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Rocky M, NC Philosophical Debate on Religion **Enter At Your Own Risk**

Discussion in 'South East Regional Discussion' started by Lodreh, Apr 23, 2004.

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  1. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    I've always heard this quote used contemptuously. I find this interesting, because Opium has medicinal uses as well. Only when it's abused is it a bad thing.

    So religion should only be used when in need and in moderation... got it ;).

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  2. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Well, since everyone else is post what they believe I guess I will too.

    1. There is a God.
    2. Any man on the planet who claims to know his will is a liar, a fool, or a lunatic.
    3. There is an after-life. Though I think I find the idea of simply ceasing to exist more comforting.
    4. Science and God are not mutually exclusive.
    5. The bible was written and compiled by men, thus it is fallible. However there is still a lot of wisdom contained within it.
    6. If you do not question your faith it will stagnate.
    7. Even if I'm wrong and there isn't a God, religion still has value as a long as people find comfort in it or it serves society.
    8. Introspection and the denial of the self are the paths to enlightenment.
    9. Acceptance of Jesus and a sincere desire for forgiveness are the two requirements for salvation.
     
  3. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    /sigh #8 & #9... since I'm once again relegated to the depths of Hell... I respectfully ask you to at least pass me the bag of marshmallows :D.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  4. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Lodreh said: So religion should only be used when in need and in moderation... got it

    As a matter of fact, yes...though not in the way you mean it. Most people only use religion as a crutch, something to lean on in times of trouble. While that is a valid use, it's not the only one. Others use religion as a way to avoid thinking for themselves, but it should be used to guide your actions, not define them. And finally, some people use it to their own benefit, usually to justify or validate their fear and hatred of others, but also to increase personal power. To paraphrase Sheppard Book, there's a special level of hell reserved for those types of people.
     
  5. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    A few things I would like to add here...

    Sol, something I want you to understand is this:

    No one here is trying to make you feel bad. Please dont take these discussions in a manner that will make you feel that way. All they are doing is trying to provoke thought, and further discussion, and I believe that is a very healthy thing, as long as its kept civil. Mordtat actually brings up some very valid points, and its something to think about, and thats all he wants you to do. He isnt flaming you, or trying to make you feel bad. Trust me on this one. :) If he wanted to try and make someone feel bad, it wouldnt be any question about it from anyone reading it. :D I am a Christian, and I believe in God. But we are going to make mistakes, and we are going to do it daily. This is part of improving ourselves, I believe. These are just some of the things being pointed out. Mordtat likes to approach things he wants you to think about sometimes with a radical example, but it achieves its purpose and makes you think. Look beyond the way you take it when you read it the first time, and you will find something very interesting there.

    Also, speaking of Mordtat, very good post, brudda. It definetely got the wheels turning in my head. Thats what I enjoy about this board.

    We have a very good size group of people whom are thinkers, questioners, folks that follow their own path, independent minded beings, etc. etc. Its one thing that makes us enjoyable, in my opinion.

    But please dont be offended by things being brought up here, people just want to provoke thought. ;)
     
  6. Drakkor_Knightmoon

    Drakkor_Knightmoon Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2004
    alright heres some of my spill.... Entropy in response to Sol's remark " i dont question God" (that was paraphrased) and your remark was (agian paraphrased) "You have question so you can grow" in the Bible there was a man named Joab, you are probably familiar with his story, but, just in case you arent let me tell you. Joab was a good man and a strong christian. God made some sort of deal with Satan and let satan take everything from Joab his cattle, money, family, and even his health. But, he DID NOT question God he said (paraphrased) "I trust you completely what you do with me is your will" and he was given back Tenfold what he lost so in response to your question, i see differently about questioning God and i do believe that Sol agrees with me.
     
  7. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Then I think you both misunderstand what Entropy said... Questioning your faith is not the same as questioning God's will...

    Example: I have a problem with any religion that wants me to beg for forgiveness just for being born ( original sin ). So I question the practices of that religion and found that is only one of many things I do not like. Therefore, the religion lost it's appeal and I no longer follow that path. Not once did the question of God's will come into play.

    Now if you are saying everything happens because of God's will, then it was God's will that a faith dedicated by him became so indoctrinated that the practices of the faith drove me away. So God does not want me to believe.

    All knowing, all powerful, all forgiving God to Lucifer. "I've got a job for you. No, it's not a good job and it pains me to say it but here it goes. First, you are going to rebel against heaven. You will fail in this endeavor. Then I'm going to sentence you to all eternity in Hell. Yeah I know you were looking a promotion but we are all filled up so I created this position just for you."

    "But God... I will get lonely in this dark foreboding place all to myself."

    "I'll tell you what... I'll send all the people who don't believe and all the sinners who do believe your way."

    "Sweet, party time!"

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~ [i]
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."[/i]>
     
  8. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Drakkor wrote: in the Bible there was a man named Joab...he DID NOT question God

    Job never questioned God? I think you might want to reread chapter 3. But that aside, if you never question things how do you know that it's really God's will? If you don't question, how do you know that you are really serving God instead of someone (or something) else. On November 18, 1978, 913 died because they listened to Jim Jones when he told them it was God's will that they die. God gave us the intelligence to question the world around us. He also gave us the power to choose what path we will take through this world. If everything that happens is the will of God, then why do you question our ability to question?
     
  9. Mordtat

    Mordtat Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2004
    There is little doubt in my mind that people who follow the path of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are following God's will. It is hard to justify this statement when you see people in Israel fighting and killing one another. This sort of thing will make anyone question someone?s faith. I know a few people who have grudges against Muslims that in my opinion are not justified.

    The Islamic radicals that US soldiers are dealing with are not Muslims, they are terrorists. However, these terrorist use the sacred ideals of the Jihad and other practices to promote loyalty in their followers. These people are using a wonderful religion as a weapon against us and others. It is not fair to hate someone when the people you hate are being used as puppets. This sort of thing has happened all over the world and will continue to happen until the end of time. This is how good people can become bad people.

    Also do keep in mind, that many of these countries are poor. A lot of these people do not have the benefits of being part of a wealthy country. So what these terrorist organizations do is provide money and health care for these families that are willing to aid them.

    Example:
    This family of 7 consists of 1 husband, 1 wife who is in their 30s. They have four children that are 15, 12, 8 and 3 years of age. Their total income a month may be 30 us Dollars. The oldest son realizes the problems his family is going through and decided to the only thing he knows that will help. He signs up with a terrorist network that will give his family over 5000 dollars and provide his family with a source of health care. Now this son is called up to do a suicide run in a neighboring city. The boy ends up dieing and his family is taken care of and their son is seen as a martyr,

    Now before you become critical of what is going on in this picture?. Every last one of you would do anything in your power to see that your family does better. If you were in this situation and have lost all hope and you know your family is not going to make it would you consider sacrificing your life in order to give your family a chance? Yes, you would and this is how people become suicide bombers. Islam does not play a part in this other than if you are fighting a holy war for God then you will ascend to Heaven. This is not right. The terrorist organizations lie to their people in order to gain their cooperation. If a Muslim kills an innocent then they are doomed to Hell.

    So when this same young man detonates the bomb on a bus full of kids and women, they now have committed a sin and will be punished by God. I wish people who are so openly critical of other religions would enlighten themselves and expand their knowledge about their world around them, rather than taking events from the media and continue on the path of an ignorant, belligerent son-of-a-gun.

    Not only would you become a better person after reading about other religions but you will also have a greater understanding about the world around you. There are so many different cultures out there that are interesting to learn about. Also, there is a chance that you may find a religion that suits you and your family and there is a chance that after learning more you will have a greater respect for your own religion and others around you.

    Did you know during World War II, Japan invaded China?


    ?Dec. 13, 1937, Nanjing, the capital of China during the war, finally fell to the Japanese.
    The brutalities included shooting, stabbing, cutting open the abdomen, excavating the heart, decapitation, drowning, punching the body and eye with an awl. Thousands of civilians were buried or burn alive, or used as targets for bayonet practice, shot in large groups and thrown into Yangtze River.

    "Not only did live burials, castration, the carving of organs and the roasting of people become routine, but more diabolical tortures were practiced, such as hanging people by their tongues on iron hooks or burying people to their waists and watching them torn apart by dogs."

    "Many soldiers went beyond rape to di
     
  10. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    "...I wonder if we will die before WWIII happens." ~ Mordtat

    Not if I have anything to say about it ;).

    Just kidding, the autarchies committed by other countries will never be thought in public schools due to the way our society is set up. Just like they will never tell you in High School that a large population of Greeks were Homosexual and Bisexual.

    American parents try to keep information like this out of the hands of their children because they fear it will corrupt them or give them an excuse to do similar acts. Again ignorance is bliss.

    I have always been a supporter of more information... educate children... do not hide the truth from them. Children are remarkable in many ways and have the ability to grasp concepts very quickly. Teach them about right and wrong ( morality )... then tell them about what has transpired. Make sure they grasp it... all the while telling them what is socially right and wrong. Preach a policy of understanding instead of hatred... I feel that would make the world a much safer and overall better place.

    ( ADDED THE FOLLOWING BEFORE ANYONE THOUGHT I HAD GONE SOFT )

    ...Well that and eliminating France ;)

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  11. ForceTheologian

    ForceTheologian Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Has anyone seen Saved! yet?

    FT
     
  12. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Define "saved"...

    By reading this thread? During their lifetime? Not sure what you mean...
     
  13. ForceTheologian

    ForceTheologian Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2004
    "Saved!" is the new Mandy Moore/Jena Malone/Mac Culkin movie.

    FT
     
  14. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Has anyone seen Saved! yet?

    No. It's against my religion to see another Macaulay Culkin film ;).

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  15. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    well, i would agree with entropys list almost completely. and there is nothing wrong with questioning faith, i do it on a daily basis. for instance:
    i have come to the conclusion that it is not my place to tell anyone that they are wrong religiosly because everyone has free will and must come to the realization that they need god for themselves, its part of finding yourself. keep in mind that i am not saying that you shouldnt try to help them to a degree.
    though you should never question god.

    i know mordtat isnt trying to make me feel bad on purpose, and i love him as a person....but im still gonna fragg the hell outa' him friday:)
    (or at least try)

     
  16. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    also, the suicide bomber kid:
    he had been brought up that way,
    his view of wright and wrong had been drastically altered, and his emotions were used against him, thus his actions cannot be held against him. i would not blame him for what he did, though i dont condone it.
    god wouldnt blame him either.
    its just like suicide,
    if someone had say... servere depression and they killed themselved, they couldnt be held accountable for it, it was a chemical inballance in their brain, and they have a mental condition. they could not be blamed and thus would not go to hell for it. the ones to blame are the people around him/her for not helping enough. though thats not always the case
     
  17. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    this is a reply to page 15, cuz i didnt think there was anything else but then i looked and there was, and once again..to mordtat:
    I AM SO FREAKIN TIRED OF ME TELLIN PEOPLE WHAT IS RIGHT AND THEN THEY SAY "well such and such people did such and such that was bad"
    THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!
    PEOPLES ACTIONS DO NOT DEFINE WHAT A RELIGION IS!
     
  18. JediRiff

    JediRiff Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Calm down, bro! Go back and read what I said. And seriously, if you are going to get this fired up over religion, maybe you should avoid this thread, and just chat on the other ones.
     
  19. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    I AM SO FREAKIN TIRED OF ME TELLIN PEOPLE WHAT IS RIGHT...

    Like Mordtat plainly pointed out... 'right and wrong' are relative terms. It depends on your perceptions along with your upbringing. Perhaps you should think less in a 'right and wrong' kind of way and not be so judgmental of others.

    ...THEY SAY "well such and such people did such and such that was bad"

    Rehashing history to avoid mistakes of the past is a very good way to learn from those mistakes. "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

    THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!

    ... I could be very cruel and demeaning here... but I'll let this one slide for now.

    PEOPLES ACTIONS DO NOT DEFINE WHAT A RELIGION IS!

    I have to disagree with you here. For example: I have encountered several people while claiming to be Christians lie, steal, cheat, over indulge in alcohol, drugs, premarital/promiscuous sex ( and I'd like to thank those sexy few ).

    Now what does this say about Christianity? I would agree that these people are not in the spirit of the stated religion but they believe in Jesus. They feel as though they are Christians and if they go around saying that they are Christians what is someone who is not a Christian going to think? At best they'll think all Christians are immoral from the few whom they have met. Is that the truth? No. However, to the individual who asked that question it doesn't matter it's their perception of all Christians.

    One whom I'd call a friend brought this quote to mind, "Power without Perception is spiritually useless and therefore of no true value."

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  20. Sol_Badguy

    Sol_Badguy Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2004
    im not being judgemental, you guys are by saying that what a group of christians do is what the whole does. not everyone is perfect but that doesnt mean that you should say christanity is wrong because of hipocrites. i try not to judge people
     
  21. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Actually, NO one is perfect. Thats one of the foundations of Christianity, that we are all born with a nature to sin but that Jesus's death on the cross saved us from having to do all that ritualistic stuff in the Old Testament. Again, thats a big part of some Christians outlook. Some tend to be snotty and preachy all the time, telling others how they had better do this and that but never TRULY looking at themselves. This has definetely turned people away from Christianity and branded it as a religion of hypocrites. Thats why you wont hear me preaching to anyone. I am FULL of faults and/or shortcomings and I need to deal with them before I worry about telling others anything.

    I use my kids as an example of the whole "born in sin" subject. We are all naturally rebelious to a certain degree. I tell my kids not to do things, yet they look RIGHT AT ME and do it anyway. I wonder if God feels the same frustration I do when He looks at us and sees us breaking His commandments? Its no wonder we've had so many hurricanes this year. ;)
     
  22. Lodreh

    Lodreh Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    /sigh "Hear you nothing that I say?"

    Perception is the key. You admit you are flawed. Yet you claim to know 'right from wrong'. Your perception is flawed. Just like the suicide bombers... just like other Christians in the time of the Crusades. By admitting you are flawed there is nothing you can do about it except for accepting it and trying to better yourself. That's it.

    I believe there is a universal truth. I also believe no one... no matter how religious... intelligent... or otherwise qualified will ever 'know ultimate truth'.

    ...that doesnt mean that you should say christanity is wrong because of hipocrites...

    I never said Christianity was wrong. I just said it was not my path. My preconceived perception of most Christians maybe flawed and I accept that. Does it change the way I view my life? No. Have I met Christians whom do not fit into my preconceived notions of Christians? Yes. Friends and family come quickly to mind. Does this change the fact that 'most' Christians I have encountered are exactly as I described? No. Has my perception changed? At one time my perception was the exact opposite... then I met more people.

    As you can see from the above I am not afraid to question my views. I know enough to know that I do not know everything. I accept that what I hold as truth may not be true. I am prepared to live my life as I see fit with no regrets and no questions left unasked. I am a man that is spiritual but not religious. If there is any question you would ask of me then ask. Perhaps you can surprise me and change my perception of you.

    Lod-Reh SaJon ~
    "If you seek knowledge and understanding look to the Force.
    If you seek pain and suffering look no further than me."
     
  23. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    "I am a man that is spiritual but not religious"

    Great way of wording it. Add me to that list.
     
  24. eddie-wan-kenobi

    eddie-wan-kenobi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    A few things I would ask God if we could sit down and have coffee:

    1. Why are some people allowed to suffer such terrible fates? (beheaded terrorist hostages for example)
    2. Is there a bigger plan for me and I missed the boat?
    3. HAVE I made a difference?
    4. Am I raising my kids right?
    5. How can you still love me after all the stupid crap I'v done and am still doing?


    Boy, this thread has really got me thinking.
     
  25. Entropy

    Entropy Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Okay. I'm not God, but I can give you my view on these things.

    1. Why are some people allowed to suffer such terrible fates? (beheaded terrorist hostages for example)

    Because man has free will, and it's a double edged sword. Besides, what earthly fate could even come close to comparing with hell.

    2. Is there a bigger plan for me and I missed the boat?

    Define bigger? Even the least of your actions have the potential to spiderweb into something greater.

    3. HAVE I made a difference?

    There's only two ways to view this. If life has any meaning at all, then you've left your mark on it. If it doesn't then the question is irrelevant.

    4. Am I raising my kids right?

    Are you imparting the values you hold dear and the lessons you have learned? That's about the best any parent can do.

    5. How can you still love me after all the stupid crap I've done and am still doing?

    The same way you can still love your family even when you see them doing stupid things. In fact, sometimes it's the stupid things they do that make us love them even more.
     
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