ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

I think it's more interesting to imagine him getting a new link to the past Sith Lords, but the dialogue seems to support the idea that he acquired all this by killing his own master, generally presumed to be Darth Plagueis. In fairness to this new idea, or new revelation if you will, Sidious is in a very different position at the end of episode nine than episode three. He doesn't have any reason to keep secrets from Rey, who will only be able to report them if she survives--a contingency that inherently involves all of the sith being destroyed permanently. This wasn't the condition of the Emperor in episode three.

Getting back to how literal it might be, surely there must have been a sith master who was killed by a Jedi or died of pneumonia or something somewhere along the line. So even if the spirit transfer is real, it might not really be literally correct to say that Sidious can commune or consult literally all past masters. And he presumably couldn't consult any past Sith Lords who never made it to that rank. He can't consult Darth Maul or Darth Tyranous for instance, and obviously not Darth Vader.

 

Well, considering the context, it seems to me like Palpatine is embodying all the Sith in that specific moment and place. Because that's what is happening with Rey, too. All movie long, she has been attempting to communicate with the Jedi who had come before her. And though she may only have been trying to reach the Jedi who had gone into the Force and retained their personalities, something the Sith could not do, in Exegol she is able to reach all of them.

And this matches with what we've been told about vergences in the Force. In Mortis, Obi-Wan was able to see and speak with Qui-Gon, despite his master's having not fully learned how to retain his personality after death. But because the Force was stronger in that place, things that would not be possible elsewhere could happen there. We are told (in expanded materials) that Exegol is such a vergence. And we can tell, visually, that it is a place strong in the dark side of the Force. So I think that not only was Palpatine's resurrection only possible in that place but so was his summoning of all the Sith from the depths of the dark side.

Which means that neither Rey nor Palpatine could have continued to be linked with the dead to that degree after they left Exegol. Of course, if Palpatine was planning to rule the galaxy from Exegol, then he could have possibly summoned the Sith other times. But I think it was likely meant to be a unique conjuring, because that moment marked the final fight between the darkness and the light, and Palpatine and Rey embodied the darkness and the light for that moment only, much as the Mortis gods had done for centuries in their vergence of the Force.

 

The explanation that Exegol is a special place has some appeal for me. Not a fan of Mortis, based on what I've heard, but the concept of a special dark side place or planet works. The whole planet seems like it's dead and we only see what look like creepy ruins. There must be an ecosystem of some sort on Exegol, but we really have no idea. I like the idea that Palpatine's return and power was dependent on that place.

 

Rey is a Sith retirement community...

 

In my view he claims sympathy vote but that’s to get Amidala to take that bait. But He’d already infiltrated the Senate under the guise of Sidious by putting fear into the Trade Federation (who are a powerful entity in itself) to bully the Senate with their army . Palpatine keeps altering his plans (with the sympathy ploy) as Valorum scuppered it getting the Jedi involved. He’s made even Dooku to believe and join him after the death of Maul especially since the TF were caught.

That said the sympathy part I wager had finally formed eventually with the advent of the Rebellion. Hence Palps was certain by getting the whole good guys together to destroy everyone at Exegol and it is clear to me this all is the case when he said “end of the story of Rebellion!”.

MJ

 

I don't mind the notion that Palpatine being all the Sith and Rey being all the Jedi is contextual to their moment on Exegol. Essence transfer is an interesting quirk but throughout the series it may be a bit of a head-scratcher. I can go either way. I buy that the Sith would walk around with the merged spirits of the Sith all the live long day while with the Jedi it's a super important once in a generation type of deal.

 

Back when legends was canon, there was a scene in the Darth Plagueis novel, right at the start, right after the titular character's death, where it seems like Sidious did get in touch with the Sith of the past, as manifested in the dark side:

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

This also echoed with Vader's own anointment, in which Sidious spoke with a seemingly demonic voice. It's just food for thought, though.

 

Respectfully I think you are missing something here. Palpatine had influence in the senate already, but not enough to get himself elected chancellor. This included his political pull and his backdoor influence as Darth Sidious. The purpose of his scheme with the Trade Federation was to make himself more openly popular by making people feel sorry for Naboo. It's a sick scheme, and worthy of his characteristic wickedness.

 

I’m ok with this . That said it is Amidala who is sympathetic and caring. Not so much him believing. She’s quite unhappy with him as I can see watching the scene with her stare. And he knew she’ll head back.

Recall he declared “no civility just politics” And she knows it. “Senator this is your arena...” Palps knows her heart. But Sympathy is not in his.

Small note: Sidious later is a little surprised when he says “this is an unusual move for her. It’s too aggressive “. This is the part I’m sure he’s being truthful.

Anyway that’s my reading.

Cheers!

MJ

 

The Exegol and Palpatine stuff needs more elaboration. It’s something I’d be interested in hearing about, despite my feelings about TROS overall.

 

Palpatine: I'm the greatest strategist in the galaxy!

Revan: Hold my mask.

 

He mentions the deleted line 'more than a clone, less than a man', (leaked by MSW months ago, I think) That sounds like 'vessel'; a new 'sameness' to be filled with an old 'uniqueness'.

He also mentions age; Palpatine needed Rey because of her youth. Apparently, that vessel was a copy of the latest version of the orginal down to his physical age. It was not sustainable. 'Blood' was maybe another requirement, hence Rey Palpatine - and Palpatine's 'it is in your blood, our blood'.

It's also interesting that, in McDiarmid's mind, the 'more than a clone, less than a man' explained Snoke(s) in those tanks. Serkis said Snoke was 200 years old; Palpatine says 'I made Snoke'. Snoke says to Ben Solo 'I wasn't born Snoke, I became Snoke'. Almost sounds like Snoke having amnesia and then gradually recovering his 200 year old true self and becoming who he once was (Snoke) in a vessel, a vessel alredy decrepit (=the latest version of him). Maybe he 'died before', just like Palpatine, and that was a part of Palpatine's plan. Only, Snoke didn't know.

 

So, the leaked dialogue that was cut comprises this:

KYLO REN: You're a clone.
PALPATINE: More than a clone, less than a man.

 

“I didn’t know Skywalker was so...wise. After the Rebels are gone, we shall go to his planet and obliterate the entire island”

What if it’s that Snoke didn’t know because Palps didn’t either till Snoke took a type of “life force “ from Rey to see inside her mind after her experience with training from Luke in Ahch-To. I mean she could resist Kylo’s mind probe but failed with Snoke’s / Palps ability despite their handicap ie Snoke’s cloned body/Palps rigged to the life support in Exegol.

Hence Kylo/Ben saying “I killed Snoke I’ll kill you “ As in the TLJ sequence of events where Kylo kills Snoke shortly after. That’s why Palps says “I made Snoke”.

Not to forget Palps confidently “...story of Rebellion!” This is relation with “after the Rebels are gone “ . An anachronistic attitude that belonged to days of the previous Rebellion 30 plus years before.

Perhaps?

MJ

 

yah to be fair they straight up say "cloning!" so that is in the film, anyway Palpatine is definitely weakened in any versions of the movie which would probably indicate why he's so keen on essence transfer and probably why is plan seems to be more hard hitting mass destruction than even by his standards, dude's on a ticking clock!

 

There is a problem about Rey's identity because dialogue in Rise of Skywalker indicates that the phantom emperor was looking for her on Jakku specifically. So assuming Snoke was in on the fact that his master was looking for this kid, he would definitely have a strong suspicion Rey was the same person. Rise of Skywalker indicates (perhaps inaccurately, this being a girl's memory from early childhood) that her parents called her by the name Rey. This doesn't actually make me feel the revelation is incompatible, it just means there is a narrowing of possible interpretations. We have to ask--how often did Palpatine communicate with Snoke? Did Snoke know that he was serving a hidden overlord? The movies don't actually tell us these things, so we have some people thinking that Palpatine's spirit was living in Snoke's body up until the end of The Last Jedi. That theory elicits a hard "no" from me, but fans do get to speculate.

 

I think sometime before Rey's birth, Palpatine had already returned and we living the robo-arm life on Exegol (and sometimes using Snoke as an avatar) but the whole thing with Ochi and Rey's parents he took a personal interest in it so he wouldn't have used Snoke for that job.

I forgot to mention I kind of love how the crawl calls him "The phantom Emperor" because it's a reference to his broadcast but also I feel confirmation / shout out to the Episode 1 title "Phantom Menace" stating that (one of) the Phantom Menace that we saw in that movie was Palpatine himself.

 

I don't think he "possessed" Snoke. What I think is that he let Snoke pretty much do his own thing while he focused on building a thousand new phantom energy planet-dusting star destroyers and ruling his Sith Eternal minions. He probably had a few loyal servants like Ochi he could count on (sort of) but we have to figure his resources were very limited, apart from his hold on loyalists like Pryde and the First Order's implicit loyalty when he would one day reveal himself. My take is that he had assurances against a coup by Snoke because he used cloning to create him, but only let Snoke in on a few of the basics regarding his plan to return.

 

As I’m not in the Palps spirit in Snoke camp, my view is that Snoke only has certain knowledge. Like the clones in AOTC only what is “programmed “ is inputed. Plus not from the embryonic stage but as adult with dark powers/ ability. Snoke basically has knowledge of the Skywalker lineage. Palps changed his plans focusing on Ben rather than Rey (who’s not traceable as Palpatines son who has no affinity for his wicked father was able to hide her) hence the advent of Snoke. Snoke is indeed a smokescreen all along for Palps to get Ben completely to the Darkside.

It is only when Snoke is killed Palps is attuned to the fact Rey has emerged. He sets his sights on both Rey and Ben knowing now their affinity to each other.

MJ

 

I like this. Snoke may have even been a real person at one time. Palpatine cloned him and even put some version of his memories back into his brain. I like that it's similar to Order 66. Snoke doesn't even know he's Palpatine's windup puppet. I can see Palpatine pulling the strings, but not inhabitting the mind of Snoke. Still they two do use some of the same wording in similar situations. That could be part of Snoke's programming.

Snoke might not even know he's a pupper let alone that Palpatine is still lurking. It's perfect cover. Then Palpatine can toil away in secrecy with Snoke in the open providing cover.

Did Palpatine really want to capture Rey or did he change his plans. Killing her parents with dagger seemed to purposely create an artifact to activate Rey's rage later.

 

I can go either way but I am currently on that Palpatine could take control of Snoke at times, I mean if he's every voice inside Ben's head he naturally has to know what Snoke has done and said to Ben in their in-person chit-chats, the Kylo Ren Ages of Resistance comic pretty much explicitly has Snoke as a mouthpiece for Palpatine, and Snoke's whole presentation is very much like how Palpatine presented himself. But also I feel sometimes Snoke could act independently, as in trying explicitly to kill Rey seems like a big no no in Palpatine's grand scheme.

 

Serkis's "200 years old" comment is interesting. The real world answer is probably just the mundane one; Snoke being a Palpatine creation wasn't planned. And I'm ok with that

I suppose it's possible that Snoke's body is physically 200 years old?

As for the status of Snoke relative to Palpatine himself, the way I like to interpret it is that Snoke is some kind of homonculus (which could also apply to Palpatine's reborn body too, maybe?)
That is, not a clone, but just an entirely newly created body through Sith sorcery, which obviously turned out pretty ****** up. I also don't think Palpatine was directly controlling Snoke, but probably gave him some kind of independent directives. "Programming" him, in a sense

 

I don't see how that's contradictory really.

There was an original guy, he was 200 years old. Palpatine cloned him sometime after Jedi, or even simply the cloning took place as recently as post-TLJ with the original guy's death.

"Created Snoke" is metaphorical, as in "created" his position, his influence, his title, his effect on the galaxy. The guy had mega force potential but hadn't been honed/taught/provided direction before meeting Palpatine.

Bing bang boom, adds up.

 

Snoke says he can't be betrayed. He has a different explanation but maybe he knows that death is not necessarily permanent for him. We see copies of his body at the same stage of injury in Palpatine's cloning tank (?) ready for deployment or under development to appear and say "See, you cannot kill me..." There is a question of whether spirit transfer takes place, and if so who the original Snoke might have been.