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Rocky M, NC Philosophical Debate on Religion **Enter At Your Own Risk**

Discussion in 'South East Regional Discussion' started by Lodreh, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 2, 2002
    Maybe for you Wampa boy but I have the inside track and an ace up my sleeve... ;)

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  2. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 14, 2003
    Curious. Most curious.
     
  3. joe-da

    joe-da Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 7, 2002
    but me never expressed interest...
     
  4. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    The Ace is called he owns my soul, thus if I am ordered to take a hit on a person.... I am to do it in a manner of much pain and with no trail of evidence. Beware; I have filled many backyards with my assignments.

    "I didn't kill him. I shot him, the bullets and the fall killed him." -Tom Cruise
     
  5. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Agnostic: Does not commit to the belief or the disbelief of any deity / deities.

    I know our country was founded by Christians for Christians... however, if there is freedom of religion present in this country shouldn't the government take Agnostic as the official stance on things like the pledge of allegiance? or commandments in the court room?

    I admit I'm not very religious but I wanted input to why it would bother someone if these things were removed.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  6. joe-da

    joe-da Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 7, 2002
    Agnostic simply means "not knowing"... ag = not; nostic = knowing
     
  7. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 30, 2002
    I know our country was founded by Christians for Christians... however, if there is freedom of religion present in this country shouldn't the government take Agnostic as the official stance on things like the pledge of allegiance? or commandments in the court room?

    I admit I'm not very religious but I wanted input to why it would bother someone if these things were removed.


    At a most basic level, it is because the sense of entitlement has already been created. Right or wrong, any time you "take something away", you're going to encounter opposition.

    On a more academic level, it's similar to the right to bare arms argument. A lot of people feel that the founding fathers never meant for things to be take to such extreme levels. When they were writing the Constitution, they were concerned with separation of church and state because of the impact it had had on other nations. The fear of excommunication kept many countries subject to mandates of the Catholic Church. While other countries (like the UK) were facing a lot of civil strife due to competing sects of Christianity. I can't ever recalling seeing a valid argument that the founding fathers had any type of religion in mind other than Judaism or Christianity.
     
  8. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 2, 2002
    Agnostic simply means "not knowing"... ag = not; nostic = knowing

    In it's literal sense... yes, you are right Joe-da... I used a more focused definition for this discussion. Though to be fair when pertaining to religion agnostic means 'One can never prove the existence (or true nature) of God or disprove it. The definition I gave above was not wrong just more focused :).

    On a more academic level, it's similar to the right to bare arms argument. A lot of people feel that the founding fathers never meant for things to be take to such extreme levels. When they were writing the Constitution, they were concerned with separation of church and state because of the impact it had on other nations.

    I see your point... either our fore-fathers were leagues beyond everyone else in their time or they were simple farmers trying to do the 'right thing' for their people. I hold with the latter... which means given today's society with all of these freedom's including religion shouldn't our government do the 'right thing' for all our citizens and make a change that will insure everyone is protected and treated fairly under the law. I realize that by doing this you step on a good majority of the population's toes but wouldn't that be the 'right thing'? or am I just thinking too logically for our society ;).

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  9. joe-da

    joe-da Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 7, 2002
    Taking a word further away from its etymological meaning does not necessarily equal more focus - usually the contrary, where more personal prejudices and outlooks creep in.

    And also, I didn't say your definition was "wrong" - just not in purest form.

    People commonly use "misogyny" as the hatred of people (male & female), but it is actually the hatred of women, for example.

    And no, one could never "prove" to someone that God exists - such is taken on faith, kind of like philosophers Thomas Aquinas & Boethius wrote about in the "middle ages". Likewise, one can't really "prove" a chair or table or anything else exists, on a metaphysical scale or what have you. There are those that believe this whole "reality" is not real.
     
  10. Minacia_Brightstar

    Minacia_Brightstar Jedi Youngling star 5

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    May 23, 2001
    There are those that believe this whole "reality" is not real.

    Does this mean we're in the Matrix? :p

    Sorry. I just had to infuse my special brand of lame humor for a moment. ;)
     
  11. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 2, 2002
    There is no spoon. :D
     
  12. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 14, 2003
    Whoa. Deep thoughts from the wampa.
     
  13. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    first of all, i dont think there are enough hours in the day to fully post everything on my opinion of religion, just ask jim
    but to respond to lodreh
    no matter what you will be thinking to logicaly for society, the state of things that the government keeps are wholy illogical. its an attemp to keep americas population ignorant to the truth of things, which in turn keeps us safe more or less.
    What is necessarily right for the whole is not necessarily right moraly
    The opposition from the general masses would outway the benefit of such an act.
    or as Mr. Spock would say
    the needs of the many outway the needs of the few, or the one.
    considering myself not a citizen of this country, i no longer care about the seperation of church and state thing, but, for a country founded on christianity for the free practice of christianity, it sure has strayed from its original purpose just to accomodate people that dont support what is right. i mean isnt such opposition the reason that this country was founded in the first place with reguards to england? if they dont like it, the opposers can find a new country
    :[face_sigh]:
    but since we are so kind to accomodate such opposition and adjust accordingly, this country is nothing near what i believe the founding fathers were hoping.
    ...
    i feel a wave of riticule about to hit any minute
     
  14. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    You're not a citizen of this country?
     
  15. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    ive been reading the first couple of pages so i decided to post about...0.7% of my views on religion as a whole.
    first of all, to lodreh and his 2 out of 3 thing

    god is all knowing, he knows everything that has happened, he knows everything that will happen, he knows everything that is happening. He knows what choices you will make, and the effect of all choices considered.
    he is all forgiving, no one sin will not be forgiven IF YOU ASK, he holds you to them untill such time. he will, although not forgive you unless you have a SINCERE heart on the matter. for instance, you cant say: hmm i can sleap with this girl even though i know its wrong because i can ask for forgiveness. also another one that is not often talked about but im sure at least some of us are guilty of ( i know i am):
    i know this is wrong but im going to convince myself it is right and then when i come back to the realization that its wrong i will be sincere in my asking forgiveness. the latter being the more difficult to deal with (for me anyways)
    god is all powerfull because he can do anything. i mean come one, he did create the world with his will alone (if you believe it or not affects your perspective of his power), and he can see everything, past, present, or future. he can do anything he wants because he has the power.
    he can easily be all three, in fact, it would be illogical to say that he isnt:
    if he wasnt all knowing or all forgiving, he wouldnt be all powerful.
    if he wasnt all powerful or all knowing, how could he be all forgiving.
    if he wasnt all forgiving or all powerful, he wouldnt be all knowing.
    second,
    in my oppinion, im not part of "the church" because of its inability to fulfill me. i can feel the presence of god and when im at any church i have ever been to, i do not feel his presence, only people will bring his presence into a place, and since you will find so many people at church who are just there to "meet chicks/dudes" or "hang out with friends", god would not want to be there, the worship is not sincere.
    i am accepting of people that are agnostic/atheist/etc.
    i know that not everybody is going to accept god, as illogical as it may seem to me, but i dont dislike them for it, im thankfull for the way people are, due to my outlook on life which i will share below.
    lots of "christians" are out there trying to "share" their faith purely for the attention they will get from it, both positive and negative. They are the type of people that fast and make sure everyone knows it:
    pretty much nowaday Pheresies (i dont think i spelled that right but i dont care)
    The way i think about it (and this is to respond to mordtat with reguards to his anger towards all the bad stuff that has happened): everything happens for a reason, good or bad, but the eventual outcome will be better because of it: the end justifies the means.
    for instance (and i know this is taboo):
    my relationship with a certain chick i was with for a while ended suddenly, i expected her to be "the one" and i thought she was perfect, BUT, although i thought this was a mistake of god for a split second, i then remembered who he was and i was happy, even though it hurt i knew that something good would come out of it that outweighed the bad that happened. I now have a much better chick that is way cooler.
    so the point was, dont be angry about anything that has happened, its suposed to be that way, things will turn out good. I dont think it applies to people though, you can be angry that people will give views and not listen to others, that there is so much anger associated with religion, and the blaspheming god to use god to controll people(im particularly angry about those things also)
    and if you realy want a spiritual connection with god, if you sincerely do 100% and are willing to change your life to accomodate him, he will listen and you will connect, im not saying you arent however so please do not take offense to anything i say as there is no offense intended.
    ill stop for now because my fingers are tired
     
  16. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    legaly but not mentaly
    i dont like this country very much, and a lot of people hate me for it, but i dont care
     
  17. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    And no, one could never "prove" to someone that God exists - such is taken on faith, kind of like philosophers Thomas Aquinas & Boethius wrote about in the "middle ages". Likewise, one can't really "prove" a chair or table or anything else exists, on a metaphysical scale or what have you. There are those that believe this whole "reality" is not real.

    The debate on reality can rage for eons... I hold if I can interact with it then it is real.

    I walk into a room see/touch a chair... I 'believe' the room and chair exist and are real. However, once I leave the room does the room and chair still exist and remain real?... I would say that's between the room and chair ;). Seriously though, I 'believe' they will both still exist from my previous interaction with them...

    What the hell am I talking about... oh yeah, semantics. The reason I posted a definition in the first place was avoid confusion as to what I meant by saying 'agnostic'. Which is a mute point and not the bases for my query.

    legaly but not mentaly

    I for one have a great love for this country even with it's problems. That is why I ask these questions of my friends, peers and brothers ( and sisters ). I seek knowledge that would sustain this great nation indefinitely. Mordtat and I discuss politics on a day in day out biases.

    I have a theory that if certain underlying problems or corruption are not righted things will only get progressively worse until the system collapses. So I'm trying to find viable solutions for the country in hopes one day I or someone whom I trust can make these changes for the continued success of this great nation.

    On a side note... I am not very religious due to things I have seen... thought about and done... at one time I desperately wanted to believe... I do not think down or poorly of those that still have faith and at times still admire their resolve... but I have learned that their path is not mine. I will walk my own path of free thought and faith in myself.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  18. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    i will respect your decision, and for lack of time, not challenge it since my sentances are run on and my structure makes what i write hard to decipher, which is completely true:)
    but i do know he is real, you just have to have an "experience" and then hes just like a table in the aspect of reality.
    have a good day
     
  19. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Let me start off by saying, yes, this country has its faults. But let me add to that and say this:

    I am proud to be an American, and there isnt a better country in the world. Period.

    Anywho, you mention having an "experience"? Let me give you a prime example. When both of my sons were born, if you didnt leave that room believing, then somethings wrong with you. That miracle will change you. It is without a doubt the most wonderful thing that has happened to me, and I feel confident it will remain the best thing that happened to me, for the remainder of my life. I thank God every single day for my children, for their health, and for their well being.
     
  20. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    "I do know he is real, you just have to have an "experience" and then he?s just like a table in the aspect of reality."

    Is he real? In reality there is no proof that there is a God. Just because you can have sex with a minor and she doesn't get pregnant does not give validity to the statement that there is a God. However, I would like to say that I believe that there is a God and that there is a plan for us.

    As creatures with the ability to have abstract thought, we like to think that the world was built around us. With that in mind, it is much easier to cope with life if we say that there is some greater purpose for our trials and tribulations. I mean face it, the mind is a wonderful tool and capable of forming alternate realities just to mask our pain. It is a tool of survival. Perhaps God is an illusion of our imaginations and created by people in order to control us. Marx said it best..... "Religion is the opiate of the masses!"


    "If you didn?t leave that room believing, then something?s wrong with you."

    I had an experience once with God. It was during a Baptist youth convention in Carowinds. There was hours of up beat music and inspirational speeches. It was that day that I reestablished my faith and was really into the moment. However, the longer time past the less the event had upon me. With this in mind, perhaps God is nothing more than an adrenaline rush? I don't know but I am only trying to contemplate a subject that can never be explained.

    If there is a God then I am sorry for questioned him. However if there isn't a God then I want you all to know that I care about you guys. You are not only good friends but great people. If I die and the cold abyss of nothing awaits me then it was a pleasure knowing you. If God is real, then I will wait in Heaven or Hell to see the likes of you guys!

    A friend said it best, "I go to Hell for the people and go to Heaven for the Atmosphere."
     
  21. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    well the thing about it is, if he was just a creation of my mind, i would be the craziest person in the world, because i can hear him audibly. i would also have to have some kind of special powers to exercise my will to make things happen. I mean some people believe in coincidences, but i dont, cuz they cant happen like 5 times a day.

    even if he wasnt real, why would you rather take the risk of spending an eternity in a very bad and miserable place over liveing a good life. i mean come on, being a christian moraly all you have to do is what is right, and why wouldnt you want to do that anyways. i just dont understand why people feel offended at the idea of worshiping a god that does only good for you, and why they would want to do bad to people that are only doing what they know is right.

    i cannot prove to you that god is real, only you can come to that realization, but i do commend your efforts of spending the time to think of things to try and make people like me feel bad;you are just putting me through an experience that will only make me a stronger person. god has done so much for me in my life, i would never question anything he did
     
  22. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Mordtat said: Perhaps God is an illusion of our imaginations and created by people in order to control us. Marx said it best..... "Religion is the opiate of the masses!"

    I've always heard this quote used contemptuously. I find this interesting, because Opium has medicinal uses as well. Only when it's abused is it a bad thing.


    Sol said: well the thing about it is, if he was just a creation of my mind, i would be the craziest person in the world, because i can hear him audibly. i would also have to have some kind of special powers to exercise my will to make things happen. I mean some people believe in coincidences, but i dont, cuz they cant happen like 5 times a day.

    I used to work with people like you. No offense, but I'ld suggest professional help.

    Sol also said: i mean come on, being a christian moraly all you have to do is what is right

    Right and wrong are not absolutes. They are subject to perception and social values. Even specific social groups can not always agree on what is right.

    Sol also said: god has done so much for me in my life, i would never question anything he did

    Then you will never grow as a Christian. Only by questioning can we expand our understanding.
     
  23. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    "Even if he wasn?t real, why would you rather take the risk of spending an eternity in a very bad and miserable place over living a good life?"

    So you?re telling me the only real reason you choose to be a Christian is because of the fear of eternal Hell? It is a shame that pastors and other religious leaders preach this and not as much the love of God. They use fear as a way to control you. That goes back to what Karl Marx has been quoted for. Also, the way you worded that doesn't seem like God is that great in my book. I would think as a follower of God, you would do it because you love God not because you fear God.

    "I mean come on, being a Christian morally all you have to do is what is right, and why wouldn?t you want to do that anyways."

    During the crusades, Christians murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslims and non-Christians alike... and at the time that was what being a good Christian was all about. Being right is an opinion and not always true across the board. It?s all about perception my friend. If I went to your house and killed you because my God commanded me then I was being morally right in this circumstance. However, was it right? No, it wouldn't be, not in our society at least. Even then this is a matter of opinion that I have. So what does this really mean? Those in power determine what is right. Perfect example is that early civilizations use to kill children and use their bones and body matter as mortar for walls. That was social acceptable and morally right, so in other words, who do you think you are to tell us what is morally right and wrong. Better why would you ever have someone else tell you how to live your life and not determine it for yourself... Sheep, most people in life are sheep... waiting to be slaughter for those that are willing able to profit from them. Who says these people, the leaders with the ability to control, are the ones who are right?

    Friedrich Nietzsche wrote the book "Antichrist" this book described why Christianity was the bane to society. There are people in this world that are super people. These people are stronger, smarter and have the ability to be the best in the world. He describes Christians as defenders of the meek and those that are not worth saving. Christians builds rules and limits to keep those who are better in check. So in a way think of a Highway. A super person is going 100 mph and a Christian would make a speed limit of 40 in order to have someone who was weak able to compete. Why should we bring the standards of the pathetic up when we could exalt those that could become great? That is part of general basis for this book.

    Also, being a Christian is not about being morally right. Christians are flawed in the eyes of God. To be a Christian you must believe in Jesus as you savior and that he died upon the cross for your sins. Not only this but that he is the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. That is what being a good Christian is all about. In the eyes of God we will sin and we will fall from the grace of God with that in mind we are not moral.... Thus we need the ever saving blood of Jesus.

    "I just don?t understand why people feel offended at the idea of worshiping a god that does only good for you."

    There is no way to prove that he does well for us? There is only faith that he is setting such things in motion. The French are Christians.... Germans are Christians but God didn't prevent millions of people from dieing by the hands of the Germans and nor did he give the French the courage and ability to stand up and fight the Germans... So there is no validity to your statement.

    "And why they would want to do bad to people that are only doing what they know is right."

    Once again you are using perception in this debate. Like the man Yoda said, "You must unlearn what you have learned." To be able to justify and truly understand things you must look at all sides and determine for yourself.


    Now, follow your own path... Even the most rational and educated men were followers in religions. I want to say Albert Einstein was a
     
  24. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    "Also, being a Christian is not about being morally right. Christians are flawed in the eyes of God. To be a Christian you must believe in Jesus as you savior and that he died upon the cross for your sins. Not only this but that he is the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. That is what being a good Christian is all about. In the eyes of God we will sin and we will fall from the grace of God with that in mind we are not moral.... Thus we need the ever saving blood of Jesus."

    BINGO!! Unfortunately, many so called Christians act as if THEIR perfect and do nothing but condemn people and tell them how "bad" they are. All fall short of the grace of God.
     
  25. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    "...but i do commend your efforts of spending the time to think of things to try and make people like me feel bad;you are just putting me through an experience that will only make me a stronger person..."

    If this is all you take away from my statements then you have missed the point of this thread entirely. The only thing I wish to accomplish is getting people to think for themselves. If the act of thinking makes you 'feel bad' then perhaps you are doing something wrong. Maybe you need to question your values and standards... it's ok to do so... by questioning and doing some soul searching yourself you 'know' the answer when someone else ask you, 'Why do you believe?'

    I personally do not feel I should believe in a God who would damn me for eternity just because I question. I have chosen to stand up and live my life the way I see fit.

    **EDIT** I withdrew an unfair statement. Just a reminder no personal attacks are to be made on this thread. Thank you.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
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