ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Rey had the strength of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Leia and the many spirits they'd brought to her on Exegol to fight the Emperor in that moment. She was not alone.

 

That all reduces the scope of the jedi and the sith and fate and destiny and everything into some big event where all are involved? So suddenly reys fate or destiny or her choices don't matter. Where were all the jedi the last time, with Luke? They weren't there because it was his choice, his destiny, his life etc.

All the sith? The sith are just people who use the force for selfish gains. How exactly can all the sith be in that one person. It's silly. The sith always want the ultimate power. Anakin wanted the ultimate power. That's the dumbest part of it, that it turns the sith, selfless, and makes the jedi appear to want more and more.

 

I actually like all of the Sith and all of the Jedi being embodied in the two characters at the end because if anything it gives it a vibe of the spirit and essence of everyone in entire series being involved in the climax, which is what it was probably intended to convey.

 

Luke didn't stand up to Palpatine. He threw his sword away and got zapped. Vader saved him. Also I'm not so sure Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't doing something to cloud the Emperor being able to foresee Luke was on Endor and how the confrontation with Vader went.

That's what Palpatine said in the movie. Unless you think it was all a ruse to get Rey and Kylo together so he could sap their power to come back.

The idea that the parasitic spirits of the Sith live in the sith master is interesting. It's not the silliest thing in Star Wars. And it doesn't make the Sith selfless. The horde of the Sith ID inside the Sith Master isn't donating the life of the master to be selfless. It wants a more powerful host. It is discarding the current host for an upgrade. It is taking that new person. It's ravenous selfish hunger on the part of the Sith. My guess is that current Sith Master is in charge of this toxic chorus of spirits inside it, but the master is still the servant to this power. And that power will someday end the master. The way the master is always looking for a stronger apprentice, so is the Sith possesion always looking for a better host. When the better host is found the old master becomes just another voice in the possessing Sith specter.

 

Those were still Luke's choices. So where were all the jedi, then?

The sith as a parasite eliminates the choice.

So if it's a parasite theres more than one and they leech on to the strongest person.......................which is a dead person? Bwaaahahhhh hahahahhahahahahahahah . ....oh cmon lol. I kid but seriously that just doesn't add up.

That final scene even goes back on that when palpatine realizes about the supposed diad. All of a sudden it's just him, as the supreme emperor instead of passing it to the empress..........but then when it comes down to it he's all the sith? Lol nope.

 

Palpatine wanted Rey to replace him in the ritual because he would still survive in some form as all the Sith in her (his current form is...not pretty). his main goal is power and continuing to survive. Until he sucked out the life force from the Dyad and now he's back to being "The one true Emperor" and doesn't really need them anymore, he even tosses Ben Solo in a freakin' pit for all he cares and tries to blast Rey away into nothingness. So Rey killing him was one of his various backup survival plans. Until he got all spiffy again and t'hell with these two.

 

The Force drain scene and subsequent deployment of battle meditation lightning (that's what I call it anyway) is his last desperate attempt to stop the attack. It's a fightening moment, but when you rewatch, he is clearly trying to reassure his audience of true believers. The fleet is already damaged with many ships falling down and smoking and disabled. His Final Order is indeed scary and this final moment of it is scary too, but he has been operating from a position of weekness for a whole generation by this point (although it isn't clear when he "woke up" from his death in Episode 6) however I don't think the force drain was his actual plan. It's not a crazy theory, but I think he originally wanted Kylo Ren to kill Rey. His backup plan was to have her defeat him and find her way to Exegol for the ritual. His plan C is what we actually saw, with her arriving on Exegol and Ben Solo at large. He's impatient to have the ritual take place because Ben Solo could arrive to back her up, which he does. But then he goes in for plan D, which in my opinion wasn't ever really a plan. He just seized an unexpected opportunity.

In my view the original broadcast was intended to draw Kylo Ren to Exegol, so he could create a formal link to the First Order and offer to make Kylo Ren into a Sith Apprentice (or alternatively a vessel by way of the sacrifice ritual, but this is an open question for me)

 

Oh, do you mean where is the choice in killing the Sith Lord and not becoming one? We know in earlier drafts of Return of the Jedi, Yoda and Obi-Wan were there to assist Luke at the end. As the story was refined there was better drama if it was just Luke alone against Vader and the Emperor. Since Vader sacrifices himself to save Luke, Luke doesn't need anyone else to save him.

But I still think there is a chance Yoda and Obi-Wan are running interference to prevent Palpatine from seeing the future in that moment and prevent Palpatine from sensing Vader's change of heart.

The Jedi or Force user still makes the choice to kill the Sith. So there is the choice. It's just they might not understand taking that action will result in their possession. The biggest question this raises is what would have happened to Mace Windu if Palpatine let him kill him. (Then again, the Sith Spector wouldn't want Mace Windu if Palpatine is more powerful.)

I think there is one parasite spirit that is made up of all the past Sith Lords since this power was discovered. It's hard to describe and I would imagine is very overwhelming except for the strongest of Force users. Even a dead Palpatine is more powerful than most beings in the galaxy. The Sith spirit didn't want to be in Palpatine but it also needs a worthy successor to move on. Why did Palpatine keep Vader around after he is put in the suit? Because even at 1/2 his previous potential Darth Vader is still the second most powerful being in the galaxy. At one time Vader could have become the most powerful and replaced Palpatine. Even after that is no longer in the cards, Palpatine will keep Vader around until a better apprentice shows up.

Also Palpatine managed to drag himself to Exegol after dying. He might not be strong enough to leave again. In his weakened state he's vulnerable to Luke Skywalker. Which is another reason to hideout and lay low until the time is right.

That's what the movie says. Notice as soon as Palpatine is back up to max power, the parasitic Sith Spirit no longer wants to embody Rey or Ben Solo. Palpatine is back to being the strongest and most desirable host. Personally I wish we found out the spirit thing was a ruse, and Palpatine's plan all along was to create a dyad in the Force to revive himself. But the movie doesn't quit show that. But Palpatine and I guess the Sith Spector flip plans instantly when they see power.

I'm not sure how much the Death Star Destroyers even matter to Palpatine at that point. The reason he lured the attack to Exegol was for the Sith to return. He needed bait make Rey kill him. He's showing off in a way with the lightening. Is it desperation or a statement of power? Who needs the Star Destroyers when Palpatine can take down an enemy attack with his own hands.

I'm still not clear what Palpatine's end plan was for Kylo Ren and Rey. Appareantly Occi was not tasked with killing Rey but bringing her to Palpatine on Exegol. At the same time he tasked Ben Solo with killing Rey. Was this a test to find who was more powerful? Who was more worthy?

 

I thought we were discussing the films? Didn't you say just a moment ago that's what matters? (Which I agree on)

So since the dark side parasites are always there, there can never be balance?

So the Sith cult control the parasites like how Kahn has those sand creatures in the fish tanks in Star Trek The Wrath of Kahn?

 

Exactly. That's why Luke only needed Vader to save him in the movie for better drama.

Not if Rey actually killed the Sith Spector along with Darth Sidious. In that case the Sith finally are removed and balance is restored. Does that mean there will be balance forever? No.

The cult doesn't control the Sith Spector. It worships and follows it as their god. It's really nothing like the Wrath of Kahn. It's more like the soul of the devil merges with the Sith Master's soul. In a way I'm still wrapping my head around this concept. Is this what Star Wars was hitting at all along for Darth Sidous? He does have that weird line to Yoda that's like "Darth Vader will be stronger than either of us." Is this alluding to Anakin taking on the Sith Specter?

Watching the movie I didn't think the Sith Cultist were literally there. I thought the Sith Cult might be the physical embodiment of the Sith Spector and all the former Sith Lord who embody it. We hear a similar chant to what accompanies Darth Maul.

 

He says Anakin will be stronger because once fully trained and armed with experience and skills, his enormous Force potential (reflected in his unreadably high midichlorian count) means he will be the most powerful being on either side of the Force. The Emperor thinks he will still be able to control Vader at that point, I suppose, or he figures that as long as he's corrupted him to the dark side at any rate even if he gets whacked, the Sith will win. I don't think Sidious is 100% selfinh, only "nearly." That is, he really is devoted to the Sith even for posterity. However if he can attain immortality, then he himself could rule forever...

 

That has nothing to do with what I said and is irrelevant. The point is that its Luke's own personal journey with the force.

So nows theres a physical discrepancy between the light and dark and personal choice does not matter?

That takes out the theme of people corrupting themselves. It is making the force negative and not the users actions. The force is the force, how it is utilized dictates where it lies on any balance spectrum. Luke realizes there is a balance of emotions within jedi, like quigon and anakin, which would mean they just treat dark side parasites like pets--give it a treat and it won't take over?

 

I agree. However if Sidious is of two minds - Palpatine and all the Sith - that might all the Sith Chorus speaking. Excited to posses the most powerful being on either side of the Force.

 

Or is it Vader's jounrey? Luke surrenders to the situation and then Vader completes his journey.

How so?

That takes out the theme of people corrupting themselves. It is making the force negative and not the users actions. The force is the force, how it is utilized dictates where it lies on any balance spectrum. Luke realizes there is a balance of emotions within jedi, like quigon and anakin, which would mean they just treat dark side parasites like pets--give it a treat and it won't take over?

Then the spirit wouldn't get into someone like Qui-Gon. It's got a choice. It's picking who it will master.

Remember the Force obeys commands while also controlling actions. The people are still corrupting themselves, it's just that Palpatine took on epic new level of corruption by the time he killed his master. All the things we saw Anakin do to become Darth Vader were his own choice. His own actions.

 

The Sith cultists were really there. Palpatine had assembled them to witness and perhaps participate in the sacrifice ritual.

 

They really set the mood.

 

It was great how I thought it was a callback in the soundtrack, another link between Rey and Darth Maul, but it was actually a chorus of Sith acolytes who were physically present! That was a really wild twist!

 

Which again blurs the line between what the Sith acolytes really are. Is what we see factual or metaphoric? We've seen people and things appear through the Force in Star Wars before. Do they physically embody the the strength of the Sith? Is that was is standing behind and backing up the actions of Darth Maul. Why are all of them killed when Palpatine is slain?

 

They are really there, they do the footwork of the Sith cult. They are the people of whom Sith Lords are Lords.

As for the collapsing temple and the flight of the acolytes, it is clear that Sidious' dark side power helps to hold the temple up and his explosive death caused the collapse. This is a visual metaphor, but it literally happens because the whole edifice is upheld by the Dark Side of the Force. I mean, that is the take that makes sense to me. I doubt Palpatine had a built-in kill switch or anything like that.

 

Well have to agree to disagree or save the talk for the next time it arises.

But moving on like I said before the first impression I got was that these people around palpatine and rey were more visual representations of how luke got a feeling of darkness in the cave. I think that's what jj was eluding to.

 

I don't think that fits the way Star Wars tells stories visually. The clearest and if I may say so the obvious interpretation is that he was announcing the sacrifice to an actual living audience present in the stadium. He also gestures to them when he rejuvinates himself by hijacking the dyad synergy.

 

Who is this Sith Specter?

 

I think it's the term some people here have coined for the agglomeration of past Dark Lords of the Sith who supposedly reside in the mind of Darth Sidious and collectively empower and guide him with the wisdom of Sith past. Of course, some fans either doubt the veractity of this account because they think he is lying and others doubt it because they think he's being metaphorical and grandiose. I'm on the fence.

 

I have to agree to agree with you on this. My first impression is the same. I couldn't of said it better "visual representation of how luke got a feeling of darkness in the cave." It's like the Vader illusion or Rey in the mirror. This is the power a Sith Lord feels. The king with gallery full of rabid fanatic followers. It goes back to the same chanting heard with Darth Maul. This is visually the sort of confidence a Sith Lord has during great moments.

This is probably the audience Palpatine was address in his mind when declaring the First Galactic Empire.

Even the way the Death Star Destroyers crash after the Emperor is killed has a dreamlike quality to it. It looks like they are lighter than air as they fall and look to be turning to dust as much as burning up and breaking apart.

That's right and sums up how I feel about it. What do you think of the term Sith Spector? Sith Legacy? The Sith Lord Horde? Sith Shadow. Sith Spector has a nice ring to it. That would be a term to describe the collective of past Sith Lords residing in the current Sith Master.

I don't know if I believe it either. I'm still wrapping my head around it and looking for clues in the six saga films that point to Palpatine being possed. There is some evidence. The way his voice and mannerisiums change when becoming Darth Sidious. The way something dark and sinister shows through his personality like hungry lust when Anakin and Luke think of cutting him down. Also the fearsome animal like way Darth Sidous fights with a lightsaber. Are these glimpses of the powers and abilities of pervious Sith lords shining through?

I sort of wish Palpatine was lying and all of this was a setup to get Rey and Ben Solo there together and vampire their power. Rey was created by Palpatine to make a Dyad with the offspring of the Chosen One. Then the pair had to do certain things to activate or aline their power / connection so Palpatine could use it.

He thought it would be harder to flip Ben Solo to the Dark Side, and once he turned Rey would naturally go that way. Leia messes up his plans when both Rey and Ben Solo turn to the light. The last step would Rey refusing to strike him down. After that if Ben and Rey stand up to Palpatine in that moment he can sap their powers to bring himself back.

The movies seems to clearing say Palpatine is weakened and the Sith Spector know it's time to move on to a new host body as the Sith Master. It's not clear if Palpatine had a favorite between Rey and Ben Solo. Was his hope one of them would kill the other on the Death Star? And whoever won would be the winner? Or did he really want Rey all along?

 

I don’t think Palpatine is possessed by Sith spirits. I think he possesses them and Rey would have possessed him.

However, I don’t think he possessed Snoke, only controlled him.