Saga People want to love a Bad Guy in SW

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by thejeditraitor, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
    i think a lot of of people dislike the new films because there is no bad guy they can hold up as "THE ULTIMATE VILLAIN". no villain they can "love". they're all awful people.

    kylo isn't cool enough for some. snoke was but he died. there is no vader, no maul and no sidious. this trilogy goes against the trope of making the villain cool and awesome to behold. the villains are portrayed as horrible, flawed individuals and people don't seem comfortable with that. they want straight evil.

    "snoke is all powerful and has a plan, etc, etc."

    but evil isn't lile that... especially now. evil is better represented in the new films because it's more realistic.

    the archetypes of evil have started to fail us.

    Avnar likes this.
  2. Darth Sith Saber

    Darth Sith Saber Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 24, 2016
    Let's just see where they go in 9 - there will likely be a new bad guy or gal: Snoke still alive, an apprentice for Kylo, Knights of Ren, a more mature and confident Kylo, who knows?
    11-4D likes this.
  3. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 5, 2016
    There are greater stakes now because the big bad is the last Skywalker descendent.

    I'm not sure why you would compare Maul. He "died" in the movie he premiered in.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  4. Darkspellmaster

    Darkspellmaster Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 20, 2015
    Dude, no, just no.

    It hasn't failed us. True enough having a realistic villain is great and all, but when they're not interesting, not something that you can really feel could be someone that will stick with you, then they can be the best real villain in the world, but they won't be remembered.

    People remember villains that stand out, and can be complex but also interesting in a way that makes them amazing. You can have the best hero in the world but if your villain falls flat then your series dose too.

    I can point to Bill Cypher as being a really complex character and someone insanely evil, and he sticks because he's interesting and funny and stands out,. Ben really is nice and all, but he doesn't stand out. Snoke and Hux, oddly enough, do.
    wobbits and Rhyoth like this.
  5. Darkspellmaster

    Darkspellmaster Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 20, 2015
    Maul was unique looking though and he got ad ons later that made him even more interesting.
    wobbits likes this.
  6. Rhyoth

    Rhyoth Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 20, 2015
    You also have to consider the "threat factor" : Rey bested Kylo twice** already, and he never received the "power up" promised by Snoke in TFA.

    So why should i even be worried ? Let's forget Vader's characterization for a second : he also bested Obi-wan in ANH, and Luke in ESB. Thus, he was a formidable opponent coming into RotJ.

    ** even if you want to call that second confrontation a draw, it's clear Rey had the upper hand in the end : she was lefft standing while Kylo was knocked unconscious.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
    Jamtia likes this.
  7. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 5, 2016
    This is my main issue. At least Maul took out Quigon, Dooku bested the Jedi in Episode II. Palps eliminates the Jedi. Don’t have to explain why Vader made us worry.

    How has Kylo bested Rey? With his feelings. Yeah I get he killed his own father but always see it as Harrison wanting to go as opposed to Kylo as a threat. And if there was any level of threat, it was quickly gone when Rey bested him on Starkiller without a problem.

    And I get it, Kylo is dark now. 100 percent pure evil. That’s great but how is he any stronger and more of a threat. I actually fear Rey more than I do Kylo. Imagine if she turned dark? Fortunately/Unfortunately LF would never allow it.
    Rhyoth likes this.
  8. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 20, 2012
  9. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Jedi Knight star 4

    Jul 29, 2016
    I think that Ben/Kylo is far more "complex", as you say, than Snoke. Do Snoke and Hux really stand out? I could be wrong but compared to Kylo, they both seem like one-dimensional villains.

    Whether a character stands out is subjective.
  10. Jordan1Kenobi

    Jordan1Kenobi WINNAR, CB DRAFT, CONQUEROR OF DP4M, also host star 6 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 30, 2012
    I think Kylo is not only one of the greatest villains, but one of the greatest characters in the entire Star Wars series. As for being “cool”, with his mask on, Kylo was extremely cool, but once he took it off, he became one of the most interesting and complex characters we’ve ever seen. Snoke was pretty cool too.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Feb 18, 2014
    An apprentice would be a very cool dynamic that we have not seen in the films.
  12. eko32eko7

    eko32eko7 Jedi Knight star 1

    Jan 10, 2018
    I do not go to see or sit down to watch Star Wars movies because the characters are "realistic". To me, until recently, Star Wars has been high tech mythology; I'm not looking for realism here. There's plenty of content out there that is specifically attempting to be "realistic". I don't need all that earthly clutter messing up a good fantasy franchise.

    Having said that, I think Krennic was an excellent villain, a highlight of the Rogue One and certainly more "realistic" than Kylo Ren. Further, Sidious/Palpatine, Maul, Tyranis/Dooku and Vader may be less "realistic", but are still far more interesting than Kylo Ren. If Kylo were killed off between Episode VIII and IX, I would find that to be acceptable. I mean, it wouldn't make much sense for the trilogy, sure, but that hasn't prevented any of the nonsensical "plot development" we've seen so far.

    I still find interesting variations on archetypes to be far more fascinating, especially over time, than what we have been fed in the the sequel trilogy. I suspect the passage of time will be much kinder to Lucas' approach than it will be to JJ/RJ's..
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
    CaptainEO, CT-867-5309 and wobbits like this.
  13. kyloten

    kyloten Jedi Youngling

    Jan 9, 2018
    In my opinion, the most important thing about a villain is not the "cool" factor, it's that they're interesting. Vader didn't work because he was cool, he worked because he was interesting. That's exactly why Kylo works so well for me and so many other people.
  14. wobbits

    wobbits Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 12, 2017
    I think RJ wants us to think that Kylo is some interesting/will he or won't he bad guy but I need to be shown rather than told. All the interviews keep pushing the agenda that Kylo is conflicted between his choice of the light side and the dark side BUT the films give us the opposite. Snoke is the one who is telling us that "Ren's soul is tortured" or " I stoked his conflicted soul." Rey is the one who says that his decision "isn't made." But when it comes to what Kylo actually does, he makes the determined decision to stay in the dark when presented with the light side path. Actions have shown him choosing the route that benefits him on his rise to power. The only thing he has wavered on was whether or not to push the button and take out his own mother. He didn't kill Snoke to save Rey. He killed Snoke because of what it would give him and at the time assumes that he can convince Rey to join him in power. He doesn't spare her because he "loves" her he spares her because he is aware of her power and what it can potentially do for HIM.

    Kylo doesn't give me that awe and wonder I had when Maul showed up for the first time, nor does he inspire the fear and trepidation seeing Vader emerge in the hallways on the Tantive IV.
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    Not only that, but the film’s way of showing that he is “conflicted” is to turn him into a drama king. He emotes about being “torn apart” and apparently we’re supposed to be drawn to sad eyes but I wasn’t buying it. He showed me exactly who he was when he killed Lor San Tekka and then his own father.

    I am a “show me who you are once, and I’ll believe you” kind of person, and Kylo showed me who he was.
  16. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 20, 2015
    I have no problem with flawed villains. Some of my favorite characters in fiction are flawed villains. It's just that none of the villains in the ST are interesting to me since I don't know their motivations or really, anything about them. Snoke just exists. That's all we know. I don't find Kylo sympathetic either. Killing Han made him unredeemable in my opinion. Plus, he hasn't done anything that would make me believe he was conflicted. He's just committed atrocity after atrocity.
  17. yodaman_reborn

    yodaman_reborn Jedi Master star 1

    Feb 7, 2009
    I think villains are important to the story because the greater the villain, the greater the hero has to be.
  18. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    People want to be entertained, they want to have fun, especially with Star Wars. They want to enjoy the experience of watching the movie. That's it.

    It doesn't matter if the villains are awful people. Vader and The Emperor were awful people, as was the rest of the Empire.

    If the villains are "realistic"...they still have to be enjoyable. Entertaining in what they do. If they're pathetic, it has to be in a way that is very sympathetic and very moving. If they're contemptible and repulsive...there's not likely to be much to enjoy. You just "do not want".

    Star Wars isn't some indie movie that denies you any sort of enjoyment because art.
  19. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 4, 2008
    The problem Ren from my that he comes across as such an ill defined character that you just DON'T CARE one way or another, like why does he exists again?

    Sitting at the theater two years ago I livid about how Han was killed, but because Kylo didn't deserve to be the one to it in the first place..
    and from what I'm reading his character hasn't changed much, which makes the thought of finally seeing TLJ so irritating..[face_sigh]
  20. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 4, 2008
    Fixing my post as there's not a permanent edit button.