ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Wait - the Rule of Two was only 1,000 years old? The same amount of time - 1,000 years - that the Sith were in hiding? The same 1,000 year time span the Jedi thought the Sith were all dead? That doesn’t make much sense either.

So does that mean Darth Bane died and the Jedi thought the Rule of Two was one and done? How do Mace and Yoda know always two their are? I wish the new canon would change that.

Agreed. It makes little workable sense unless something else is going on. That’s either both the Sith Master and Sith Apprentice are always breaking the rule of two with additional secret unofficial apprentices waiting in the wing. (But that seems a very clumsy way to preserve Sith teachings)

Or it’s really a ‘Rule of One’ enabled by the spirits of ‘all the Sith’ who survive one through essence transfer - and the rule of two is really a method to pick future host bodies.

But if the rule of two was only in place 1,000 years, how many Sith Master were there under it? Maybe three every 100 years on average? So like 30 Rule of Two Sith Lords?

Yes. Either Palpatine does know it and is withholding it from Anakin. Or the story itself was not all it seemed to begin with. Either way - part of it is a lie to manipulate Anakin.

Unlimited powrah. I guess that’s part of my problem with it. With certain knowledge of the dark side lost - the power is limited.

I thought under the Rule of Two the current Sith Master is always the most powerful Sith Master ever. Not the Sith Lord who was good enough to defeat their particular master.

The current Sith Master beats all Sith Lords who lived before them. The Sith Masters keep getting greater with each successive apprentice who overthrows their master.

It’s seems like the power would level off or go into a loop as abilities are found, lost, and need re-found.

For me the entire point of the Rule of Two is that knowledge unlocks the greatest powers of the Force. A single pair of Sith Lords with a vast understand of the Force is more powerful than huge armies of Sith and military power.

Why do the Sith fake their death and hide for 1,000 years? Could it be for the Jedi to forget and let their guard down over time. Let all the Jedi with living memory of the Sith pass away. Why wouldn’t the current Sith Lord try to take power? What incentive is their for a living Sith Master to working in the shadows and dying before seeing the next Sith Empire? Why work so an apprentice 12 generations in the future might rule the galaxy?

If there is an undying Sith evil with the knowledge of ancient lords inhabiting the current Sith Master - it would give them incentive to wait.

 

You're conflating two different things. What some Jedi or the GFFA mistakenly believe about the Sith, and what Yoda actually knows. The Sith went into hiding, there is the rule of two, which could have started weeding down well before a 1000 years ago, they seem to be extinct due to their non-presence for the last 10000 years.

Palpatine doesn't know it. He says they can discover it .... together. Why say this if he secretly knows it himself? He's not withholding anything from Anakin. He just promised Anakin the very power he wanted, as a hook, and then went sike, we have to go look for it together.

Again, Palpatine is showing off for Anakin and trying to convince him to join the dark side. Palpatine doesn't actually have unlimited power. He craves it. But doesn't have it. He just wants Anakin to think the dark side will make him powerful.

And no. The current Sith Lord is not always the most power Sith Master ever. There's nothing that says this in the lore at all. Who's stronger Vader or Palpatine? Even though Anakin was probably stronger as the Chosen One, Vader is probably weaker due to the suit. But he still chucked Ol' Palps off the ledge. And if he remained dark, he would be the new Master. It's just that simple. One might even argue that Anakin is the last Sith Master, then he dies and so too does the Order. (I'm ignoring the ST for this invented argument)

The Sith went into hiding because the Jedi forced them into hiding I suppose. Their individual plans at galactic dominance were far from obtainable, until Palpatine came to power, so they remained on the down low. Maybe they were chasing down lost knowledge. Who knows. Maybe they were waiting for the Chosen One to arrive. Again who knows.

But that 'who knows' doesn't preclude that the Rule of Two is simple and makes sense. It doesn't need possession added into it.

 

I agree that the Rule of Two doesn’t need possession to make sense and that what TROS introduces is messier than what was there. As was said, it simply means that when more than two Sith Lords are around, they will inevitably try to destroy one another.

What the EU or the new canon showed of the ancient Sith does not necessarily make sense, as others have mentioned. The sources closest to Lucas indicate that Darth Bane was part of the first generation of Sith Lords, emerging two millennia in the past, who were many and individually conquered much of the galaxy only to eventually begin infighting and destroying themselves. Darth Bane survived and decided to only train one apprentice, and made it a point to forbid training more to avoid conflict for as long as possible. But eventually either the master or the apprentice would look for someone else to rule with. The Sith Order then operated more secretly, but they were not believed extinct for another millennium. Hence why the Jedi would know of the Rule of Two, and why Sidious would call it the first and only reality of the Sith in TCW. But the first generation of Sith Lords did not last too long, despite what the EU and new canon interpreted.

The Lucas saga doesn’t need the sequels, and by and large it makes complete sense as is. That’s not in question for me. But, the sequels do exist, and they complicate things. So within that framework, and to make sense of the new stories and the ideas they’re introducing, I do think it’s interesting to talk about how they create a new context for older works.

Do the Sith still make sense in the universe of the sequels? I think they make the most sense if Sidious did not always contain all the spirits of the Sith within him, if this was something that emerged out of his resurrection in Exegol. The novelization for TROS says he did that by learning Darth Plagueis’s power, but that’s nonsensical to me, because his power to cheat death seemed completely unrelated. I think it makes more sense for Sidious and his followers to have simply found some way of their own to bring him back. Something that’s related to Exegol and its ties to the dark side, and which would have also resulted in bringing back the spirits of past Sith with him too. It’s not as clean as what Lucas envisioned, but it is what it is.

I also wanted to briefly say something about Sith training. It’s true we’ve never gotten a clear look at it, but based on what Lucas has shown or said, the Sith are essentially Jedi in training. The main thing Sidious taught Vader, and both were trying to teach Luke, was to open himself up to the dark side. There’s more to it than that, of course, actual knowledge and skills that are unique. But once a Jedi gives themselves over to the dark side, they are essentially a Sith Lord, and will be guided by the dark side and their own greed. So if Sidious has dies in his duel with Yoda in ROTS, and if Vader had survived unscathed, the Sith would still have survived. A lot would have been lost, but Vader would still be a Sith Lord. That said, Sidious had also been training Vader for more than a decade via their close relationship as Palpatine and Anakin.

 

I’d prefer if Darth Sidious contained the Sith Spirits in both the Prequels and Original Trilogy. The extra powers it imbued in him makes the character a next level villain. He’s mortal but can cheat death. Until the Jedi figure that out it’s actually not possible for them to kill him.

The solution to stopping Palpatine cheat death and ending the Sith is the Jedi Force ghosts.

 

This is unraveling very quickly.

The Sith can't cheat death. There are no Sith spirits. They are primarily selfish beings who cling to power and life. They don't become one with the Force in order to retain their identity post death because they aren't interested in doing so. They aren't interested in life after death, because they're not interested in dying. They're interested in living forever, in their own bodies, and keeping their power forever. Again, Palpatine literally speaks about this in ROTS.

Jumping into a new Sith Master, who they allow to kill them, so then have to take a back seat to, is beyond dumb and un-Sith like, and betrays the entire philosophy of the Sith. Living rent free in the new Sith Master opens up way too many questions and breaks the saga, as well as the character of Palpatine.

Just let it go.

Just let it be part of TROS, a dumb movie who's writers are not considering any of the things you are. You are doing way more work to make this fit, and it doesn't, than either JJ or Terrio did. If you really need this in the lore, just make it a new occurrence. Palpatine saying "I'm all the Sith" is just him declaring he's all the Sith now. He's the last one. There is no apprentice. He's all of it. And Rey is all that's left of the Jedi too. But because they give up power, and their life, to become one with the force, they can achieve life after death, that's the mirror to the Sith. That's it.

 

Agreed it’s unSith like. But taking a back seat is better than being dead with no seat at all. And I doubt they willing let themselves be killed. Rule of Two would still apply. But all the other Sith Spirits would love it - because it means an upgraded more powerful host.

 

You really think the Sith Mater who wants all the power and control and not die, is willing to let himself be killed, so he can take a spot on the back bench along with the 10,000 other Sith, and live inside his apprentice?

You think that's the kind of power they would desire?

Why do you assume it means upgraded more powerful host. Each successive Sith Master is not more force-powerful than the last. And Palpatine is not super powerful because he has the last millenia of Sith 'living' inside of him. He's powerful because he's got a huge number of midichlorians. Or can focus on the dark side. It's got nothing to do with possession. If it was, why didn't Palpatine have Anakin kill him right away when he crowned him Darth Vader. He knew Anakin wanted to kill him, and could sense that darkness. That's what Palpatine sense made Anakin stronger. It had nothing to do with possession, or whatever the hell TROS is conceptualizing.

And yes, if TROS is correct, they are willing to let themselves be killed. That's Palpatine's entire MO in TROS. He wants Rey to kill him so he can possess her and be strong again. So that he can leave Exogol and not remain in his weak clone body. He wants Rey to kill him, so that she can then be Emperor or something. And that is completely unlike Palpatine ever. Even with in TROS.

See? It's not even consistent within the movie, let along the franchise.

 

No. Not a chance. The Sith master wants to live forever. But they can’t live forever. Eventually they slip up and get replaced. But that Sith Lord would rather exist as a shadow on the back bench than be nothing in death.

My idea is the Sith Spirits are always pushing for the best most powerful host. If they can exist for thousands of years they aren’t limited by time anymore. They can wait for the most powerful body and mind. That way they are getting stronger over time. The living Sith Master does not want to die. The living master will fight off all challengers for as long as possible until they lose. The Sith spirits inside them only care that they are inside the most powerful. But in a way the Spirits are always hoping the current master losses because it means an upgrade. But the apprentice has to really win it. Dog eat dog. Trial by fire. Palpatine doesn’t want to give up power or his body. So he’s not letting Anakin kill him.

Agreed. It makes no sense Palpatine would let Rey kill him and give up his power.

Here’s where my idea gets extra out there and crazy. Palpatine is the greatest Sith Lord ever. He’s taken this Sith Spirit thing to a new level. Palpatine found the ability to take over his apprentice’s body if he’s killed. No sitting on the bench with the other Sith Lords when he’s killed. Palpatine displaces his apprentice and stays in the drivers seat.

Really I wish TROS just flat out said that Rey killing Palpatine was a ruse for her to reject the choice and team up with Ben Solo - both aligned on the light side of the Force. That would somehow stoke the power of dyad so Palpatine could rejuvenate himself. But the movie doesn’t say that. Or a lot of other things about Palpatine.

I get the feeling there were at least half a dozen ideas for Palpatine when writing The Rise of Skywalker but they couldn’t decide on which one to go with so kept kicking the decision down the line. And they never did make a decision - so the final movie still has the threads for all the ideas dangling with no conclusion or clear answer. It’s left open for future stories to make sense of.

 

Let’s say that Palpatine is “all of the Sith.

This creates a big issue for me outside the fact it contradicts Lucas.

It is establishing that all of the dead Sith have survived in limbo and have retained their identities to be syphoned out of the void by Sith cultists and embodied inside Palpatine. Also there’s the fact that Palpatine can launch his consciousness across the Galaxy into a new body before dying, such that his consciousness can exist outside of his body.

Now Rey comes along and kills the Palpatine. So now all of the Sith are once again just floating around waiting for another host.

Palpatine died in RotJ as far as everyone knew. Vader fulfilled his destiny and was redeemed. The Sith were finally destroyed. Luke refuses to fight and throws his weapon away lest he be tempted to take a life in anger.

Then we get RoS and realize that not only did Vader fail to kill Palpatine, but ALL of the Sith exist in him. The prophecy was not fulfilled in the slightest. And while Luke used pacifism and love towards his father to redeem him and save his soul, Rey just used her lightsaber… it was a straightforward fight. No big thematic issue, no souls to save. Just a fight with her grandfather who she’s known for a few minutes.

If they were going to establish Palpatine as the source of this great evil, and make Rey a Palpatine and have her follow in Luke’s shoes at all, then they needed to find a way to write a story in which Palpatine is redeemed somehow. If Palpatine turns, then that great evil ceases to exist.

If you kill him in fight, we’ll then what’s to stop him from coming back again? RoS just undid RotJ’s ending to the saga and replaced it with a much worse, open ended ending.


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Yeah it also means that the Sith figured out how to cheat death 1000’s of years ago. (Despite ROTS Palpatine didn’t know how) And the Jedi didn’t figure it out until Qui-gon comes along yesterday..

 

I’d hope ‘all the Sith’ survived for 1,000+ years by being contained inside the living current Sith Master. So they aren’t floating around like ghosts. They are very much trapped, teathered to the living Sith Master to continue on.

My idea is they are technically still alive. They are disembodied and weak but they didn’t return to the Force. They cling on almost as a trick or technicality within the Force.

Palpaptine is extraordinarily powerful. He was able to throw his soul and ‘all the Sith’ back to Exegol. Maybe he’s the only Sith Lord who could have done that. But the action just about killed him and left him far to weak to leave Exegol. Also Exegol is some sort of special realm in the Force. What Palpatine did worked because of the power of Exegol. It’s a trick, a cheat. And to stay alive the Force isn’t even enough on Exegol. Palpatine needs machines and technology along with dark side powers.

I’m hoping because Palpatine was killed on Exegol with the help of Jedi Force Ghost he and ‘all the Sith’ are really finally dead. Their midichlorians scattered to the smallest particles within the Cosmic Force. Their identities gone.

It’s like Pac Man got into the respawn box and ate all ghosts and they had no where to go so forever vanished.

There’s never going to be a better ending for a series than Return of the Jedi. It’s got a well earned surprise twist. It moves so fast. It’s triumphant.

The ST and TRoS try their best to undo that perfect ending. Now there is nothing stopping Palpatine returning again. The prophecy of the prequels was not true. At least not in the clear straight forward way Return of the Jedi left it.

 

It’s also worth remembering that Chris Terrio very likely read Dark Empire, where the idea of having the Emperor resurrect by transferring his spirit to a new body first appeared. In the comic book, as in the movie, this concept is introduced simply to explain how the villain could return from the dead. And both works also gave new context to the scene in ROTJ where the Emperor asks Luke to kill him. The Emperor learned how to survive physical death and inhabit new bodies.

But TROS does make it more confusing by having the Emperor say that all the Sith live in him. I’m wondering what could have been omitted from the final cut of the movie that would’ve justified including this confusing bit of lore. Was it so that the final battle could be seen as a literal conflict between all the Sith and all the Jedi? Some of the promotional interviews seem to back up that idea. But I really don’t think the scriptwriters thought out the full implications, which are being discussed here, and which do mess up Sith history as we know it.

Ideally they would’ve left it at the Emperor’s power to transfer his spirit and not complicated matters beyond that. But since they did go beyond, then for the purposes of future canon works and consistency, I just hope they have this be a unique thing that only happened for Palpatine in Exegol, and that what happens in Exegol stays in Exegol.

Of course, when I only think of Lucas’s saga, which is likely to be all that I care about as time goes on, then this discussion won’t really matter. But for now, and in order to enjoy future Star Wars works that have to contend with this for the time being, I do find this helpful.

 

Only Palpatine's spirit is meant to occupy his body. If his words are to be interpreted as literal, then he's likely referring to the Sith incarnation of the same technique Rey uses to defeat Sidious. The novelization refers to Sidious "drawing upon the power of the Sith," and the databank mentions that Sidious is a vessel for all the Sith's power, not their souls. It's still pretty vague, but I believe this rules out a spiritual gestalt.

Oh he absolutely did.

 

Chris Terrio and JJ Abrams failed so spectacularly with the TROS script that I imagine they must feel pretty embarrassed about it.

 

I doubt it. Unfortunately lol

it did win a Saturn award for “best” sci-fi movie.

 

It was the only movie they had access to on Saturn that year. It was their Simple Jack.

 

In relation to that line from ROTS where Sidious tells Yoda that Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of them, I actually do prefer to read that as having no hidden meaning. I think Sidious does genuinely value the survival of the Sith, even outside of how it serves him. Another scene in ROTS where he displays an unusual amount of empathy is when he arrives in Mustafar and places the palm of his hand on Vader’s forehead. He looks disraught, and he’s not performing for anyone here. I think these moments add a lot to the character and don’t need to be retconned as being more selfish actions on his part because he wants to use his apprentice as a host. Sidious is evil and consumed by the dark side, by selfishness and greed. He is also an archetypal devil. But I don’t think having moments of humanity takes away from that.

 

Palpatine also called Vader "my friend" in the OT. Do you think he saw Vader has his friend?

The Sith Master and Apprentice is inherently a toxic, abusive relationship. That's not to excuse Anakin at all, or even make us pity him because that's what he knowingly chose on purpose ...it's just what it is. There isn't healthy friendship or love there between the two of them. In much the same way for fans who argue that Kylo was treating Rey nicely when he tortured her. He wasn't. He was abusive and toxic and manipulative. It's not real friendship, or romance, or bonding.

I don't think Palpatine genuinely cared about Anakin, other than as his potential servant/apprentice. That's Anakin's primary worth to him. And Palpatine could easily desire an apprentice who's more powerful than anyone, even himself, and still want Anakin to obey him. He wants the Chosen One as his. Almost like a status symbol. Palpatine might view his servant/apprentice as his 'friend', just like an abusive a-hole might regard their friends the same way. But as we see, the feelings aren't mutual.

 

It absolutely does. Pure evil is pure evil and should remain pure evil. Palpatine was never concerned about Anakin as a person, even if we're using the films as our exclusive guide; if he did, he wouldn't have so exuberantly tossed him to the wolves. His only interest is in himself. The Sith Order promotes an egoistic ideology, so caring for the "preservation" of the Sith—especially in Palpatine's case—doesn't extend beyond self-aggrandizement. Once he's dead, the Sith can die along with him for all he cares; that's why he's obsessed with eternal life.

 

These things are all left open to interpretation and I think that's a good thing. We take away from it what we need to take away from it. If someone needs, for whatever reason, to view Palps as pure evil, then that's what they'll do. If they need to see a tiny sliver of hope for his soul, to know that no one is born evil or truly beyond salvation, then that's what they'll see.
Ultimately, when it comes to Palpatine's part in the story - in the Skywalker Saga specifically - what he represents is what matters the most. In that story, he is evil incarnate. That's the function he serves there. Whether there are hints of humanity or not, whether his own tragic descent into darkness is depicted elsewhere or not, that doesn't change.
The Skywalker Saga centers on the fate of the Skywalkers. To them, he is the original Devil. So in their story, that's what he'll be.

 

Young fool...Only now, at the end, do you understand...that you've been watching the Palpatine Saga all along.

evil laugh.

 

In the original trilogy, love was key to the redemption of Vader via Luke.

Love not only can lead to redemption, but also divide loyalties. On Mustafar, Vader’s love for Padme did not redeem him, but it did cause him to propose the idea of overthrowing Palpatine in an attempt to sway Padme.

Love is a threat to a Sith Master, IMO. Palpatine may have been capable of love as a child and young man. Perhaps he loved his parents, siblings, pets, or even a wife and kids. We really don’t know anything about his pre-Sith life.

But whomever he had held love for is surely dead. If they did not die of natural causes, then Plagueis may have killed them or forced Palpatine to kill them to sever his connection. Just as Palpatine told Anakin to kill all his former Jedi comrades, as Dooku was ordered to kill Asajj, or as Snoke had Kylo kill Han.

I think once everyone that he had loved is dead, thoughts can shift inward solely to ones ego and greed, fueling their power in the Dark Side.

A master loving their apprentice would be a liability to the master and an opportunity for the apprentice.

In the tale of Darth Plagueis, the apprentice kills Plagueis in his sleep once he felt he learned everything. Palpatine explains that Plagueis could save others from death, but not himself.

The fact that Plagueis is saving others from death with his power seems oddly like an act of compassion.

Plagueis is a pretty blank slate too, but in my head, if he’s saving other people from death, Palpatine (as his apprentice) would be a likely candidate for one of these people he would be willing to save. Which makes the murder in his sleep even more cruel.

An apprentice that develops love for the master can be more easily controlled.


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The thing is, the idea that all maladaptions or negative personality traits derive from past trauma is based upon outdated psychology. It's really tempting for writers to draw upon trauma to inform character motivation because it engenders juicy drama, but our understanding of the mind has evolved beyond Freud, and it's pretty trite to constantly fall upon these tired tropes when hacking out origin stories for heinous villains. Not to mention, there are so many Star Wars baddies with tragic histories that adding Palpatine to that list hardly enriches anything.

Palpatine could have just been the unfortunate "victim" of a genetic predisposition for dark personality traits coupled with self-entitlement. Sprinkle some thanatophobia, an uncomfortability with the natural course of life, and a disgust for "ordinary" beings and you have a villain with the potential for an interesting backstory that doesn't dilute his evil or rely on hackneyed tragedy as a crutch.

 

That is an incredibly uninteresting backstory IMO, so much so that there’s no point in telling it, if he’s been so unchanging and evil his whole life.

If a story told 30 years prior to the PT about Palpatine depicts him with the same core personality traits and no evolution of his personality, then might as well direct creative energies elsewhere, IMO.

Having said that, it’s ok to have the “muah ha ha, I’m delightfully evil” character, but then don’t give that character too much coverage lest it expose how shallow he is.

Lucas however presented evil as a choice. Not genetic, and he didn’t analyze what goodness is or who gets to define good and evil or subjective differences. In such a world, non of the characters were born evil. They chose it. And there’s only so many experiences and emotions that people can have that would plausibly steer them down those kinds of life paths. The more of these stories you tell, the more overlap there’s going to be. Just like in the backstories of the numerous supervillains.

The difference is that Star Wars has good and evil, the heroes journey, and choice coded into its DNA. The more of these tales we get about Jedi and Sith, whether it’s Luke, Anakin, Rey, Revan, Palpatine, Plagueis, the more we’re going to see different shades of the same thing.


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People don't always change that drastically throughout their lives. Why would a thirty-year-old Palpatine necessarily be much different from 60-year-old Palpatine as far as personalities go? He had over 60 years between TPM and TROS to grow as a person and never did, so that tells me that he's a pretty stable individual with deeply entrenched beliefs and an actualized sense of self.

Anakin was presented as a person with attachment issues from a young age and a set of personality traits that could be (and were) exploited for evil. He "chose" (more like cajoled or coaxed) to succumb to the dark side to save his wife, but his story isn't everyone's story, and his innate personality traits absolutely factored into both his propensity for evil and his capacity for redemption. Grievous and Tarkin aren't presented as individuals worthy of pity or reclamation, and neither is Palpatine. Sometimes there are just bad people without a "good" excuse--or any excuse.