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Rocky M, NC Philosophical Debate on Religion **Enter At Your Own Risk**

Discussion in 'South East Regional Discussion' started by Lodreh, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. ForceTheologian

    ForceTheologian Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2004
    If I didn't repeat the 7th grade due to failing English and not going to summer school, I would have graduated w/ Lodreh. Oh, well, still graduated in '98.
     
  2. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    I am not for or against Bush or Kerry. However....

    I hate the persona that Bush tries to give off. This whole "crusader" is getting old and it makes him look bad in the eyes of other nations.

    What happened to the separation from church and state? Officials talk about this and remove statues and monuments of the 10 commandments and then they turn around and vote against abortion because of religious issues. What in the world is wrong with this picture?

    We really need an ass-kicker in Washington, one that has not been paid off. A shame....
     
  3. Minacia_Brightstar

    Minacia_Brightstar Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    I'd like to make a point about the separation of Church and State. In modern times, we have misinterpreted the meaning (or changed it to serve our own ends).

    When the founding fathers dreamed up the whole separation of Church and State, they did not mean that religion could not be discussed by our leaders, featured in government monuments, or be a part of our Pledge of Allegiance or patriotic songs. Think about it...even our money has "In God We Trust" stamped on it.

    From the Dark Ages until about the time America became a bona fide country, the Church hiearchy actually had some say in how govenments functioned. Think back to the Middle Ages. Popes often commanded Kings of sovereign nations to do his bidding, or he would excommunicate them and put their countries under interdict (people would not be able to hold weddings, funerals, or any other religios-based ceremony). In the Middle Ages, this was considered a very, very bad thing.

    As time went on, Church officials continued to have some sway over secular governments. So, when our forebears began drafting our constitution, they decided that there would be a separation of Church and State. At that time, that simply meant that officials of the church would have no control over the secular government. It did NOT mean that all religious symbolism should be wiped from every public building and every corner of society except churches.

    Several years ago (well, probably more like 30 or so years ago), people decided that the separation of Church and State meant that kids shouldn't pray in schools, say the Pledge of Allegiance in schools, and that the 10 commandments should not be displayed in a government building.

    While I am a Christian, I am not devout, so don't think I'm coming at this from a uber-religious standpoint.

    Okay. I'm done now. ;)
     
  4. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    While I'd like to agree with you Miss Brightstar... your perception seems a bit flawed. Keep in mind our founding Fathers also believed in Religious freedom for all. Freedom from persecution and harassment. I would argue that there needs a complete separation of church and state as well.

    However, my stand point is based on not wanting a biased government cater to one group over another. One thing I think our government needs to understand is you can not legislate morality. If the government would just take a step back and stop all legislation based solely on a moral perception then a lot of these issues would not become fanatical crusades for a select minority.

    Just a few quick thoughts on a Wednesday afternoon.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  5. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    However, this country was founded by Christians, and I am unaware of any other religion that was a part of this country when it was founded. God and religion are tied in very closely not only with the founding of the great nation, but as a part of our very core.
     
  6. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Times changes my friend... The point I would make is how can you say everyone is free to believe in whatever they want then force "Christian" principles on them in the form of laws? Simply, if this is truly the land of the free then allow people to decide for themselves what is right and wrong ( morality )... and have the government legislate what legal or illegal ( law ).

    Laws should be in place to protect a people's rights to choose... not to make those moral decisions for them.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  7. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Your right this country was founded by Christians. These are those same Christians that stole the land from the Indians. They are the same Christians that bought and used people as slaves. The same Christians who wrote about freedom yet they had slaves of their own.

    "Religion is the opium of the masses." ?Karl Marx

    Religion has never played a part in what happens. The reason why religion has never been a factor is because religions on all levels speak about what people should and should not do. Murder is against the creed of almost every religion that I have read and studied about. One of the driving forces in this world is those people who use religion as a tool to guide sheep to do their will. Perfect example of this is Osama Bin Laden.

    How many Indians, Negro, Asians and other foreign people have we destroyed just because of our own agendas? We killed thousands of Indians during the Trail of Tears. We have killed thousands of Negro by the way of lynching. We have harmed and killed many Asians during the time of World War II by the way of concentration camps and dropping 2 bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We have been the tools of the devil many times.

    No matter how you try to decorate the cake, the icing is still sin. This country was founded by sin. I can understand the problems that some of the other nations have with us. I think if we as a nation really sat back and looked at our past we could see that we have wronged many, and the few we have helped do not justify the number of people we have destroyed.

    As for this war on terror, don?t think for one second that any of those bastards in Washington are for this war if they didn?t feel they would get something in return. That is what it is truly about, what we will get in return. Land of Christians?. Don?t make me laugh.


    I am not for or against any religion. I feel that people should believe in whatever they feel they should. I do not hate any religion; I in return respect all organizations and personal spiritual needs. If this offended any of you, then I am glad because maybe you can do something about it and be vocal against the abuse we as a country allow to continue.
     
  8. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Try not to lose yourself for the face vaule of what people right. However, look deeper into the meaning and when and how a person wrote what he did. The founding fathers never ment freedom the way we see freedom today.

    When Thomas Jefferson wrote what he did. Never did he mean freedom of all people. The freedom he spoke about was that of the crown. Freeing Americans from the tyranny of England.

    I find it so amusing that this idealistic man, this visonary, had slaves of his own. How ironic, that he wanted freedom when he would not give freedom to his own people. Bloody hypocrites... most politicians are. Remember this during election time......
     
  9. Minacia_Brightstar

    Minacia_Brightstar Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    "However, my stand point is based on not wanting a biased government cater to one group over onother."

    I completely agree that the government shouldn't cater to one group over another. However, the separation of Church and State is often used to trample on Christian values. So, in a sense, Christians are being targeted over everyone else.

    Okay, so maybe that's a bit extreme. I just trying to make a point. But, instead of using a statement of opinion, as I just did. I'll use a real-life example.

    Back in December, I heard the following story on the radio that made me pretty angry. Since I heard it over the airwaves, I have no place to which to point you to get the whole story. But I will recount it here as I remember it.

    The firemen of a small firehouse in Florida put up a Christmas tree for display in their firehouse. A lady that lived in the neighborhood in which the firehouse was located complained, saying that the Christmas tree was a Christian symbol and not being a Christian she was highly offended. She complained to local fire officials and other members of the local government that since the Christmas tree was located in a facility run by the local authorities that the tree had no place there and that to have it there was offensive to her. As a result, the firemen had to dismantle their Christmas tree.

    In this case, the separation of Chuch and State clause was abused, in my humble opinion.


    EDIT: Yes, Mordtat, some Christians have done terrible things. But if you have read enough history, you'll see just as many atrocities committed by members of other religions. Christianity does not hold a monopoly on violence.

    But, just as all Muslims, Jew, etc. are not to blame for those atrocities, all Christians are not responsible for all the atrocities committed by their comrades.

    2nd EDIT: Also, almost every country was founded in violence, greed, and war. Unforturnately, that is the way of the world and that will probably continue to be the way of the world. The United States, for all its failings (past and present), is still the best country in the world, IMHO. And my better half thinks so, as well...and one of his ancestors, who was a Cherokee Indian chief, was involved in the Trail of Tears.
     
  10. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    There were many religions in the building of this country.

    Here is a short list of what you could have found:

    Jews
    Protestants
    Catholics
    African religions
    Perhaps even Asian and other Middle Eastern religions.

    The above mention are what I know were here during the time of creating an American Nation.

    However, Christian ideals are the most influencing, thus many slaves are converted from their African ideals and so were many others.


    """"
    I am aware of that fact. However, many Americans play the card of "Innocent." They think or do not think we have never done anything wrong against others. I was only stating that many Christians have done horrible deeds, and it was not just the Crusades.

    I have read enough history to have a firm grip on the situation at hand. One of the classes I was involved in was called World Crisis. The class covered mostly the problems in the Middle East. It involved the start of the 50 years war between Israel and the nation of Palestine. It also covered what part we as Americans played in many of the problems over in the Middle East. Also, why there is such hatred between many Muslim countries and their nation towards us.

    Also, I have taken a few religion courses, and the world religion class, really opened my eyes to why this world is so screwed up as it is. I could go on and on but I rather not write any more Novels if it does not pertain to a class grade.

    Speaking of which my classes start back the 24th of this month and here is the current work load.

    CIS110F Computer Concept and apps MWF
    ECO101C Principles of Microeconomics MWF
    HIS202A United States Since 1877 MWF
    HIS330D Asia MWF
    POL301L Comparative Govt of W Nations TR
    PSY325 Psych of Childhood & Adolescence TR

    Major Teaching and Social Studies
    Minor Political Science


     
  11. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    I find it rather amusing how easy it is to use religion as a tool to get people to do what you want. Wow, lynching in the name of God the Father....

    Makes me wonder why God didn?t stop all of those murders.... I mean even the law enforcement allowed many of these deaths to go unpunished. There is no excuse for such behavior....

    I bet those same people went to church that next day, I bet they felt good about what they did, as if they did Heaven and God a service.

    This leads me to believe that God is either non-existent or has forsaken us. I mean why else would bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.

    However, even though I am a realist when it comes to a lot of these issues, I still believe in God, and I pray that there is something to all this madness.

    Sorry for my ranting but when people fling BS about current issues, I like to throw my two cents in. (Been listening to the news too much as of late.)
     
  12. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    You would think that the groups:
    Jews
    Muslims
    Christians

    Would be best friends....

    So much in common, so much history between the groups. I mean Yahweh, Alah and God are all the same....

    *sigh*

    We are all brothers and sisters of the same God, yet a few minor differences and we are willing to kill one another. We as a human race can do better than that.
     
  13. Minacia_Brightstar

    Minacia_Brightstar Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    One person's BS is another person's ultimate truth. ;)

    In all seriousness, Mordtat, I agree with you that religion has often been used, and is still used, as a tool to sway the masses. However, most religions have done some great things, too...you just don't hear about the good things as much...and when humans decide to be destructive, we go about it in a much more obvious way that we go about doing good.

    My earlier point was simply that the separation of Church and State is misinterpreted by many, and purposely misconstrued and misused by others.

    And I too wonder why we can't all just get along.
     
  14. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Miss Brightstar in your above example with the woman offended by the Christmas Tree... I can only offer a hypothetical.

    Would you be offended if you passed your local Fire station and there was an inverted cross painted on the side of the building? Or an inverted pentagram? The point is most people would see the woman's claim as silly... however, to her that image was disturbing enough to complain about it. I'm quite sure the same could be said about the imagery I just used.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  15. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    *Look of shock and suprise*

    "He desecrated a burning cross!!!" - Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?
     
  16. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Lodreh, the problem is, that someones right to put up an inverted cross or pentagram are more likely to be constitutionally protected than someones right to put up a christmas tree. If your right to offend me is protected under law, then I should have an equal right to offend you.
     
  17. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Exactly. And someone complaining about a Christmas tree being put up, is just being difficult.
     
  18. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    An "equal" right I agree. However, until there is a complete separation it will never be equal. The Christian voice will always be suppressed as long as "In God we Trust" is on the back of money. By having even this one basic Christian ideal already in everyday life, other religious groups are going to vie for that same kind of recognition. By doing so these other groups are going to out voice current Christian issues. If there was a complete separation then all religions could be given the same treatment under the law.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  19. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    However, I am under the belief that this country is predominantly Christian..... dont you think that could affect some of these ideas?
     
  20. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    That is why Riff... you will always hear more out of the Vocal Minority... they cry the loudest because they feel threatened... since you have Christians on the jury they feel guilty about the insinuation of suppressing the little guy so they give in and you see these stupid little victories over the Christmas Tree ( a Pagan Symbol by the way ).

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  21. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Yeah, I was going to touch on the Christmas tree not really being associated with Christianity.
     
  22. Minacia_Brightstar

    Minacia_Brightstar Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2001
    As was I. The practice of decorating trees for the Yule season started in Northern Europe...Germany, I believe, but I could be remembering that wrong.

     
  23. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    I'm not exactly sure on the where, but I think Germany is right. Or somewhere close to it, at least. ;)
     
  24. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    It may not have started out as a Christian tradition.... It has however become part of the Capitalist attempt at using religion to strengthen their bank accounts. Wow, I do love how mankind uses one another to promote their own goals.

    I find that Christmas is a very depressing time of the year for me. It?s not because I see my family but is what I see around me. Everywhere you go, you see Santa Clause or Christmas trees. Each passing year, the scenes of baby Jesus are being replaced by the spirit of greed....

    I hate Christmas and I hate the reasons people celebrate it now days. God must be angry at what has become of his son's birth. Hell Christmas is supposed to celebrate the birth of Jesus and it?s not even close to the time of the year that Jesus was born. What is up with that? Jesus is to be believed that he was born around the time of spring to summer. However, it?s been awhile since I talked about it so I no longer remember the exact date and time.

    RSA EDIT: Don't worry, nothing to extreme going on here. I just edited out WTF, which is now on the list of things that the site owners would rather not have posted on these boards. (And I hope I don't get in trouble for posting it in order to explain this. :p ) Their reasoning is that everyone knows what it means, so it is still technically swearing. I will not go into whether I agree with that or not, but I've gotta do my job as RSA and edit it out when I see it. No harm, no foul. No biggie. :) - Minacia
     
  25. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Christmas has become as commercial as everthing else in this country. However, I think the true spirit of the holiday remains with the majority of folks.
     
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