Personality characteristics in lightsaber styles

Thanks, Jedi Merkurian.

So I'm going to assume from your answer that although Obi-Wan calmed himself and drew on the light side of the Force to defeat Maul, he was still pissed enough about Maul killing Qui-Gon that he WANTED to and did cut Maul in half.

I'm also going to assume that Dooku's slashes to Obi-Wan's arm and leg reflect a battle with a powerful opponent (who was unfamiliar with Dooku's sabre style), to the chagrin I'm sure of those who are inclined to denigrate Obi's abilities based on that scene.

As for Jango having drawn one Jedi Master to a stalemate, Knight Kenobi's engagement with Jango was driven by Yoda's order to him to bring in Jango for questioning -- I assume without inflicting injury if possible. Windu, with Jedi in the middle of the Geonosis arena surrounded by thousands of battle droids and other opponents, apparently was past wanting to question Jango and, therefore exercising any of Obi-Wan's restraint re. inflicting serious injury or killing him.

 

Jedi Merkurian,

I forgot to note that I kind of figured Vader really hated Obi Wan before being educated about the type of strikes given that in ANH Obi Wan had, in effect, disarmed himself before Vader cut him in half. Call me crazy but I'm inclined to think that when a Jedi suddenly comes to a stand still and holds up his sabre in front of his face in the middle of a duel, he's stopped defending himself.

But being educated about the type of strikes and their significance certainly contributes to my appreciation of the various duels. Good stuff. Thanks.

 

Wow Jedi Merkurian thanks so very much for that info! Now I have to comment

I remember reading somewhere that for experienced duelists, the "boot-to-the-head" is a sign of disdain for your opponent. Basically, Maul was insulting Obi-Wan.

It does seem kind of embarassing wouldn't you think for Obi-Wan to get kicked in the head so much. It's kind of like Maul's like 'I'm not even going to kill you, you sorry little punk.'



Wound
shiim ["she-eem"]
Any kind of wound with the edge of the lightsaber blade is shiim. An inconclusive mark of contact, shiim is considered inferior to other marks that decisively end a battle. Its appearance thus expresses struggle with a powerful opponent.

Assuming this is what Dooku is doing, that does put a damper on all the 'Obi-Wan is such a wimp! He was only nicked!' complaints indeed I imagine it would still be damaging to nerves, besides it's clearly an acknowledgement of Dooku's that Obi-Wan wasn't nearly the 'disappointing' swordsman he says he is.



Stab
shiak ["she-ack"]
Jedi tradition consideres shiak (stabbing) an honorable method of inflicting serious injury since it causes the least visible injury to the opponent's body. Shiak can thus express Jedi respect for an opponent and the living Force even as it delivers a fatal blow.

Maul is a trained swordsman obviously, and even in his viciousness he's very calculating. It seems to me that even though he uses some underhanded moves (hey, he's a Sith) there are still some swordfighting protocol to follow. Qui-Gon was obviously a pretty worthy oppononent. On the other hand, maybe it was just the most convienent move for Maul to make


Cut Off Weapon Hand
cho mai ["cho my"]
Cho mai instantly ends an oppenent's ability to use a weapion but does not kill, making cho mai a preferred Jedi move. The precision of cutting off only a hand is considered the mark of a superior lightsaber master.

Cut Off Weapon Arm
cho sun ["cho sun]
Cho sun (disembering), cutting off an opponent's entire weapon arm, is a move lacking the precision and elegance of cho mai, but cho sun is the move most often necessary under surprise combat conditions or where no chances can be taken.

So basically in all these cantina brawls, Obi-Wan's just trying to show off?



Behead
sai cha ["sigh cha"]
Sai cha, from the ancient words for "separate" and "head", describes the chilling Jedi ability to behead an opponent in a flash of the lightsaber. Jedi commit sai cha only when battle is at its most deadly serious and threatening, or when an opponent is considered aextremely dangerous even to a fully trained Jedi.

I agree that Mace used this as a last resort. Obviously Jango has lots of tricks up his sleves as we see in his fight with Obi-Wan, and he just had to be taken down anyway possible.



Cut Body in Half
sai tok ["sai tock"]
Jedi consider the bisection of a living oppenent's body a form of butchery, a desecration to be avoided if possible. The savage extreme of sai tok is thus normally used only against battle droids. We see Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan Kenobi deliver sai tok to many battle droids in episodes I and II. Sai tok represents a potentially Sith-like desire to destroy one's enemy, whereas the Jedi goal even in combat is an inner focus on defeating the danger of opponents rather than hating them and wishing utter destruction upon them.

I agree with whoever said that Obi-Wan had calmed himself, but really was still pissed off about Qui-Gon inside. Look at his face when he cops Maul in half. And look at Maul's- he obviously wasn't expecting to be killed, and certainly not in such a manner. Obi-Wan could have easily just run him through, but instead we see him kind of treading the Dark Side there. It's something that's always intrigued me about this fight and this little insight into Obi-Wan. We always see him as the voice of reason who is always calm, but I think we see a flash of the fact that he is very powerful and if that power were unleashe

 

I think that Anakin/Vader has a weakness with attacks directed directly towards him from the front. Examples are:

1.) Dooku slices his arm off with an attack that comes up from the front.

2.) Luke kicks him down the stairs in Jedi.

3.) When Vader threatens Leia, Luke comes right at him with a front thrust and gets Vader off balance.

Even though all of these happened because of scripting, and probably not meant as a metaphor, one could read into it that Anakin has a problem with the most obvious things. Such as making the right choices and being blind-sided from the front.

I think Luke using the two-handed method has more to do with his (Mark's) training in kendo (a primarily two-handed method) and the fact that Mark is left-handed and Luke is right-handed.

This shouldn't be a spoiler for E III to anyone, but if it is do not read further. As a side note, I hope that when Anakin falls into the lava that Kenobi side kicks him into it ala Luke kicking Vader down the steps in Jedi. It would add great depth to Vader's "Obi-Wan has taught you well" line.

 

I'd hesitate to say that all these "styles of blows" or whatever, and all the significance placed on them, might be a little too much. In battle, I expect that Jedi would take what opportunities they had. So Obi-Wan, defeating Maul, may not have been thinking "I really hate Maul, I'll cut him in half" but instead been thinking, "How can I defeat this guy as quickly as possible?"

I don't deny that the styles are there, but this might be an example of the Jedi Order getting too stylized and set in its ways. Remember, before TPM no Jedi has crossed blades with a Sith in a thousand years, and the only time they might have fought a serious duel against a skilled opponent would be against one of the "lost twenty." In other words, for ten centuries, most lightsaber duels have been between Jedi and Jedi for the sake of building skill. When you take away the practical application, things have a tendency to get much more stylized. Witness fencing. It developed out of swordfighting, of course, but a modern fencer would be useless in a real swordfight. Too much emphasis on form, too many restrictions and rules. In a real fight, you go for your opponent any way you can.

So all these rules and so on might have been developed not for combat, but for show.

 

That could very well be a natural offspring of Jedi not having the Sith to fight.

Without the actual necessity of life or death in a duel, the Jedi began to come up with more elaborate skills and ways to fight. It moved away from the actual survival situation into a skillful, but lacking in soul, technique instead.

I'm liking your stuff as well, Jedi Merkurian. You have a good way of looking at things.

 

JediHunterCommand

I'd hesitate to say that all these "styles of blows" or whatever, and all the significance placed on them, might be a little too much.

Well there is a point to overanalyzing, but I think there's also a point to what is recognized in any fight as a dirty move or a more respectful way to die.

So Obi-Wan, defeating Maul, may not have been thinking "I really hate Maul, I'll cut him in half" but instead been thinking, "How can I defeat this guy as quickly as possible?"

He could have just as quickly disposed of him by impalling him and pushing him down the shaft. There's a distinct anger still in his eyes, and if you ask me, cutting someone in half is a pretty violent thing to do- not the most pragmatic.

Remember, before TPM no Jedi has crossed blades with a Sith in a thousand years...In other words, for ten centuries, most lightsaber duels have been between Jedi and Jedi for the sake of building skill.

This is very true. However, whatever remnants of the Sith might still exist have also never battled with the Jedi. So both sides are well-trained but not well-practiced in a practical situation.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

This is great stuff, but I think you guys missed one:

Damage or Destroy Weapon
sun djem ["sun jem"]

Dooku used this on Anakin (I think; it still counts even though he had another lightsaber right?). Was he trying to end the battle without injuring him, or was it simply a convenient thing to do at the time? Consider the fact that at the end of the battle, he force-pushed him away instead of killing him. Also- where was that final strike against Obi-Wan (the one Anakin lept forward to block) aimed?

One more thing- in ESB, Luke does fight one-handed, if only briefly. Right after he says "you'll find I'm full of surprises", he tries for a series of one-handed strikes... and is immediately disarmed (shame there's no fancy Jedi word for that). He also knocked Vader's saber away from him when he was on the ground ("You are beaten. It is useless to resist!") with a one-handed strike, but he probably had little choice in that instance.

I was also thinking- in 'real life', wouldn't it be best to duel with two lightsabers, one in each hand? I figure the disadvantages would be few (less power with a one-handed strike, but lightsabers have little weight and can maim with even a slight tap).

 

jabba_the_nut

Anakin fights with two lightsabres in AOTC, and yes this is a pretty good thing if you can master it. You have 360 protection and attack potential. However, it's very hard to manage. As we see, Dooku is able to get rid of one of Anakin's lightsabres fairly quickly (presumably due to Anakin's inexperience, and as Obi-Wan mentions, his arrogance in lightsabre fighting). When Dooku gets rid of one of Anakin's sabres, I don't think it's symbolic of anything, I think it was just a special case where having two sabres was just too dangerous.

The same thing applies to Maul's double bladed lightsabre- as we've discussed, it's a good weapon but hard to master. Obi-Wan effectively destroys one end of it, but I'm pretty sure it's just because the double-bladed sabre gave Maul a great advantage.

I think, though, that if someone had a weapon equal to your own and you just wanted to end the fight and not kill them, damaging their weapon would be an honourable thing to do.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Edit:

jabba_the_nut wrote:

Dooku used this on Anakin (I think; it still counts even though he had another lightsaber right?). Was he trying to end the battle without injuring him, or was it simply a convenient thing to do at the time?

That's a good question. I was wondering why Dooku didn't take off Anakin's hand at the very least, which you'd think would be just as easy. Maybe he went with a smaller, more conservative move because he was wary of Anakin's speed? It's an interesting thought that he might have wanted to preserve Anakin "undamaged," as Vader might have said.

Consider the fact that at the end of the battle, he force-pushed him away instead of killing him.

I think Dooku looks a little sad or disappointed after he defeats Anakin. I interpreted the look as coming from professional respect. ("I would as soon destroy a stained glass window as kill an artist such as yourself, but since I can't have you following me . . .")

Also- where was that final strike against Obi-Wan (the one Anakin lept forward to block) aimed?

It looked to me like Dooku was aiming to cut him in half.

JediHunterCommand wrote:

It developed out of swordfighting, of course, but a modern fencer would be useless in a real swordfight. Too much emphasis on form, too many restrictions and rules. In a real fight, you go for your opponent any way you can.

Not all fencing styles are so confining, and not all fencers are so inflexible. A person with the right personality type can transfer formal training to the street just fine, especially if he's studied more than one style.

We are not talking about me here.

/Edit

On weaknesses in Ani's AOTC fighting:

I'm going to go with the same weaknesses Qui-Gon had.

FWIW, the two-sabers-crossed-over-the-head thing Anakin's doing when he loses his green lightsaber is a move from Renaissance fencing. The goal is to catch your opponent's blade in the "X," then hold it away with the outside blade (the one farthest from you) while you bring the inside one down to run him through.

I just watched this scene again (2:06:50-2:06:51), and it looks as if Anakin has misjudged where Dooku's blade's going to be as D. brings it down. Anakin's block is way up over his head, as if he's hoping to catch Dooku's blade just after D. begins his overhead cut. The fact that Dooku actually strikes much lower down may mean that he's closer and/or faster than Anakin thought, or that he changed his blade angle at the last moment--or both. You could count this as a technical error of timing and distance, or as the character flaw(s) of overconfidence/lack of foresight. Anakin has taken a risky stance here--niether of his blades covers any part of his body--before it's certain he needs to. He's lucky that all he lost was a lightsaber.

Dooku lops off his arm by lulling him into a false sense of security--the same thing that Maul did to Qui-Gon. At 2:07:21-2:07:22 Dooku spins and comes around with a high horizontal "decapitation" cut, which Anakin blocks with a more-or-less vertical blade held at shoulder height. At 2:07:22-2:07:23 Dooku spins again, and his blade starts out in a position similar to the previous time. Anakin is obviously expecting another high cut, so he just stands there, figuring his current position wil do.

Instead, Dooku brings his blade downward and starts a low-to-high diagonal cut that's going to hit Anakin about 18" lower than he expected. This is the second time Dooku's drawn Anakin's guard way up and then struck lower, beneath Anakin's blade coverage. So if you're ever in a lightsaber duel choreographed by Nick Gillard and your opponent looks like he's going to do the same thing twice in a row, watch out.

One way to deal with the problem Anakin faces at the start of 2:07:23 would be to do what Obi-Wan did earlier: drop to one knee and pull his blade in closer. That would neutralize the lower/faster than expected thing. Instead, he seems to panic when he realizes that

 

Ophelia

It's an interesting thought that he might have wanted to preserve Anakin "undamaged," as Vader might have said.

Maybe this is on an order from Sidious, who obviously has plans for Anakin.

It looked to me like Dooku was aiming to cut him in half.

Indded, I thought of this yesterday when I happened to catch AOTC on TV (still have yet to go slowmo *sigh*). It seems to me that, by this point, Dooku is a little fed up with all of this and has let his Dark Side powers kind of take over more. By the time Yoda gets there, he doesn't seem worried in his old ties to the Jedi anymore- he only wants to show off his awesome power and is mad.

Anakin has taken a risky stance here--niether of his blades covers any part of his body--before it's certain he needs to. He's lucky that all he lost was a lightsaber.

I agree- it's his style to try to do something really impressive to win a duel. It's much different than Obi-Wan's style- wearing the enemy down; or Mace's style- quickly dispensing of the enemy without a lot of flare.

Instead, he seems to panic when he realizes that Dooku's not doing what he thought he was doing.

And here, of course, is why Anakin is not the amazing swordsman he could be. Sure, he's got a lot of natural ability (shown wonderfully by Hayden), but he doesn't have the patience or wisdom to be great. The reason Obi-Wan loses to Dooku isn't because of a lack of foresight or a bad move, really, but simply being a less skilled fighter than Dooku. Anakin has the ability to be good enough to beat Dooku, I believe, but he doesn't apply himself. This is something I hate- people with ability who don't apply themselves when other people have to work really hard to do the same thing. Just goes to show that hard work can outweigh sheer talent.

Pity they couldn't work together when they went after Dooku. They'd have kicked his shiny hienie.

Indeed they would have. Too bad Anakin's a little rash

I have a question- does Dooku's curved lightsabre effect his fighting at all? Does he have it for any function, or just because it looks cool?

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

solojones,

I disagree. I believe that Obi Wan does have the ability to beat Dooku now that he's come up against his style. It clearly states in Dooku's databank entry on the OS that Dooku uses a style of fighting not used any longer by many Jedi. Obi Wan learns from every experience and he will change his style to better counter Dooku's style.

Just goes to show that having the highest midichlorian count in the galaxy doesn't make you smarter or a better person.


And Obi Wan is more than just "competent". Please.

 

I have a question- does Dooku's curved lightsabre effect his fighting at all? Does he have it for any function, or just because it looks cool?

I think the slight curve is to enable him to thrust straight more easily.Having said that, the way he uses it two-handed completely nullifies this advantage.

I think the whole idea behind giving him a sabre hilt like that was to show he had a very different, individual style of swordsmanship, but because of the way the duel was cut I didn't really notice much difference between his sword-play and the other Jedis'.

The Jedi tend to use their sabres like a Japanese katana, which uses the cutting edge for the primary attack, and may be used one or two handed depending on what's needed.European fencing, which Dooku's style was supposed to resemble, uses the point to attack (that's an oversimplification I know, but I'm tired) and is always one-handed.As Ophelia has pointed out, lightsaber combat is more like stick-fighting than sword fighting and both edge and point are equally good.

What I'd like to know is what that thing on the front of Dooku's saber is?Maybe the hilt doubles as a back-scratcher?

 

Edits: spelling

Okay, I was on vacation for several days and then came home to no power, so I missed a lot of the discussion around here.

solojones wrote:

It seems that lightsabres tend to somewhat adhere to one another with all that energy and whatnot, even if only briefly. I'm not sure you really could just slide one against the other if you wanted to. There might be too much resistance.

That's a really cool idea. FWIW, my iaido sensei taught us that if we wanted to bind an opponent's blade we should smack our blade edge really hard into his. That way the two blades actually cut into each other and kind of lock together--or "adhere," if you will. The goal is to prevent the kind of slidy maneuver Dooku uses on Obi-Wan.

There is a collection of really cool essays on lightsaber physics out there, some of which talk about how a lightsaber blade could be plasma contained in a magnetic field. This one mentions the possibility of magnetically repelling an opponent's lightaber blade, but not attracting it: http://www.exn.ca/starwars/plasmasaber.cfm. There's also a really unromantic section where they talk about how all it would take to stop a Jedi is a kitchen magnet, but let's just ignore that bit, shall we?

I have a question- deos Dooku's curved lightsabre effect his fighting at all? Does he have it for any function, or just because it looks cool?

I think Doug Chiang answered that question in one of the Ask the Jedi Council installments. As I recall, he based the hilt shape on that of some obscure real-world weapons (from India maybe?) but he didn't have a specific function in mind.

The curved hilt reminds me of the mutant sword/pistol combinations that were briefly fashionable in the 18th century. There are a surprising number of these things in museum collections, and I've got to believe it's because they were incredibly impractical and no one ever actually used them.

So basically, as far as I know, the curved hilt is a fashion statement. Maybe it keeps Dooku's cape hooked out of the way so he doesn't have to do that telling, flip-the-robe-away-from-the-lightsaber thing. Or maybe it's a disability accommodation--Dooku's got arthritic hands and it's easier for him to grip a curved handle. I'm sure it's got a purpose. Yeah.

Regarding honour's post from waaaaay back on 8/9: I agree that young Obi-Wan's random lightsaber twirls are a sign of, um, youthful exuberance. (That sounds better than downright silliness, which would also be appropriate given that one particularly ill-advised twirl gets him kicked in the head.)

I rewatched the TPM fight and did recognize some iscrema-type moves, which basically involve holding the hilt at a center point in space while rotating the tip around to make attacks at various angles. I'm not sure that describes it well . . . imagine your hand at the center point of a clock face and your opponent's shoulder and hip being at 2 and 4 o'clock, respectively. If you aim a blow at his shoulder and he blocks, you can just snap your stick around and go for his hip.

By contrast, every sword style I'm familiar with prescribes straight cuts instead of curving whacks, presumably because it's easier to get the blade to bite deeply that way. This explains some of the moves that puzzled me in TPM, which earlier had looked like the Worst. Circle Parries. Ever. It still doesn't explain why the three principals persist in attacking each other's blades instead of one another.

To give you an idea of what I mean by this, imagine I have a lightsaber held way up over my head. No part of my body is covered by my blade. Where do you attack? My knees? My stomach? My head? No! You lift your own lightsaber way up and whack my blade, which is about two feet away from any of my body parts. Why? I have no idea.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do this to Maul's blades a lot, and at first I thought maybe one Jedi was trying to knock Maul's weapon aside to create an opening f

 

Dooku often seems to employ a very circular, almost ritualistic series of moves when he is on the defense.

When attacked by Anakin with two sabres, he fends off the attacks with his lightsabre held just in his right hand, twisting his wrist around to parry the strikes.

When later fighting Yoda, Dooku takes this to a further level. While turning his offense almost exclusively to low chops, he keeps up this whirling screen style of defense to try to provide as much cover as possible as quickly as possible. Because Yoda is such a skillful opponent there may be times when it is extremely difficult to exactly predict where his attacks will land, so Dooku adopts this circular defensive style to raise his chances.

 

Wow, so much to reply to


Honour

I disagree. I believe that Obi Wan does have the ability to beat Dooku now that he's come up against his style. It clearly states in Dooku's databank entry on the OS that Dooku uses a style of fighting not used any longer by many Jedi. Obi Wan learns from every experience and he will change his style to better counter Dooku's style.

But he doesn't beat him. That was my point.

Just goes to show that having the highest midichlorian count in the galaxy doesn't make you smarter or a better person.

Completely agree there though. Anakin has tons of potential, but Obi-Wan's a better Jedi and a better person in general.




Soitcomestothis

I think the whole idea behind giving him a sabre hilt like that was to show he had a very different, individual style of swordsmanship,

Which would explain why he had left the Jedi Order. He, like Qui-Gon, probably disagreed with their ways a lot. That's probably where it rubbed off on Qui-Gon. But not on Obi-Wan because of his different personality.

but because of the way the duel was cut I didn't really notice much difference between his sword-play and the other Jedis'.

It really is a shame

The Jedi tend to use their sabres like a Japanese katana, which uses the cutting edge for the primary attack, and may be used one or two handed depending on what's needed.

But it would be different because there's no cutting edge to a lightsaber?

both edge and point are equally good.

When your blade is a laser beam, I guess so




Ophelia



That's a really cool idea.

Why thank you. My first one ever!

http://www.exn.ca/starwars/plasmasaber.cfm.

Thansk for the link

There's also a really unromantic section where they talk about how all it would take to stop a Jedi is a kitchen magnet, but let's just ignore that bit, shall we?




Or maybe it's a disability accommodation--Dooku's got arthritic hands and it's easier for him to grip a curved handle. I'm sure it's got a purpose. Yeah.

Because they don't have the science in the GFFA to cure that

To give you an idea of what I mean by this, imagine I have a lightsaber held way up over my head. No part of my body is covered by my blade. Where do you attack? My knees? My stomach? My head? No! You lift your own lightsaber way up and whack my blade, which is about two feet away from any of my body parts. Why? I have no idea.

Hmm indeed interesting. Something I'll take note of upon my careful watching. Which, yeah, is still pending

Maybe it also explains the TPM "attacking the blade" problem. Obi-Wan is not deliberately whacking Maul's blade, for instance--it's just that Maul knew Obi-Wan would attack there, and already had his blade in place.

rotating your hand in a circle like that also stretches out your wrist muscles, which is a good thing to do before sparring with someone.

I do this with bats when I'm warming up to hit. It gets the blood flowing in my arms, and it's fun


DamonD

When later fighting Yoda, Dooku takes this to a further level. While turning his offense almost exclusively to low chops, he keeps up this whirling screen style of defense to try to provide as much cover as possible as quickly as possible. Because Yoda is such a skillful opponent there may be times when it is extremely difficult to exactly predict where his attacks will land, so Dooku adopts this circular defensive style to raise his chances.

I can't really tell what goes on with the Yoda fight. One I really need slowmo on

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

solojones,

My point is that Obi-Wan will have learned from fighting Dooku and adjust his style for the next time around (if there is one) and in dealing with other opponents. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I can't wait for the McGregor Hyperspace chat. Hopefully he'll provide some hints about whether George Lucas is planning on turning Obi-Wan into a complete chump in E3.

 

Oh, right honour. I think Obi-Wan has the ability to beat Dooku now, but in AOTC he knows that he has to be careful and watch Dooku's style. However, I think he realises he can't beat Dooku on his own at that point, which is why he tells Anakin he needs him. But now that he's seen Dooku in action, I'm sure he could beat him in the future. I hope he does

I am also eagerly looking forward to a Ewan webchat.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

I have to say, I love the way Yoda fights

Half of it involves untilizing his small size to spin, twist and generally leap around to disorientate. The other half is pure misdirection. Yoda definitely seems to be one of those fighters that is incredibly hard to predict, he really uses his size and speed as a big advantage.

He's also one strong Jedi too, judging from the way he can lock blades with such a bigger guy like Dooku.

 

solojones wrote:

I am also eagerly looking forward to a Ewan webchat.

[face_shocked] Is this purely speculative at this point, or is this gonna happen? If so, when?!

Re the actual thread topic:

I finally watched the lightsaber battles from ANH and ROTJ again the other night. First of all, I can never again complain about Ewan McGregor's slouchy dueling posture, because Sir Alec does the exact same thing. Apparently, Obi-Wan has had bad fighting posture for 60 years. Yoda probably warned him when he was a wee youngling: "If slouching like that you do not stop, stick that way your spine will." But did he listen? Oh, noooooooo. Mr. Reckless knew better.

Second, Luke does too have a lightsaber style. It's very functional and straightforward--perfectly good, with no fancy extras. It is the Howard Johnson's of lightsaber styles. It suits him.

It also goes well with the ROTJ style of fighting in general, which has a nice, sensible way about it. When Luke is open low, Vader strikes low. When Vader is open high, Luke strikes high. (Imagine the logic of it!) I like the fact that they spend some time just circling and stalking each other, as if waiting for the other to move first. That's a tactic I've seen a lot of in RL, and it felt like a nice touch of realism. (Not that there aren't real fencers of the St. Ewan/Our Lady of Perpetual Motion school of swordsmanship.) We haven't seen that kind of pause in the action in the PT lightsaber battles so far, and that makes the Luke/Vader battle seem kind of special.

Vader's style has been stripped down considerably since his days as Anakin Skywalker. All that wacky inventiveness is gone, which means he doesn't make doofy mistakes, but then, he doesn't make any creatively brilliant moves either. (I haven't talked yet about the weird way he traps Dooku's blade and almost pokes him in AOTC.) Instead, it looks to me like Vader's style is all about physical force. (No pun intended.) I thought he seemed stiff and uninspired, too--like a beating machine instead of a swordsman. (He's not exactly Brian Boitano in ANH either, but I though his movements looked more fluid and natural.) Thanks to Krash for pointing out that Anakin also "swings for the fences" with every blow. That's got to be the only resemblence between the two incarnations of Skywalker the Elder. (Well, okay, Anakin baits Dooku into following him under a dark overhang, and Vader drives Luke underneath one. So we know that Anakin/Vader likes low ceilings and mood lighting.)

Earlier, somebody mentioned that they thought Luke had picked up Vader's style. "Dark Side Luke" does mimic Vader's tactics a little with all that closing and clinching, but I don't really see them as being similar as fighters. Luke fights like a . . . I don't know, "plumber" sounds sort of pejorative. He's just got a very workmanlike, "get in, get the job done, get out" sort of philosophy. He reminds me a little of old Obi-Wan in that way. Nothing about Vader suggests craftsmanship to me in any way. I keep coming back to machine-like imagery for him. (Yeah, yeah, "twisted and e-ville," etc.) Luke and Vader just have very different ways of moving, and, it seems to me, entirely different approaches to battle. The two similarities I saw were the simplicity of their styles (relative to the PT Jedi) and the tendency to go for maniacal, over-the-head banging when they get mad.

One other thing about Luke: somehow he managed to pick up a collegiate fencing stance and style of advancing that I don't think we've seen any other Jedi use. (Okay, Dooku may have briefly used the long "L" stance, but he sure didn't use those short little collegiate fencing steps.) Luke also uses a two-handed grip when he's doing this, which is just weird. Usually, a long stance goes with a one-handed grip, and a shoulder-width stance goes with a two-handed grip. I bet Yoda never taught him that. I bet Luke got that combination from TV. Oh--and Luke's got really nice fencing posture--very

 

Good stuff, ophelia

When Luke is open low, Vader strikes low. When Vader is open high, Luke strikes high. (Imagine the logic of it!)

How revolutionary!

We haven't seen that kind of pause in the action in the PT lightsaber battles so far

True, but the smaller pauses during the PT battles can also be interesting. I think Lucas and his choreographers still like these moments of drama, but have made them smaller.

I particularly like Qui-Gon's pause and expression when he breaks away from Maul, before the final series of attacks that fatally wounds him. He has a look of both concern and almost resignation on his face, fully aware that his stamina is letting him down.

Obi-Wan also gets a good expression after Maul cartwheels over a low strike, with a slightly wild-eyed but increasingly worried look that suggest's Kenobi is also running out of ideas.

And from AOTC, one last one I like Anakin's dramatic stances and expression when leading Dooku into the darkness.

Now, on to the OT...

I know that all of the lightsabre duels were arranged by the stunt co-ordinator, Peter Diamond. I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Diamond once before at a convention, and he seemed a really nice guy.

Anyway, Diamond had quite a bit of experience of various forms of swordplay over a long career in stunts, and also brought onboard Bob Anderson for ESB and ROTJ. Anderson was a world-class fencer and has had a long career in movies himself that still continues to this day. Like the swordplay in the LOTR films? Bob is in charge of all the swordplay in those films, even at the age of 80.

I've managed to track down a long quote from Anderson regarding his duties in the SW films :

In the spring of 1979, between retirement from the British Fencing circle and his coming to Canada, he was working on The Empire Strikes Back. By 1980 Anderson was to appear on movie screens around the world through most viewers didn?t know it was him, after all the credits said David Prowse was playing Darth Vader, the dislikeable, vengeful leader of the Rebel Forces. In one scene, aboard Cloud City, Vader and Luke Skywalker, played by Mark Hamill engaged in a lazer sword fight. To prepare for the colorful scene, stunt co-ordinator Peter Diamond and stunt doubles men, Anderson and Colin Skeaping worked with Hamill and Prowse to hone their fencing skills. Special artwork was done to add the space age complexion to the action. Carbon-fibre blades were used with photo-reflective paint and individual artwork was done on each negative to draw in the lazer effect, says Bob. One problem was that Prowse, an aspiring but unsuccessful candidate for the 1960 British Olympic weightlifting team, couldn?t fence, not well, anyway, according to Anderson. "Pete was the fight arranger for the film and they needed somebody rather tall who could get into his costume of Darth Vader. I?m six-foot-one, but Darth Vader (Prowse) is six-foot-five, so I had to wear lifts and had my uniform built up so eventually there was not a lot of difference. "He, (Prowse) got the job because he was supposed to be able to fence, but he couldn?t, I worked with him for a long time but we weren?t able to make him good enough for the part. I doubled for him, and Peter and I worked out the fight sequences. What you see is Mark Hamill and myself. Mark is very good, I trained him." Skeaping, who had a Phys. Ed. Background from Britain?s St. Luke?s College, did a lot of the dangerous scenes, remarks Anderson. "But he didn?t double Mark for the sword fight because Mark developed into a better swordsman than Colin. Mark and I did the sequence from start to finish."

Anderson sits back in the chair behind his desk in the CFA offices, laughing lightly before saying "It?s the first time I?ve doubled the "baddy" and won."

 

ophelia,

Obi-Wan may let himself get kicked in the head but as Qui-Gon said, "He is headstrong" -- apparently in more than just the 'self-willed and obstinate' meaning of that word. It's Anakin/Vader who ends up the emotional, mental and physical retard (wink).


As for the Ewan web chat, Rick McCallum said last week that McGregor would probably do a chat in a few weeks.

 

Just as well Obi-Wan's headstrong. Probably punchy now, too.