in the novelization.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    How could it possibly be an "oversight"? He wrote it into the script. He literally had a character state, for the benefit of the audience, that there was no medical explanation.
     
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  21. Valiowk

    Valiowk Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2000
    I've always viewed Padmé's death as being similar to Greek tragedy. The protagonist attempts his best given the circumstances, but at some point of time makes an incorrect decision, and the protagonist's family has to pay as heavy a price for that incorrect decision as the protagonist himself as penance for not being able to keep the protagonist in check. Story-wise, Padmé has to die because otherwise it would validate the monstrosities Anakin committed in her name. One could even argue that the characters in the GFFA may feel the same sense of responsibility as the characters in Greek tragedies and the same need for this kind of penance (although it's unclear whether or not Padmé knew the details behind what caused Anakin to turn to the dark side).
     
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  22. Elder74

    Elder74 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2020
    in that case he need to be physically there just like in TROS. And he wasn't there when padme died.