ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

My biggest gripe with Palpatine in TRoS is the way he is visually presented. I find the way they almost completely hid him in shadow weird when he's probably the best actor in the saga. Seeing Ian McDiarmid's facial expressions is key to his great performance as Palpatine. And his movements looked weirdly stiff and unnatural. I was wondering was he a puppet or CGI while watching the film. That's what it looked like most of the time. But the behind the scenes documentary shows him in great make up and costume, so I don't know what happened. I guess the weird machine they had him tied to restricted his movement and then they added all the shadows to him. It's a shame because his vocal performance is still fantastic as always and he's entertaining to behold.

 

Wait. You wanted Palpatine to be out in the spotlight hamming it up for the camera?

 

Yeah, like in RotS and RotJ. I think he gives the best performance out of the whole saga in RotS. You don't like him?

 

I love him. But given that he was implausibly resurrected for TROS, and is essentially functioning as an old Dark Lord spirit making a last ditch attempt at conquering the galaxy with his fleet of ghost ships, I think this more...in the shadows look was much more appropriate. If he was just like "I'm back!," and looking and acting like his prequel and OT self, it would've come across like a bad sitcom.

 

Hmm, I think you're right. And he does detach from the machine and we see him better with his Sith eyes for a little bit. I just wish he was in that rejuvenated state longer. I think his death comes too soon. But he was still by far the best part of the film for me.

 

I do like that when they resurrected Palpatine he just looks like McDiarmid (albeit zombie McDiarmid).

I actually did not like that when he gets restored by leeching off the Dyad that he goes back to looking like a troll.

In the OT Palpatine looked like a guy who was ancient that had been alive way past his expiration date through evil magic. It’s weird that he would go back to that look after restoring himself

I wish he had just been restored into a healthier body (I.e just Ian in dark robes without all the prosthetics).


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I like it the way it is. The fact that his body is once again disfigured, the same way as before, suggests that using the power of the Dyad to restore himself requires an equally (or more) extreme exertion of his dark side powers as when he had his own lightning attack loop through him in ROTS.

 

Now here's a slightly different question: Besides the original and prequel trilogies, are there any stories of Palpatine that are worth telling? Arguably the sequels did not use him well, bringing him in too little too late. But would any story beyond what we'd already seen have been worthwhile to explore? Knowing that Return of the Jedi was a truncated version of a much longer story does make me wonder what kind of master villain Palpatine could have been post-Vader.

I think Dark Empire nailed the fact that his major contribution as a villain would be to serve as a tempter for the hero, much like he was with Anakin in the prequels. Only he would fail this time and be completely defeated. This is still what we got in Jedi, but it was an abbreviated version. But it does mean that any sequels that used him and placed him in a similar role would essentially be repeating and expanding on what we had already seen in that original finale.

So are any other stories of Palpatine valid explorations of the character? Are there any "promises," in other words, inherent in the introduction of this character that were left unfulfilled by Jedi and could have served as a legitimate area of exploration for the sequels?

 

The onlt story left for Palpatine to tell is his rise to power as a politicial and sith lord under his master Darth plagueis.

 

i h

Problem with that is that you kinda have two options.

1. Book gonna do some massive reconrexulization to a movie that’s above its pay grade in all honesty

2) Ep 10 gonna have to do some leg work and act like that evil spirit still isn’t dealt with which hey they can and market it as “Lucas 12 part saga come to life” but i feel that’s still looking back then moving forward

 

@Sauron_18

Continuing from my last message

There is always option 3 and have something like IDK the Ashoka series really recontexlualize Palpatine's return, but honestly i'm not sure how far they are willing to go to recontexualize the Sequels beyond by adding a bit more detail.

I mean i don't think the Lucasfilm of today per say adding a character like Ashoka who was the GREAT IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN ANAKIN'S LIFE ....Despite always watching Episode 3 and never getting the feeling she existed.

 

I know that some of the TV stories might provide more context for Palpatine’s return, but I wonder if that might just be a red herring. The character’s return was so messy in TROS, I wouldn’t be surprised if the cloning ends up being about something else entirely, something new. Because if it ends up being about Palpatine, then we’re back to the same scenario we’ve had since Disney took over, where they wrote themselves into limitations that didn’t have to be there (e.g., decades of peace). As much as the Sith Eternal interest me, I do wonder if any story told there will just be too constrained and ignorable (as you say, above a novel’s pay grade) to really be worth the hype?

The more I think on the question I posed last week, and look at what Palpatine’s role was like in the prequels and in the originals, the more I appreciate that there’s an elegance and simplicity to how his appearances. He has very specific goals in each appearance, whether it’s a big one or a minor one, and he has a steady and clear arc throughout the whole six-film saga. It’s true that RotJ is truncated, that perhaps there could’ve been another movie or more to make the Emperor shine as the villain in his ultimate form. But it also doesn’t really seem necessary. We don’t need the fireworks of TROS when we have the operatic malevolence of ROTS.

 

See I don't because i WANT THEM to ackowldge the Sequels and that means Palpatine's returns.

If you don't do that then you end up being like the Prequel haters who can't stand ever single little Prequel thing in something they like...It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

Also I like TROS and i want it to effect the lore like the prequels does and their are lot of ways to creatively recontexualize things with the Sith Eternal and Exegol.

To not do is probably a greater mistake honestly then to do it.

Then we Prequel lovers just end up to be the same hater that we claim the Original Trilogy fans are.

BUILD ON WHAT'S IN STAR WARS don't ignore...I honestly find the mentality to be creatively short sited in all honesty.

Palpatine coming back is part the lore...Most people who are probably watching these shows know it...the creators know it...they almost HAVE TO acknowledge it...That's the end game now it's time to give the context for it.


Also if you gonna let the Bloodline decades of peace line through yuh off...always remember...Screen Canon will ignore Page Canon if they want too.

 

If I look at Snoke as Palpatine’s Avatar in the ST it gives him a fuller story arc. What I like about it is the two fold end goals. On one hand it is the lofty plan to restore the Sith and Palpatine back to ruling the galaxy. On the other it is a petty revenge scheme to ruin the lives or kill everyone who stopped Palpatine in the Original Trilogy. There is something compelling about Palpatine’s level of absolute evil not having tiers of magnitude. Using Kylo Ren not only gives him a powerful tool for conquering the galaxy, it breaks up Han and Leia’s relationship, it causes Luke Skywalker to give up. There are these vindictively personal touches

 

If there is one i thing I totally buy about Palpatine is that no matter what...He's a pretty petty person at his core.

 

@Jid123Sheeve

The movies and books don't have to ignore TROS. I agree that it's shortsighted to do so. But having the narrative threads that seem to connect to a central mystery in the show only have a payoff in a movie that already came out years ago is questionable. But, having said that, I'm sure they can find a way to do something like what TCW did, to have their own climax without interfering with the established story. It just makes it feel like they won't introduce new, big, compelling mysteries because of when the stories are set.

This only really applies to The Mandalorian and The Bad Batch so far. There's no reason why other series would need to tie in with the cloning storyline that may or may not be connected to Palpatine's resurrection. And, to be fair, even in these shows the connection feels minor, though it potentially ties to more central elements of the story.

But you're right that new stories should build on what the ones that came before had already introduced. And while I do like TROS, and love some aspects of it, I do know that I have to accept it for what it is. Part of me wishes they'd just release a special edition that wasn't so messed up by executive meddling. But, as you've told me repeatedly, that's almost exactly what the movie novelization is. So I do agree that maybe reading that would finally help me accept TROS more fully.

And, @Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid, in relation to seeing Snoke as an extension of Palpatine, I do think that might be a good way of appreciating the sequels as a more cohesive story. And it's what at least three different writers (including Terrio!) have implied in their stories. It's not what the story group seems to believe, at least based on the reference guides. But reference guides don't have greater importance than actual stories, so I'm happy to recontextualize the movies and books related to them with the idea that Snoke really is just an extension of Palpatine.

All that aside, my question about whether more stories needed to be told about Palpatine after the prequels (out-of-universe) is not necessarily related to my opinions about TROS or the sequels. I do feel like they didn't handle it perfectly, which is part of why I raised the question. Because the question could be rephrased as "Is there any way to bring back Palpatine in a satisfying way?" His storyline is so concise, as is his characterization. And even stories that deal with his life before TPM seem unnecessary. But that's beside the point, because we do like reading additional stories beyond what we got, even if they're not necessary.

 

Read the dang TROS novelization.


Even if it's not Revenge of the Sith Novel it just better executes TROS in general because it actually slows down and gets in the characters heads

And it doesn't have to be just the cloning ...I could see Ashoka sensing dark powers in the Unknown Regions and they go for a more "What the heck is Exegol" angle in terms of Ancient Force Lore stuff. Since Ashoks is already tied to Mortis and what not anyway. So i can see Ashoka dealing with Palpatine's resurrection in that way too.

Heck I could see Ashoka being even more directly tied in since she is connected to Anakin who is connected to Palpatine and Ezra has also faced Palpatine.

But yes...Read the ding dang TROS NOVEL It's at least "Objectively" better than the movie. Will it change your mind on the fundamentals....Probably not...Will it at least tell a more cohesive story and string it together. Probably. At least, that's how most people I talk too say it does.

You put to much stock in Executive meddling and not that JJ himself is just a weird guy with weird taste. I think you give the executives to much credit there and not enough JJ being able to mess up himself.

Abrams is no pushover director he's quite a powerhouse in Hollywood.

Trust me there is NO Abrams cut...The Abrams cut is the film we got i 100% guarantee it don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.

Abrams made the film he wanted to make.

I think he can be an extension of Palpatine and have his own Free Will and personal goals.

(Like Hordak sees himself as a extension of Horde Prime before meeting a gamer girl and falling in love... oh wait wrong franchise )

Given what I guess from Story Group I feel like they probably have higher authority on this one. Only because of the whole Bad Robot/ Lucasfilm split. So if they say Snoke has free will...Then he's probably gonna have free will.

@Sauron_18

I mean i'll go further...Are stories even beyond Return of the Jedi Necessary...I'd say no. I say Return of the Jedi ended it in a nice little bow that honestly going forward would seem pointless.

Lucas intended that to be "The End" when he made it in the 80's it's why he allowed Post Endor stories and not Prequel ones. Honestly the "Sequel Trilogy" didn't really come to form until my guess the mid 2000's. Since all the original 7-9's or 10-12's all just became Return of the Jedi back in the day.

Do i like post Endor stores...Very much so yes.

 

My hunch is TROS could become a much better payoff and conclusion to future as yet unmade movies and TV series about the Sith. These stories would be set before TROS. Probably even before the prequels. It could be thousands of years earlier. They could include Palpatine, but I’m thinking would be more about earlier Sith and their history. In the future we might see the PT and OT having more to do with Palpatine, and the ST more with the Sith as a supernatural evil power.

 

I keep saying...Expand...On Exegol!

Especially if you wanna connect it to Darth Bane, now that would be something i'd be down for.

 

New SW material may reference the plan to resurrect Palpatine (as depicted in TROS), but it will never feature it (IMO). DLF are well aware of the contention around the sequels, and will focus their efforts on the characters/situations that are more popular. What I do think is happening is that Lucasfilm are effectively setting up the ‘Thrawn Trilogy’, with this being a more direct sequel to the OT, and which may involve the cloning of a Skywalker etc. etc.

 

What kind of stories would you like to see that feature Palpatine post-ROTJ and pre-sequels?

In a way this period acts as a microcosm of the millennium the Sith spent hidden before TPM. So many of the stories may end up reminding fans of books and comics in the early 2000s that dealt with that time period. But of course it's a different galaxy and it's essentially in the OT setting, which would be interesting.

This summer we'll have Shadow of the Sith coming out, which may set the tone for the kinds of stories that can be told. That one ties into the movies in several ways, but I'm hoping more books/comics simply explore the time period without having to be tied to the TV shows that are coming out. Because we saw how slow and tightly controlled the narrative was when the movies were coming out, so I'd love the post-movies expanded world of books and comics to feel freer than it has since Disney bought the franchise.

Personally I'd love to see more of Darth Sidious acting as a fully out Sith Lord, though one in exile and hidden from the rest of the galaxy. But I'd love to see more of Exegol and the Sith culture there, potentially even apprentices he may have had during this period. And of course, I'd love to learn more about his relationship with Snoke. Are they just master and servant, or does Sidious ever directly control Snoke? By focusing on Exegol, I think we could get some interesting indirect information about the ancient Sith while seeing how that manifests in the modern period of the franchise.

 

None. He's dead. Or such a waste of spirit devoid body that all he'd be is a voice.

Why have the 1000 years to the PT era done all over again, in a matter of 20 years?

Its essentially the same question I have with those calling for Post ST Rey stories, where she teams up Ahsoka and Grogu to rebuild the Jedi. Why redo all of the really cool stories that we've already gotten, and are right now currently getting, just to ... insert ST character into it.

Seems completely redundant, for no other sake than to match up with the poor creative writing of the ST.

 

I'm tired of him being used for everything. It's not as if there aren't other Sith that could be just as cool if written well. I just got done watching the SWTOR Disorder trailer. Give us a bad ass like Malgus.

 

Yeah, okay . . . but it's not like they're going to undo what they've already done or just straight up bring the EU into TV shows or movies. They already do that plenty.

 

Mandalorian saga will likley tease it