ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

“Fanbase at large” = “big section of the online fanbase”

I thought that was clear but apparently not.

Now that I’ve made it explicit and you hopefully understand how my post was responding to your post, you can either sur-reply or ignore me at your leisure instead of assuming ill intent.

If you merely want to pick a fight, twitter and reddit are better options.

 

I don’t see this “technical mastery” in TLJ.

 

There were people here that balked at TCW when it came out because it was contradicting the EU. They stuck around for a little while to criticize TCW but then eventually left and I’ve not seen them since.

My parents saw TPM and AOTC in theaters, disliked them, and never bothered to see ROTS at all.

They loved TFA, disliked TLJ, then didn’t bother to see ROS.

I believe Filoni had an anecdote about a serviceman thanking him for TCW telling him that he had watched it since he was a kid. Filoni was taken aback by this man saying this, but then realized that when TCW came out, this guy could have been in middle school.

Jurassic Park was a huge movie. The Lost World didn’t do as great, and JP3 isn’t fondly remembered by and large. But none of that stopped Jurassic World from opening to huge numbers. And yet, despite that movie being very, very successful, over time I’ve seen the reaction to that franchise degrade to “meh.”

Opinions are an ever moving thing. There are fans that lose interest in Star Wars that will still come back for each movie because nostalgia is powerful. Then you have whole new generations of fans growing up with the PT or TCW that will look upon them far more fondly. The demographics of the fan base are constantly changing. There’s no doubt in my mind that the same thing will happen with the ST as time passes. Nostalgia and a new generation of fans will shift the opinion of it.

But I’m not sure what any of this has to do with Palpatine


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Generations come and go. The previous viewing generation has the baggage the next doesn't.

Happened with the PT. Probably will happen with the ST.

Star Wars hate has been around for 2 decades.

 

But I thought Star Wars hate was exclusive to the ST After all audiences were never divided before that point

 

The hate was always there. it was just moved over from the PT to the ST. But it was always there

I guess its easy to forget. Being a supporter of the PT, i remember the frustration and uncomfortableness hearing people rip on those movies for years. As glad as i am to see those movies now getting the respect they deserve. it just makes all the hate they got seem so superficial. Like none of it was worth it.

I never understood the hate. I was always outside of that circle. And i feel a little more validated as the PT has become more appreciated.

 

Speaking for myself. People also grow up and their tastes change.

I didn’t really become a Star Wars fan until the mid 90s. Primarily because of video game releases. I was aware of Star Wars before that and liked it, but with the N64 games, PC games, and Decipher CCG, that’s when I got to appreciate that universe’s scope and wanted to immerse myself in it.

Fast forward to TPM, I had just entered middle school and I loved it.

Fast forward to AOTC. I’m a moody kid entering high school or thereabouts. I hate TPM at this time because it’s too childish and I gravitated more towards the serious aspects of Star Wars and wanted a non kiddy grim-dark movie. AOTC was close enough. I loved it and saw it in theaters 4 times. I’ve never seen a single movie that many times in theaters before or since.

Jump to ROTS and I’m wrapping up high school, Im online engaging with other fans. I’m more cognizant of story telling, themes, etc. I dislike AOTC now and still think TPM is juvenile.

But I still loved the scope of Star Wars and still like the world building that’s going on in the EU and still appreciate the prequel era, if not the prequels themselves. I went into ROTS not expecting much, and my expectations are exceeded.

Jump to now. Im married with a toddler and older stepdaughter. I do not have the time to immerse myself in the Star Wars universe and really don’t care to do so as much. I used to be able to retain the names of characters and alien species as well as I could dinosaur names, but now they don’t stick anymore. I can’t name a single new species off the top of my head.

I can still come here and engage with other fans or watch Visions, etc due to the power of smart phones when I have breaks at work, etc. But my relationship to Star Wars has fundamentally changed.

When I introduced my stepdaughter to Star Wars she gravitated more towards the prequels. And while I did not appreciate them so much, she’s being exposed to a universe I liked and I’m going to be supportive. If she sees the prequels and likes them, it’s not like Im going to debate her about it. That kind of experience is going to inherently impact how I see the prequels too as it creates a positive experience with my stepdaughter, even though I have no interest in sitting down and watching any of those films by myself.

And honestly now that Im order, I just don’t really have passionate hate for any movie. I might post long winded responses about things I think they did wrong, but I can sit through any of these movies.

My life has gotten a lot busier as I’ve gotten older and started a family. Free time is at a premium, and I really don’t have the luxury of devoting so much mental energy to holding contempt to films that disappoint.

My opinions of these films can change wildly at different stages of my life, and they aren’t even a constant in my life. There’s been stretches where I lose interest in Star Wars all together and devote my time elsewhere, then nostalgia or a new product brings me back later.

I think eventually a lot of people are going to either age out of the hate, or if they don’t, they’ll eventually move along. What’s left is the older generation that liked the prequels and a younger generation that’s probably far more forgiving as they were exposed at a formative age. Those will be the films they’re nostalgic for in older age.

There was a time when I hated Jar Jar and young Anakin and wanted Jar Jar to be killed off. Now I’m older and while I don’t love those characters, I don’t have strong negative feelings towards them. I don’t think that retroactively makes them good characters, I just don’t care about them so much to sink into that kind of negative mentality. Especially now when I hear about what that kind of wide spread negativity has on the actors themselves.


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@TaradosGon
Thanks for sharing your SW-fan-story. Really interesting choice of words and explained in detail. Also a lot of truth I think.

 

@TaradosGon

Another former Decipher CCG collector! I still have most of my old rares ha I spent so much money on them I could never bear to toss them.

 

Since you're not sure, let's ask:

 

I could see kids liking TLJ. Probably more so than TFA. There is just so much going on in TLJ that there is alot of visual appeal all over it. Kids won't be emotionally attached enough to Luke to be bothered about that element. And often kids don't hold any expectations. so its mostly enjoying the fun ride for them. We don't get snooty until we grow up

I saw bits of the OT when i was a kid, So i knew about Vader being Lukes father, and the Emporer, lightsabers ect ect. but it didn't really appeal to me. its not untill the PT hype began that i got into it. With help of the video games. And while i can acknowledge the PT have flaws. i don't think OT is particularly flawless. so to me, there isn't a huge difference between the 2 trilogies.

I didn't dislike AOTC. and i still don't dislike AOTC. Personally i don't see alot of the issues people have. Perhaps the CGI in areas hasn't held up. but overall i enjoy it.

ROTS is actually my favorite Star Wars movie and its the one i remember having most fun watching. Still to this day.

 

ESB was the most boring film to me as a kid in the 90s. ROTJ was the best, and ANH was somewhere in the middle. I liked it, unlike ESB, but didn’t love it like ROTJ.

ANH had an exciting space battle, the Death Star, the cantina.

ROTJ had the biggest battles, Palpatine, Vader’s redemption, Ewoks, Jabba’s Palace.

As I’ve aged, my favorites have shuffled. Aliens and ships drew me to ROTJ, that’s not so important anymore. Jabba’s Palace is fun, but it’s an overly long sequence to bring Han back, when I feel like Han had no further character development of any significance. And the plan to rescue Han was convoluted.

ANH I have the most nostalgia for. Really anything from that movie, especially the music gives me warm fuzzy feelings.

ESB doesn’t inspire those kinds of warm feelings, because I didn’t like it as a kid. But I can appreciate it now as having the best narrative of the OT.

The one thing ROTJ still has going for it is the throne room scenes, which are my favorite across all the movies.

Palpatine is my favorite character. He’s fun to imitate and quote. And whereas Vader is the imposing stern villain, Palpatine just enjoys being evil and juxtaposed against Vader, it was a good choice.

If I were a kid, I would have love, love, loved RoS for bringing him back and making him creepy and making him “all the Sith.” And I’d be lying if I said I didn’t think some of that stuff is cool, despite being against the decision to bring him back.

As an adult though, I watch the prequels and see Palpatine playing the good guy, deceiving the Jedi, being a mentor to Anakin, then revealing himself to be a Sith, promising to help Anakin save Padme, then lying to him about Padme’s cause of death, causing Vader intense anguish with Palpatine enjoying the subsequent outburst.

Vader continues on as Palpatine’s apprentice for like 19-22 years before learning Palpatine lied to him. Then his love for his son finally gives him the strength and inspiration to reject the Dark Side and kill Palpatine, freeing himself from the Dark Side.

That to me is the perfect ending to Vader and by extension Palpatine.

But then they bring him back. Now instead of this resolution to Vader’s arc 20+ years in the making. They kill Palpatine to resolve the character arc of Rey who didn’t know she was a Palpatine and had no history with Palpatine and didn’t even know he still lived until just a matter of days before confronting him.

Plus when they show how Palpatine manipulated Anakin as benevolent mentor figure in the PT. And then they beautifully show Palpatine try to similarly manipulate Ezra in Rebels by using holograms to appear as his PT self and portray himself as a kindly old man.

Then we get to RoS where you have a girl whose desperately trying to find a family that loves her, and Palpatine’s answer to that is “mwah ha ha, I’m killing your friends, kill me in hatred, I’ll possess your body and you’ll be the new Empress!”

There’s no careful manipulation. All Palpatine had to do was just do the hologram thing again, convince her he’s her beloved grandfather, and fabricate some lie that the Jedi are evil, and it would be believable to think that she would eagerly eat it hook line and sinker. Better yet (IMO) instead of blatantly ripping off “I am your father,” keep her Rey Nobody, and have Palpatine lie about his relationship to her to manipulate her desire to be Rey Somebody. And meanwhile the redemption of Kylo has happened which could have lead to a final confrontation where Ben is the good guy and Rey the villain.

Instead the last Skywalker sits out the final confrontation at the bottom of a pit, while Rey gets a pep talk by some dead Jedi, giving her the power to kill Palpatine.


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From the Secrets of the Sith book

 

Oh boy.

First: How, or why, would Snoke - a clone of their creation - have natural force sensitivities? Was there an original Sith Snoke that they took? Where did that one go? How convenient - for this retcon - that Snoke is force powered, created on Exogol, and can leave Exogol, while the force-powerful cloned Emperor cannot.

Also if Snoke is a creation of their making, why would he need to manipulate him? We know that clones can obey Palpatine directly, by his command. So why wouldn't that work here? Why create Snoke, and then basically set him free to think he's his own being, and then manipulate him into doing what Palpatine secretly needs done? That's...overly complicated.

In the end, choosing to make this new unsuccessfully cloned Palpatine who needs a new host, look just like Old Palpatine, with a few more injuries, totally confuses the concept in the movie. Watching the movie, visually, it just looks like the Palpatine we've always known. Perhaps, a Palpatine who got chucked down a reactor and survived. There's nothing about this form that communicates a cloned being. Especially since the other cloned being, Snoke, looks far far worse. Instead, Palpatine should have looked like a weird little deformed creature. Something lacking the power that he wishes he had. Something even desperate and totally evil looking. Almost like the Voldemort we see in Kings Cross, in Harry Potter. The Palpatine that we got doesn't look all that weak. Injured, sure. Monsterous perhaps. But not really any less weak than Old Palpatine.

Second: Palpatine's son, wasn't a real son, eh? He was just a non-force powered clone. When was this clone created? After ROTJ? Or before. Did the 'son' have rapid aging like the other clones? And if he thought it was useless, but let it live - cuz that sounds like Palpatine - why would he think the mighty Palpatine blood rushing through its veins would one day yield greatness. This is during the OT. Palpatine isn't dead yet, and is reigning over the galaxy. If he wants a back up clone to hop into soon, fine. But why would he start thinking about Rey at this point, sooo...that's inconsistent at best. And then it says that the son shunned the Sith and his father, but how could he if he was rejected first by Palpatine. Again, inconsistent.

This book doesn't really help things, I'm afraid. And it doesn't read or sound at all like Palpatine's inner thoughts at all.

 

The book is an utter clown show. I’ve been browsing tidbits and it’s a lot of attempting to retcon not just the ST but the whole Saga’s lore.

Bizarre.

 

No more retcon then anything else really in star wars.

 

Nah. It's kind of a big one. They're making this Sith Book do all the work in making the movies make sense. And it doesn't. lol.

 

If we are talking Snoke, it's more then this book they will do the heavy work and even this book barely scratches the surface, Bad Batch and Mandalorian will tell more of the story.

 

Id argue its not that they don't make sense, its that there is information missing.

I mean technically there is nothing there that doesn't make sense. Everything can fit in lore. its just alot of the where's, why's and how's are missing.

And alot of these details have been revealed before somewhere or another. We knew ages ago that Palpatines Son was a clone of him. So really no major new information there.

 

I feel like it only brings about more questions. Not less.