ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Iron Lord wrote this in another thread. It would be of interest to talk about here.

 

"Do not fear their feeble attack, my faithful. Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!" is probably the best Palpatine line in the movie. It's pretty peak Sheev

 

Reminds me of AOTC when Palps very innocuous ( The "phantom emperor" achieves emergency powers under the noses of the Jedi. The Jedi could never have envisioned a later peak Palpatine. " The power you give me I will lay down when this crisis has abated".

But This time (TROS) Palps undenyingly bathing in his domination "the One True Emperor!"

MJ

 

Yeah, Palpatine really embodied the threat of the Sith to the maximum in TROS: His creepy, desolate throneworld; his legions of cultish followers; the dark science of Exegol; his insanely large secret fleet. And to top it off is the Emperor himself, clinging to life unnaturally, later resurrected vampirically into a grand vision of Sith domination. Seeing him in all his might was very rewarding.

In slightly related news, concept artist Bob Cheshire added a few additional pieces of TROS art to his website, including two new concept pieces of the resurrected Emperor Palpatine:

 

Palpatine was weak if you think about it:

First Order already dead.

Kylo turn good.

People been going on about their business like he doesnt exist.

Everyone surprised he exists.

He is on a machine on a planet where the ships cant leave anyways.

Never a threat never a bother.

Palpatine largely ignored from the start.

Kylo was always the bigger threat.

Rey chooses Kylo Ren and she becomes the new shmi but ways of our glorious Ben Solo aka Rey cant explain her up coming birth.

Brilliant.

 

It's the Palpatine saga, baby! Them Skywalkers are just tagging along, with the ultimate indignity that the Palpatine bloodline ends with his ancestor sheds her glorious Palpatine family name for Skywalkers

 

'Kill me and my spirit will pass into you'.

Was that true for Kylo too? Kylo had other plans for Rey Palpatine: but just before Leia called him, Rey had lost the duel, and Kylo was about to act against his own plan out of anger, just like he had in Pasaana when he had tried to run over Rey with his ship.

Palpatine says to Pryde: 'the princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan'. So, he wanted Kylo to kill Rey.

In fact, he did not care who killed who. 'I never wanted you dead' was a lie. But no one was killed.

So, what we see in TROS is Palpatine improvising after his plan failed: using 'blood' and 'family' against Rey and, when that didn't work, using her 'new family' (only you can save them, you brought them here, etc) But I think his original intention was for Rey to kill Kylo or vice versa.

Now, what if Kylo had killed Rey and then had gone to Exegol? Palpatine had tempted him with the sith fleet. A new empire. But, again, maybe his plan was to be killed by the survivor of that duel (Rey or Kylo)

And, in that scenario -Kylo having killed Rey-, he would have tempted Kylo in another way, I guess.

'She's not who you think she is' was maybe true about Rey Palpatine too. 'It seems, in your anger, you killed her' comes to mind. Maybe someone from the past - that 'she's gone' to Han was about Leia but, maybe, not only about her. (Luke's 'she' in 'I can't be what she needs me to be' refers to both Rey and Leia, who share the same journey)

Also, a retcon: the possession would explain Vader's attitude here, and him not killing the emperor.

 

It seems he always had his sights set on Rey, as he must believe her to be Kylo's superior in some fashion. If he wanted to take Kylo's body, then why wouldn't he have simply goaded Kylo into striking him down when they first meet on Exegol?

 

I wish Palpatine's plan all along was to stoke the Dyad in the Force and use it to rejuvenate himself. And in that scenario, his plan would be for Kylo to turn Rey to the Dark Side. From there they would go together to kill Palpatine as a team. Their being alined like that would full activate the power of the Dyad and Palpatine could than use it.

Instead Leia interrupted his plan. Ben turned to the light and now Palpatine had to lure them their a different way.

But as far as the movie goes, Palpatine wanted the strongest of the two. Whoever killed the other is the one he wanted. But if he had to pick a favorite, it's probably Rey. Only because Palpatine is bent on revenge. For all his grand plans he still takes time to personally get back at all those who defeated in him Return of the Jedi. And beating the Original Trilogy heroes, turning the Grandson of Anakin to the Dark Side, and then discarding him would be the most satisfying revenge for the twisted Palpatine.

 

I suspect that, had Kylo killed Rey and gone to Exegol, Palpatine would have explained Kylo a couple of things about Rey. 'She's not who you think she is' being true about Rey Palpatine too.
In other words, Palpatine would have told Kylo about Rey's origins, and put those origins in relation to Kylo's past. That would have made Kylo to kill him in anger, and Kylo would have been possessed:

Palpatine didn't tell Kylo about the possession thing.

 

The line "She's not who you think she is" just means Kylo is unaware of her true lineage.

 

Yah I agree. Kylo saw into her mind and saw the nobody junk traders who sold her off for drinking money that she thought they were. Palpatine fills him in on the rest. As Kylo says "I never lied to you." And later "I'll come show you .. You're a Palpatine."

 

I can grant you this. But let me be a bit meta, the “stand together die together!” , making both Rey and Ben crash on their knees frozen simultaneously rendering them helpless is very GL.

Carry on...

MJ

 

I also think when Kylo said "you are nothing" that is Palpatine's cruelty coming out, but the Ben in Kylo disagrees "but not to me" .Some truth and lies all mingling in the heart. Thanks to Palpatine.

MJ

 

I'm wondering if you even needed to be a Sith Lord for the possession thing to work. It's like a trick or double cross. You legitimately kill the Sith Lord only be be possessed by a horde of dead Sith Lord spirits. Maybe anyone with the skill the to kill the Sith Master would have been posses. Say Yoda won his fight with Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith. Maybe opening himself up to the dark side enough to kill the Sith Master would also open Yoda up enough to be possessed. It's a no win situation.

And the Sith Lord wouldn't let themself be killed. Not just anyone is strong enough to be possessed. Someone without the Force wouldn't work. And Sith Spirits never want a down grade. So it's always a strong better candidate who wins. So it's a real fight.

 

That would be an interesting new dimension to the Sith, and what we learn from the movies does technically support this interpretation. Perhaps that is what they are leaning toward, though I don't especially like it. Mainly because it makes the survival of the Sith almost inevitable, unless they are killed the right way. This makes them seem almost like vampiric creatures.

And although they are powerful, and monstrous, I think part of the appeal of the Sith as villains is that they are born out of corruption. The horror of the Sith is that any soul could be corrupted, potentially, into a monster like them. So when you turn the Sith Master into this force of almost automatic corruption, it takes away from that. Legends had a similar issue with the dark-side entity Abeloth, who somewhat cheapened the idea of falling to the dark side.

Besides that, this dimension would change the precise nature of the Rule of Two, by changing it into what is essentially a body-hop scheme. That's simply not too appealing for me, and I think it's less interesting than Lucas's original purpose for it. That purpose being that the Rule of Two was simply the reality of the Sith, the only way they could exist. If there were more than two of them, they would kill each other off. And two was all there needed to be to conquer a galaxy.

 

I think you can infer that the ritual that Palpatine is doing with Rey is unique and different. Like I don't think that Darth Plagueis put on his sleeping cap and then suddenly woke up on Exegol surrounded by Sith cultists going all hissing and rah-tah-mah.

 

TROS VD:

Rian Johnson:

Kylo did not know; Snoke did not know. Palpatine did.

The TLJ training (cunning instead of attack) prepared Kylo for being manipulated into killing Rey (attack instead of cunning) in TROS. That's the path Kylo walks between his 'I have other plans' to Rey

that is, 'cunning'; and yet he almost killed her during the duel:

Palpatine expected this to happen: he knew Kylo would behave cunningly, but also that he would yield to anger when the moment came. Leia intervened when Kylo was about to strike Rey.

And then it's Palpatine the one who talks (to Pryde) about his plan being disrupted. What we see is TROS, from that moment on, is Palpatine's plan B: luring Rey's new family and cornering Rey into making a choice, much like Palpatine using Luke's 'friends' against him in the ROTJ throne room.

Again, this had to do with Leia's 'foolish act'. Palpatine 'lost' Ben Solo. But, what if Palpatine's original plan had worked?
a)The jedi (Rey) would have been eliminated, and
b)Kylo would have gone to Exegol.
Not Kylo's original plan, but he had done what Palpatine had asked him to do...so the sith fleet was his, right?

There's a ROTJ line for this. 'Young fool. Only now at the end do you understand'

I think Palpatine knew something about Rey that would have twisted his initial 'she's not who you think she is'. Meaning, Rey Palpatine was a lie. Kylo would have been close to the truth since the beginning. The dyad, of which Palpatine knew nothing about.

And that means Rey Skywalker, or at least family of some sort (Kylo dies saying Rey's name, or his name for her anyway, in the DoTF script: Rey Solana)

So, maybe Rey was once lost, and then found, and then lost in TROS: 'in your anger, you killed her'. Kylo killing Palpatine in anger would have been the outcome, and so would have been Kylo being subsequently possessed. Rey is told about the possession in the film, but Kylo is not. That doesn't look like a coincidence.

Palpatine had promised Kylo a new empire, with Kylo as the emperor: and he was lying to him, just like he lied in TROS to Rey (his plan B) when he talked about empress Palpatine.

 

That makes zero sense for Snokes purpose to be that of making Kylo Ren a master.

So, the Sith cultists can CREATE ultra powerful force users more powerful than any other in existence and the purpose is to train a less powerful person to become more powerful than a creature who is already more powerful than any other AND CAN BE DUPLICATED *A-N-D* BE CONTROLLED FROM A DISTANCE?!

 

I like to think all of that still holds true about the Sith, it's just that on top of that is a failsafe. It's the truly evil twist on what they are. This power is what revolutionized the Sith. It raised their abilities a step above what the Jedi could do. It's not until the Jedi can become one with The Force as spirits that their powers even out.

I think Yoda's lesson in seasons 6 of the Clone Wars is that even he is corruptible. Everyone has a side that can be turned to evil. Being possessed by the Sith Souls doesn't make someone evil, it's that they already opened themselves to the Dark Side and the Sith Souls can exploit that.

The Rule of Two is a bit of a false promise even on screen. The two Sith Lord are using each other. The Apprentice wants to learn as much as possible and then kill the Master. The Master is using the apprentice for a specific purpose and doesn't really see the Apprentice as their successor. The master will dump the apprentice as soon as they're no longer useful or a better apprentice comes along.

Even then the Rule of Two isn't exactly a body hopping scheme. I think the majority personality of the Sith Master is the current living Sith Lord. That Sith Lord does not want to give up that power. It's only because of a mistake or failing that they will ever be replaced. That or someone truly more powerful comes along. (Which in it's own way is a failing on the part of the Sith Master for not being stronger.)

That's my problem with Palpatine wanting Rey to kill him and Palpatine willing letting himself be killed. I don't see him giving up his power that easily. There must be a trick. Personally I wish Palpatine knew about the Dyad and that's what he's waiting for. It was all a ruse to get Ben Solo and Rey there together alined in the Force. The other option would be Palpatine is the Sith Lord who took this soul thing to the next level and can actual body-hop. If Rey killed him then Palpatine would actually take over Rey. It would be Darth Sidious in Rey's body. I also don't like the body hoping idea nearly as much.

I think Snoke is half an illusion. He's litterally a puppet for Palpatine. For the Sith plan to work Palpatine needs the real deal. Someone who is powerful in the Force.

 

From the September issue of Star Wars Insider, found in Wookiepedia:

 

That's for two months from now? I'd pick that magazine up just for the images. That's a great portrait of the Palpatine who survived.

I swear it's like Palpatine is a mishmash of parts. Part machine. Part clone. Part original Darth Sidious.

Like the hands are the hands of the orignal Palaptine. The face is this strange clone that is like half baked or never got out of the larva stage. It's blind. It's messed up. I'm not sure Palpatine even has legs or that his left arm directly attaches to his torso. But the way his face looks - so pale and almost like he'd be mushy or his bones are soft, looks different than the hands.

Could Palpatine's clone be aging at an accelerated rate like the Clone Army? While the body is 30 some years old, it looks like's in its 70s.

We're so close to knowing Palpatine's orignal plan while at the same time not knowing. Did he just want Rey and Kylo to fight until one killed the other? Then the stronger would be his heir?

The way Palpatine says "She's not who you think she is." It's like he's set setting up Kylo Ren. It's bait. Palpatine is all but asking him to team up with Rey.

I still wish / hope Palpatine did know about the Dyad. (If only the movie made that 100% clear.) Would make sense if that was his big plan all along. Palpatine somehow created Rey through a mix of natural biology, science, the Force, and dark side magic. Palpatine thought turning her to the dark side would be easy. So he put all the effort into turning Ben Solo bad. Doing that also undid the success of Anakin and the Original Trilogy Heroes. For such a huge mastermind of evil Palpatine can be, he is also petty in his revenge on a very basic level. No one gets the better of him in the end.

With Leia's foolish act, what if Palpatine's original plan was.

a) Set a ticking clock for a galaxy wide invasion.
b) Promise Kylo the Final Order Fleet in exchange for killing Rey. But give Kylo enough info so he he tries to team up with Rey.
c) Have Kylo pursue Rey pushing her further and further towards the Dark Side. And finally Rey will give in and join Kylo Ren.
d) Alined in the dark side as a team Kylo Ren and Rey would go to Exegol and together assassinate Palpatine.
e) Alined like this in the Force would maximize the power of the Dyad and Palpatine could rejuvenate himself from that power.

 

@Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid, I think someone did mention somewhere in this thread that in one of the post-TROS interviews, or possibly in the DVD commentary, screenwriter Chris Terrio did say something along the lines that Palpatine knew about the dyad from the beginning and that his planned revolved around making it happen. But it seemed more like a mistake on his part, possibly thinking of a previous version of the script, because in the movie he is definitely surprised. Or at least he appears to be, but Palpatine is a liar, so I guess one could potentially still argue for it.

With the final version of the movie that we got, I'm still unsure whether Palpatine would have been okay with either Kylo or Rey as his future host. If he were okay with it, then he sent Kylo off with the idea that the strongest would survive and come to him ripe for possession. But why not take of Kylo from the start of the movie? Perhaps it's unlikely Palpatine would've risked going after Rey himself, or that he would've risked her becoming aware of his possession of Kylo and fully cementing herself on the side of the light as his enemy. There's also the possibility that Palpatine simply foresaw exactly how some of the events would happen, and he expected Rey to kill Kylo and come to him in full darkness.

I don't know, this movie is still a bit confusing more than half a year later.

 

That makes a lot of sense Sauron_18.

He seems surprised to me as well. I suppose it's possible we're seeing Palpatine's physical reaction to tapping into the power of Dyad. And what seems like a surprised tone in his dialogue is more to do with the physical side effects of rejuvenation. Or Palpatine is more surprised by how the effects of the Dyad feel and not surprised by the knowledge Rey and Ben form a Dyad in the Force.

A little mystery isn't the worst thing to be left in the movie. And we know more about everyone's motives during the final of TROS than we did in 1983 with RotJ.

 

In earlier cut of the movie Palpatine did know of the dyad (he even told Kylo about it) and his plan was to lure them both to Exegol to drain their life force, that's from JediPaxis first plot leaks. This must've then been changed during reshoots.