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Perception of the Jedi Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Master_Shaitan, Mar 30, 2007.

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  1. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    There appears to be a split among Star Wars fans regarding the thoughts of the Jedi Council. I for one believe them to be caring, compassionate and selfless. They serve the Force and the Republic for the benefit of others. I believe they are loving beings who always make choices based on what the Force commands and on their strong morals.

    Others however believe the Jedi to be cold and misguided beings. Of course, there was arrogance in the order, but others go further with this and suggest the Order to be corrupt and in many ways heartless.

    Now, this thread isn't here to debate issues already being discussed, such as their role in the war etc. Its to disguss why these perceptions exist. I will give an example of this which includes a large part of why i think people have such a negative view of the Jedi Council/Order.

    It is the Jedi's role/mandate to serve the Force and Republic and to do what is right (in terms of following the will of the Force for instance) in the moment. They cannot allow greed to weigh into their decision making - else they won't be doing what is right for others. This is where the attachment issue comes in. Jedi cannot become attached else they fear losing that which they are attached to and act on that rather than doing their duty.

    Due to this the Jedi must be able to control their emotions. It's due to this that I think the Jedi are percieved to be heartless. For instance, we rarely see Jedi get angry or sad, aggressive or mournful. These are human emotions. But for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind, they cannot be harboured. Due to this they come across as cold. Their advice seems hollow and uncaring - "Don't fear losing the ones you love" is the kind of idea that people think make the Jedi to be empty beings.

    I think it quite the opposite. The Jedi's role prove this to me. The very fact that they live a life of selfless service for others shows just how compassionate and loving they are - how could you devote your life to someon which brings no reward if you don't love them? But it also shows how they offer these things in an unconditional and selfless way. So where the Jedi may seem to be heartless, they are in fact expressing love in the most wonderful way possible. They don't and can't sit around feeling sorry for themselves - they get on with their duty - see Kenobi in ROTS. He is devastated at what has happened to Anakin. But he knows he must do his duty despite of the personal torment it will cause him.

    So the question I am asking here is, what is your perception of the Jedi Council? If you feel they are heartless an cold, why? Is it this seemingly cold exterior that has perhaps informed your other views on the Jedi? For instance, if they are these heartless beings, then surely they can't be all that good?

    My view is that the Jedi were the light at the centre of the galaxy. They acted selflessly and always in the best interests of others. They served the Force and when they could hear it, followed its will. And when they appear to be cold and inhuman in their advice and support, they are in fact showing true love and offering the kind of advice that will bring happiness to the individual as well as the masses.
     
  2. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    I believe the jedi are the ultimate good guys. I mean, for the most part they've sacrificed there personal lives to serve the Republic because they were born with the force.It's not a job, they don't get paid, its a lifestyle. They'res the arrogance in the PT but only because they've went so long without the sith around. They've started to think that there way is the right way and do become misguided.

    But for the most part, there intentions are good and they are selfless beings. They endanger there life with almost every mission all for the peace of the Republic.
     
  3. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    The Jedi are selfless.

    Anakin says so himself.

    But they're also arrogant, rash, limited, incompetent and blind.

    All to varying degrees.

    Their methods and outlook undergo a slow thawing I - VI. THEN they are able to prosper and flourish as they once did.
     
  4. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    The Jedi Council was a collection of elders who, out of selfless resolve, strove to uphold a very rigid viewpoint of acceptable and unacceptable. They sought to do good on a societal level at the cost of restricting emotional development and expression in regards to the individual Jedi that comprised their ranks. This inflexibility on matters such as having one definitive definition and stance on attachment did much to cultivate the same set of circumstances that required what was essentially a required restart of the order, albeit this time with a new doctrine that paid heed to human needs more so than written rules. Yes, emotions have to be controlled. But there?s a difference between controlling emotion and subverting emotion. Too often did the prequel-era Jedi Order exhibit a desire to do the latter, whereas Luke, the catalyst for the destruction of the Sith, brings balance because he understood and accepted where his emotions led him.
     
  5. skgai1

    skgai1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2005
    The best way to disprove your theory is to look at Luke at the end of ROTJ. "I am a Jedi. Like my father before me." But he didn't have all the characteristics of the PT Jedi. He formed attachments, I think anyways. When Obi-Wan and Yoda told Luke to stay on Dagobah and finish his training he went to Cloud City to save his friends. He was right to do that. His friends would have died had he not come. He was attached to his friends. "Your faith in your friends is yours (weakness.)" The balance of the Force could be said to be a balance between the individual and the collective. You, as an individual, must know your part and must not try to corrupt (in any number of ways) the people around you. The whole is very impulsive and willing to shrugh off or even kill the individual. Those two must be balanced. That means that one person (like a Palpatine for instance) can throw off the whole thing. So had Luke abandoned his friends on Cloud City the collective might have gone against him and turned more cynical.

    The Jedi didn't believe in attachment. That's why Anakin was so troubled. He was attached to Padme. There was nothing he could do about it. He couldn't help falling in love. But when it was forbidden he had to be deceitful. A trait of the Dark Side. That opened the door right there for worse things to come. The Jedi were denying themselves the connection to others. That's one of the ways they were so arrogant. They felt they were better than the masses and didn't feel they needed to be with them and in fact set up codes against it. But Obi-Wan and Yoda are shown to be big heroes because they befriend the masses (Obi-Wan and Dex, Yoda and the Wookies) or they at least understand the POV of them (Obi and the Sandpeople).

    The Jedi were not cold and heartless, they just didn't understand the will of the Force yet. They didn't understand the Dark Side. They didn't understand Anakin. They didn't even understand Luke. The didn't understand too many whys. That is why they failed. Yoda says, "Failed I have," after confronting the Emperor. He doesn't say that because he lost the fight. He could have kept on fighting. He says that because he realized that he doesn't understand what's gong on and why.
     
  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    To address the topic more directly:

    Why do people have their perceptions? Simple: They go on the films. And RIGHT OFF THE BAT, TPM includes a philosophical disagreement between a Jedi Master and his padawan learner. Then there is a later scene between them where the Jedi Master tells his padawan that he has "much to learn", and does so as the sun is setting, implying the end of one era and the soon-to-be-beginning of another. These sorts of things stick in a viewer's mind. Lucas was consciously constructing an epic fall from grace at this point.

    Why people believe some of the more extreme things is a little less clear. We all have imaginations and we all let them run away with us. But the markers that are willfully designed to provoke our imaginations within the films are there. This was the way that Lucas decided to approach the saga. People might have thought they were getting noble Warrior-Monks who were somehow infallible and had little direct affect on the fall of one of their own, but this clearly wasn't the case. As if dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's", Lucas then had Obi Wan and Yoda -- the two surviving Jedi -- BOTH declare they'd failed in the final minutes of the concluding piece. If that isn't cause to look into the Jedi Order and cast a discriminating eye, then I don't know what is.
     
  7. skgai1

    skgai1 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 1, 2005
    Such poetry that scene is. It tells us everything that the PT is going to be about in so many ways. I just had to stop and reaffirm how great this films as FILMS are.
     
  8. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I agree with Shaitan in that I believe the Jedi to be a flawed Order(simply because while they may be connected to the Force they're still only human...so to speak), but one that is ultimately noble. They clearly failed to stop the Sith, so they aren't infalllible or perfect, but few claim them to be.

    I think the reason for the more extreme view that the Jedi are corrupt and evil is partially that people don't want to believe that good can be out maneuvered, out-witted, and outplayed without said good having given in to moral peversion. There's also that the viewer is intended to find Anakin more sympathetic than the Jedi(other than arguably Obi-Wan) due to his being the protagonist. A third reason is simply a disagreement on how the Force works. Those who think that the Dark Side is something to be avoided tend to give the Jedi more credit than those who believe one must strive to balance both the Dark and the Light, which is completely understandable because the Jedi beliefs are far more in-line with the former than they are with the latter.

    As far as the Jedi appearing emotionless, that's largely due to them being in control of said emotions most of the time, and while people do often cite the Jedi Code's "There is no emotion, There is Peace." they are misinterpreting it due to either not knowing about or ignoring the further explination given about that line that it really means that a Jedi shouldn't deny their emotions, but that they should overcome and deal with them, which I think is shown in the films as both Yoda and Obi-Wan show emotion, but they move on and do their duty when it's required of them.

    So I think the Jedi are selfless, noble, heroic, but were ultimately blindsided by the Sith's plan that had been in the works for millenia to bring the Jedi down with the very government they were sworn to protect.
     
  9. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    The PT Jedi were good at heart, but failed. They said attachment, and fear of losing it, can lead to suffering/ignorance/greed, getting in the way of one's compassionate duty. So they tried to ban attachment altogether, they were too focused on the Big Picture, the unifying force.

    Then there was Qui-gon, who lived in the moment, in the living force. A point of his character, I think, was that it's okay to form attachments. But when you are going to lose them, let go of them rationally, living with what do with what you have in the moment, instead of what you want. And Qui-gon proves he is right by finding immortality, and Obi-wan and Vader sacrificing themselves later on for Luke, by doing all they can in the moment.

    So the Jedi had the right idea, but the wrong ethod. Instead of forbidding attachment, teach Jedi how to let go of them when the time comes.
     
  10. PerfectCell

    PerfectCell Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 3, 2005
    This sums up my thoughts very well. I don't think the Jedi were bad, but I do think there view of the force and of what was right and wrong, of light and dark was wrong.
     
  11. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    It was in fact a mistake. All Luke did was risk his friends lives. Leia had to rescue him. This is how Lucas designed it. He says on TESB dvd commentary that Luke was wrong in rushing off before completing his training. It was Luke's attachments that were behind this. He had to learn to let go...

    Its about knowing what you can and cant do, accepting that and doing what is right. Luke not rushing off wouldnt mean he didnt love his friends, it would just mean that he realises there isnt anything he can do about it. Thats the balance. At the end of ROTJ, Luke is given the chance to save his friends. But he rejects that. He renounces the Dark Side and sacrifices his life because it is the right thing to do in the moment. Its about loving with greed - attachments.

    Slow down. there was no one stopping him from loving Padme, he just wasnt allowed a relationship with her nor should he become attached. But he let that happen - despite himself and Padme knowing that it would be the end of them. Anakin chose to be decietful because he wanted everything. He wasnt forced to lie at all.

    How'd you work that out? The jedi were humble. They actually served the masses! They served the galaxy. They were more in touch with others than anyone else. They loved unconditionally, without greed.

    What do you mean "they didnt understand the will of the force?" What makes you say or think that? They didnt understand Anakin fully because he kept things from them. They understood Luke all too well - and through their training he was able to do the right thing. Yoda knew he had failed because he saw that he couldnt just get back up and fight Sidious. It was too late. He had the one chance. He failed. And he wou
     
  12. PerfectCell

    PerfectCell Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 3, 2005
    I don't feel they understood the will of the force, but I don't believe the Sith understood the will of the force either. The force is the force, it is neither light nor dark, but rather it is one all encompassing force. By drawing out only the dark or the light and ignoring all that the other side entailed neither the Jedi or the Sith ever had any true understanding of the will of the force.
     
  13. Jedi-Queen

    Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2005
    "The Jedi were denying themselves the connection to others. That's one of the ways they were so arrogant"

    What you see as arrogance I see as sacrifice. They give up everything the average person desires so
    they can keep focused on their main goal..to act as guardians for peace and justice in the galaxy.
    They don't form attachments b/c they think they're better than everyone else, that would imply arrogance.
    They do it to spare themselves and others from the negative things that can come with highly emotional
    attachments - hello..Anakin.
    They do form relationships, obviously, look at Obi-Wan and Anakin for example or Obi-Wan and QGJ.

    I believe the Jedi were noble, heroic and selfless. I believe some see them as flawed and weak b/c in
    this day and age the concept of the hero has become askewed.
    Heroes now are larger than life characters with big weapons and big attitudes.
    Or there's always the type who is more human like b/c he's dealing with conflicts from
    an inate, inherited or manufactured mutation.
    My point is unless you carry a big gun/knife/something or have a special power that makes you cool you don't
    get much respect as a hero these days :)
     
  14. skgai1

    skgai1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2005
    I'll have to listen to this commentary again before I give you a reply, but I agree with Darth-Ghost.

    Luke was attached to his father in ROTJ, but he was able to let go of him and get off the Death Star in time. To me that scene shows how Luke was attached to him, but then was able to let go when the time was right.

    Luke rejects the chance to save his friends? No. He realizes that he can't defeat the emperor. Then he goes and tries anyways. I agree with what your saying, but not that its about the balance of the force. Knowing what you can and can't do and accepting it deals with being power-hungry. Anakin couldn't accept that Padme might die so he kept trying to gain more and more power. Its not that had he realized that she might die and accepting that would have balanced the Force, its that it would have stopped him from seeking so much power. I ask you this. In the end, what power did Luke not have? He was the strongest person in the galaxy and he could attain life after death. He seems to have had no limitations, but that was only after Anakin created balance in the force for him. You make it sound like Luke is creating the balance. Qui-Gon knew what he could and could not do and accepted that, but he still didn't create balance. You still need strength and power. Trying to do something you can't do will no doubt throw the balance of the Force out of whack, but it is not necessarily THE balance of the Force.

    How can you love someone if you can't have a relationship? He loved her and needed to be with her and the Jedi were denying him that. He either had to be deceitful or not become a Jedi. Which would you choose? "I wish that I could just wish away my feelings. But I can't." He's helpless to it and has to have her. "Being without you. I can't breathe." Besides, he was a great Jedi when he was with Padme. He just turned sour when he wouldn't let her go. Also, the Jedi knew Anakinw as attached to his mother yet they still trained him because they thought if he oculd let go it would be alright. They needed to stress the letting go part until he understood it not that he couldn't form attachments.

    When Anakin is talking to Padme he says, "In many ways I'm ahead of him (Obi-Wan). But he's holding me back." That's arrogance, thinking your better than someone else. And the other Jedi have the same problem. "Yes, a flaw more and more c
     
  15. RamRed

    RamRed Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2002
    The PT Jedi were good at heart, but failed. They said attachment, and fear of losing it, can lead to suffering/ignorance/greed, getting in the way of one's compassionate duty. So they tried to ban attachment altogether, they were too focused on the Big Picture, the unifying force.


    I agree that the Jedi were good at heart. But I suspect that they also cared a great deal about their position within the Republic and believed that they had risen above their own weaknesses and inner darkness.
     
  16. boxy_brown

    boxy_brown Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2007
    great post....i love topics like this

    Can the jedi serve 2 masters? (highlighted above) Can any of us?

    i believe it is impossible, and we see this theme played out in the PT quite often. it is why the jedi are so easily and expertly played by Palpatine. he may be evil but his allegences arent divided.

    are the jedi "evil"? i cant see that at all. there intentions are good, but we know what road is paved with good intentions. and being used as a tool by Palpatine (knowingly or not) isnt a "good" thing.

    are they evil, no.
    are they overrated, yes.

    there is a reason why monastics isolate themselves from real world events. its always a lose lose situation. "if i do not contend, then no one can contend against me...yield and overcome".
     
  17. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Exactly. Just as Palpatine / Sidious was bad at heart. He also cared a great deal about his position within the Empire and believed that he had risen above his own weaknesses and inner darkness.
     
  18. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2007

    Don't the Jedi think the same way? Aren't they concerned with be being in the upper echelons of society? In ROTS before they knew Palpatine was a Sith they didn't want him to have any control over the Jedi Council because they wouldn't be in control anymore. Aren't Jedi also supposed overcome their own inner weaknesses and darkness? The Jedi and the Sith are two different sects of the same religion.
     
  19. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I'm not sure Palpatine believes in the moral conontations of an inner darkness. He's aware of his more base emotions, but I see no proof that he thinks he's moved beyond them given how he's constantly prodding people to use their anger, and he does the same against Mace and Yoda.

    The Jedi don't care about their status in the Republic, it's merely a means to an end for them.

    It's more that someone who is unable to use the Force can't discern the Will of the Force,which is what the Jedi serve above even their loyalty to the Republic.

    Jedi are supposed to overcome and move beyond the darkness, but the Sith are supposed to embrace it.
     
  20. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2007
    While the Sith do embrace the Dark Side, it does not mean they have to use it an evil way. It is about point of view. If there is a world on the Outer Rim which the Jedi ignored and allowed corruption to fester, but the Sith cleaned up and militarized would the people of that world consider Jedi the saviors of the galaxy? Just using the dark side doesn't make the Sith evil. For example Yoda uses Force lightning against Dooku in Aotc. Is he no longer a Jedi because he utilized the dark side?
     
  21. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Yes it does. The Dark Side is inherently evil.

    What the people of that world think =/= the truth. The Sith are clearly able to trick people into thinking they're not evil given that the Rebellion wasn't larger than it was, but that doesn't mean they aren't evil(which is canon given that the opening crawl for ESB states Vader is evil and Lucas has stated that Palpatine was like the devil.)

    Yoda reflects Dooku's lightning, no more.
     
  22. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2007

    If the dark is inherently evil that means ever person to ever use it is evil, which is not true. In TPM Obi-Wan uses the dark side when fighting Maul, and Luke uses it in ROTJ when fighting Vader but they aren't evil. Mace uses Vaapad, which opens him to the Dark Side, yet he is no more of a Sith than Yoda.
     
  23. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    No, but had they continued using it they would have eventually become agents of evil. It's not that it's like demonic possession where one who uses the Dark Side immediately becomes a monster, but if you embrace it as the Sith do it will twist your perceptions until you are one.

    True, but Mace didn't embrace the Dark Side in the same way the Sith do. Mace used it, but never succumbed to it.
     
  24. DarthApocalypse

    DarthApocalypse Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2007
    But where is the line drawn? According to Yoda and most other Jedi, once you use the dark side you cannot deviate from its path. How many dark side acts can be used before you consider someone a Sith. If Obi-Wan had used the dark side against Dooku in AOTC would you consider him a Sith then? Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas, yet he wasn't considered a Sith until Sidious became his master. My point it that you can't allow excuse the use of the dark side for certain people, but then say anyone who uses the dark side in automatically an evil Sith.
     
  25. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I'm not saying anyone who ever uses the Dark Side is evil, I'm saying anyone who embraces the Dark Side as the Sith do is evil unless they renounce it as Anakin did at the end of his life. Dooku's muder of Sifo was still evil, but just because someone is evil doesn't mean they're a Sith Lord. Mace's use is an exception as while Vapaad uses the Dark Side, he has enough self-control to not lose himself to it.
     
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