Perception of the Jedi Order

*brain overload* when you wonder what choice is, you start wondering about existence and god and life/death, and personally i believe that Anikin wasn't the chosen one, luke was

 

Based on what, exactly? The prophecy states that the Chosen One is supposed to destroy the Sith. Luke does not do that.

 

Does it?

 

"You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! That you would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness!"

There's also Lucas's quote that balance is brought when Anakin destroys the Sith.

 

and yet Anakin kills one sith, ONE WHOLE SITH!!!



whereas the last of the Sith, Vader, is brought back by Luke, not Anakin, resulting in the rebalancing of the force (you can bring yourself back to the light? )

 

Luke was the catalyst, but Anakin had to choose to return to the Light. Anakin also killed Palpatine after Luke/Anakin had already destroyed Vader.

 

"It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them!" <----How do we know that just wasn't the point of view of the Jedi? The prophecy is never revealed to the audience. Only an interpretation of the prophecy is revealed to the audience and one of the Jedi tells the audience that the Jedi may have misread the prophecy.

Yeah, there is that. The thing is: When Lucas talks about Star Wars, he talks about it from a Jedi-centric point of view, but since things within the story of Star Wars are to be seen from different points of views then Lucas has not given fans the big picture so I wouldn't dwell on Lucas quotes.

 

It was a Jedi prophecy, so I doubt that they misread that critical a part of it.

The fact that Lucas almost always has a pro-Jedi perspective is only further proof that at least as far as he's concerned the Jedi are in the right.

 

if you really want to be technical, why not say that sidious is the chosen one, because he's the fool that caused the sith to actually die, (not paying attention to what your own apprentice is doing *tsk tsk*)

 

Yeah, so Yoda's dialogue is just throw away dialogue? We don't know what was said in this prophecy because it is never talked about. Obi-Wan does not say, "The prophecy said you would destroy the Sith, not join them," so I'm sorry your debate is pointless. What Obi-Wan says is open to interpretation because the word "It" was not defined.

Yeah, if you want to have Lucas do your thinking for you then go for it.

 

I am sure they read it correctly word for word. Its like when a young kid reads a book that is over his/her head. Being able to read, and comprehending the meaning are very different. The Obi-wan quote above is simply shortsighted. Anakin in fact doesn't "leave" anything undone, it just takes a while. The jedi are full of doubletalk, why would you expect one of there prophecies to be any different.

 

but at the same time, Anakin had to kill to stop Sith Lords

Luke was able to reason, and win them with love, which in terms of the lightside, is the far greater power

 

True enough, but the fact that he mentions the Prophecy of the Chosen One just prior to that I think it's a reasonable albeit not the only interpritation.

No, I just happen to agree with him on most things. I think he's flat-out wrong that Anakin wasn't redeemed for example. What he says about the movies in terms of events also is canon, so it's not simply thinking he's right, it's accepting the facts as stated by Lucasfilm Ltd. about the Star Wars universe.

It takes awhile, but at that time Anakin had left the Force in darkness. You're expecting Obi-Wan to be omniscient when the films never have him claim that he's anything of the sort. I also see no reason the Jedi couldn't comprehend a Prophecy that was written by a Jedi. It's also canon(due to Lucas quotes) that the Prophecy = Destroying the Sith so within the Star Wars universe it's a fact that Obi-Wan's right about the Prophecy.

 

Yes, in literal terms the prophecy was correct about Anakin destroying the Sith. In a more in-depth sense of all things in the saga being interconnected, however, it?s not merely the Force that needed to be brought into balance, but rather galactic society as a whole. In this way Yoda?s admission that the Jedi may have misread the prophecy makes sense, as the end result of destroying Palpatine was unachievable until the conqueror?s mentality to search and destroy took a back-seat to the greater instinct of converging as a family/community. Thus Anakin?s triumph is a direct result of seeing his son?s love, while as a whole the galaxy appears to have remedied itself through community as well after learning that real freedom fighters are not the ones grown in jars and purchased at a special bulk rate. Rather, it?s up to the Han Solos and Ewoks of the universe to decide to take a stand in the name of achieving the larger state of harmony that wasn?t fully detailed in the Jedi?s initial reading of the Chosen One prophecy's real import.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There we have it. Star Wars in a nut shell. That's the Star Wars Lucas never speaks of.

Here is Lucas talking about Star Wars--->Yeah and here we have Darth Vader bringing balance to the Force by killing the Sith and ridding the galaxy of evil and things like that. <--of course that's not an actual quote because I don't feel like finding, copying, and pasting the actual quote.

Okay, so that's makes no sense whatsoever because Obi-Wan clearly tells the audience in the original movie that the Force is a energy created by all living things. So please explain to me how the death of two guys brings balance to a life energy that is created by all living thing. On second thought don't waste your time because whatever you say I won't believe anyway because it's simply impossible for the death of two guys to bring balance to an energy created by all living things and if that is truly what the story means then Star Wars is retarded. However, see the above paragraph by ezekiel22x to appreciate that the death of two guys didn't bring balance but it was actually the collective energy of many people who stopped being apathetic and starting caring for one another that brought balance to a life energy that is created by all living things.

Now the thing is: Everyone hangs on to these Lucas quotes like they're the end all be all, and I admit for a time I got caught up in the Lucas quotes myself. However, Lucas has also said that he never explained what it all means so therefore what Lucas has said to date is not the end all be all, and please don't make me find, copy, and paste that one either. It was in the Vanity Fair that had that cover that when unfolded had a 4 or 5 page picture with most of the main characters from throughout the saga but which Wicket was suspiciously absent from.

 

You underestimate the Sith. Look what happens when they take over - the galaxy becoms overrun by evil ("evil is everywhere"). The Sith ensure that "evil takes over good". It is easier to come by. There is corruption everywhere. This cannot be denied. Just see the films!

Due to this all living things are effected negatively. They are no longer free. They are oppressed. The energy in which they create which in turn creates the Force is wholly negative. More and more people committ evil and more and more people suffer because of it. So the "act of living" as Lucas puts it that creates the Force is severely effected when the Sith are about. When they are destroyed things balance out. Good and evil still exist but you don't have the Sith about acting as a catalyst for evil. They are balanced.

They are just that influencial. The films are evidence of this. Two Sith are capable of effecting the entire galaxy. They bring oppression, war, greed and corruption. In a word, evil.

The Jedi on the other hand do not disrupt the balance. They merely protect the good. But they can never be infuencial enough to destroy all evil. Thats impossible for a Jedi. If they ever tried to become this infuencial they would in fact become evil like the Sith. All the Jedi can do is stand for justice and democracy. Through this they can prevent evil from taking over the good.

 

at the same time, Anakin only caused pain, killed/slaughtered thousands of people in the Jedi temple and made it possible for the death of the rest througout the Galaxy

in a word he was as evil as you can get (slaughtering children *shivers*) and i highly doubt that the prophecy could have been that far off about The Chosen One's character

and the only person to end the dark careers of more than one Sith Lord is Luke, who inherited his father's powers and prowess
Obi killed: 1, Qui-Gon: none, Anakin: 1, other Jedi: none

the one who truly ended the sith is Luke, because, Luke's love is what brought Vader back...

edit: and lukes love is the reason that vader killed sidious

 

They did a mighty fine job of this in the PT, doncha think?

 

Not the best, no. But they would have succeeded had it not been for Anakin. Ironic, considering his title.

 

yet we still haven't agreed if he owns that title by anything other than GL's words...

 

Immolated_One: "star wars in a nutshell" really liked that post. Its like you were reading my mail =)

Master_Shaitan: I don't think its a matter of underestimating the Sith at all. No matter how evil we want to believe they are, no 2 people can enslave an entire galaxy. It takes alot of misguided people to support them, and alot of complacent people to not do anything to stop them. This is what the PT is all about. If anything, I think we give them too much credit, or better put we give them all the blame for everyone elses faults.

Yuna: I think the prophecy applies perfectly to Anakin. While this is just my interpretation, he did seem to bring balance to the entire system. Sometimes it takes an inside man to get the job done. Because I am of the mind that the Force has no intention, as far as good and bad, I also believe what path Anakin takes to achieve this end result is irrelivent.

 

Then why are the Jedi condemned when they realize the truth and move to fight the Sith?

Out of curiosity, what's your interpretation of the 'Will of the Force' as mentioned by Qui-Gon?

 

if you really think about it

being the Chosen one could very well be luke, because, every one says Anakin was the chosen one, even GL says that "according to the Prophecy" Anakin is the CHosen One

what if the goal of the prophecy was to distract the Sith, because they all thought that Anakin was the chosen one, they would try immediatly to break him, but if they killed Padme, luke wouldn't have been born, and that would have been the permanent end of the Jedi

the prophecy could have been a distraction to keep Luke from dieing before HE could bring balance to the force, by redeeming his father and killing Sidious, ending the empire, for the time being...

 

A good question, and I see where you arre going =) My problem isn't that they engaged the Sith in combat, its the fact that they were involved in the galactic drama at all. I don't believe the "force" takes sides, so how can you serve the Force by taking sides.

From the descriptions offered me in the saga, the "force" is most closely related to the "tao", as far as real world philosophy goes. An all encompasing, yet non existent concept, that is everywhere and nowhere at once. So I see the "force" as being beyond intention or having a will. "will" is a concept that is man made, designed to serve the interest of man. Having the idea that your cause is good and right and true is arrogance and ego. If the "force" subscribes to these ego driven concepts then it is a joke, and is no better than any man who praises it.

The Force has no will, or intention. It is just easier to justify your actions if you have divine will on your side.

 

The idea of tao is, of course, as man-made as the idea of divine will.