Philosophy of the Jedi and Sith

I don't think so, because the following is from the exact same page of the script:

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

I'm not so sure Lucas' statement actually means that Ben thinks redemption is possible. It can be interpreted in a different way.

 

Lucas' statement is fairly clear cut.

?[The prequel trilogy] is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film.?

 

Yeah, I always thought GL changed his mind on this. Sure, in the PT he doesn't want Ben to turn into the guy who's going to ask Luke to kill cute little Anakin Skywalker, but in ROTJ it was clear that Ben knew if he wouldn't kill Vader then his options were too limited to hope to succeed.

 

Not necessarily. Ben could have been "waiting" for Luke to redeem Anakin in the same way the audience was waiting for Luke to redeem Anakin - unknowingly.

I don't know what year that quote is from, but I would say the viewpoint that found its way into the script and the film of ROTJ is what we should take to be the canonical view. It's also been "confirmed" by the recent Wyndham Obi-Wan book, as far as the EU is concerned. So I don't really see a shift in Lucas' stance between the eras.

 

I don't know the year it's from but, I think he may have shifted somewhat on it as well.

I guess it's possible, but that's grasping for straws to make it fit imo.

 

that's the funny bit, tho, isn't it, that he succeeds even tho everyone believes he won't stand a chance.

after the films it seems such a funny notion to suggest that it was killing him that would bring any success, because it'd clearly not be the case. it's the conflict that gives luke the dynamic to choose a path, not a blind following of an order.

 

after the films it seems such a funny notion to suggest that it was killing him that would bring any success, because it'd clearly not be the case. it's the conflict that gives luke the dynamic to choose a path, not a blind following of an order.

Not necessarily. Balance was restored once the Sith were gone. The Emporer did have to die (and did). The act of killing in this case was not a dark side act, because it wasn't from a place of hate, fear or anger. Vader could refused to turn, Luke would have had no choice but to destroy him and the Emporer both. It's arguable that Ben had seen the future and knew the outcome, and knew Luke would turn Vader, but I don't think he did know the future (always in motion is the future). Ben had already thought to turn Vader, and failed. Why wouldn't he have meant it when he said "Vader is more machine now than man."?

 

Luke destroy the Emperor?

 

IMO what's "grasping for straws" is the scenario in which Ben intends Luke to redeem Anakin and yet, for no apparent reason, tells him otherwise.

 

I can't get my head around this. Why would Ben think that Luke killing Vader would really achieve anything? The Emperor was the source of all the trouble and destroying him was the only way in which balance could be achieved in the Force. Would Ben not have been in contact with Qui Gon and now share his former master's belief that Anakin was the chosen one and therefore the only once capable of destroying the Sith?

 

That belief was expressed to Obi-Wan by Qui-Gon in TPM, it didn't depend on the Force ghosting.

The question remains: if Luke was to bring out the good in Anakin, why was he not told this?

 

True, but Qui Gon's newfound Force knowledge certainly wouldn't hurt the weight of his claim.

I agree with you that that is the question which remains. I don't know the answer to it, that's for sure.

 

I don't think Ben did intend for him to. Lucas is simply contradicting the film because he changed his mind. Yoda on the other hand, seems to have no plan other than for Luke to confront Vader and the Emperor and trust the Force to do what's right.

 

Or he didn't change his mind.

 

Which is why I conceded that your explanation is certainly possible.

 

Lucas can sometimes "change his mind" and then - without fanfare - change it back. It seems to have happened with the thing about Vader disappearing, for example. However, if he seems to change his mind to a stance that essentially conflicts with preexisting films, the validity of such a change can be called into question. Especially since the position will tend to eventually change back in such cases. In this case, it's not entirely clear there was any change at all.

 

because he needs to understand it, not be told.

no one knew what would or should happen, i'm sure they'd all come up with wishes, but they had no clue how to get there anymore. all that obi-wan had achieved when he'd tried to destroy anakin and show him who's boss, was that anakin's anger was fueled beyond measure. (maiming does that to people sometimes)
the dark side isn't some kind of imaginary hell, it is the desire to control and rule, the remaining jedi understood this now and so couldn't by virtue of their own hearts, control the outcome anymore than they had been to do this before. luke consciously chooses not to participate, but he doesn't know what will happen. he is true to his own heart, not to any command.

 

Telling him to do the opposite of what they supposedly intend him to do won't encourage any kind of "understanding". The authorial intent of the OT is clear, and Matrix-esque revisionism can't change the past. In this instance there is no actual need to rewrite the OT, due to the fact that Lucas quotes must sometimes be parsed in order to make logical sense. Also, the external dark side is not imaginary, and it is not simply the "desire to control and rule".

 

If Lucas meant to communicate that there was some part of Obi-Wan's unconcious which believed Anakin could be redeemed, that's not that the quote communicates. The quote makes it seem as though Ben is actively trying to guide Luke to redeem his father(though, I agree the film doesn't show that.)

 

Denying that Vader still has good in him would make it easier for Ben to deal with the fact that he left him for a horrible, horrible death on Mustafar instead of mercifully putting him out of his misery.

So I think he constantly tells himself Vader is an unredeemable monster to sooth his own consciens, but has this doubts that pop up now and then.

Luke was supposed to see Vader as monster as that would make it easier for Luke to murder him. While the Jedi usually object murder they are known to make exceptions in extreme cases (see Maces fight against Palpatine).

 

The reason Obi-Wan didn't put Vader down on Mustafar is pretty clearly explained in the ROTS novel; he decides he's not going to kill a helpless man, and leaves it to the Force.

 

Killing him would be the merciful course, and as a Jedi Master he should know that. I don't think the Jedi are generally opposed to euthanasia.

"Leaving it to the force" is a convenient excuse to shift responsibility somewhere else. It's the cowards way out of a hard decision.

 

No, it's what the Jedi are supposed to be doing-letting the Force act through them.

Besides, when have we ever seen a Jedi execute a helpless opponent and it be considered the right thing to do? Never.

 

the authorial intent is what we see, not your version of it. i have no interest whatsoever in authorial quotes.
there are some prequels, and there haven't just been added for purposes of decoration. thus, forgive me revisionism, i'm taking them into account in my understanding of the dark side, which i never said is imaginary. it might be metaphorical, because there aren't attempts to give it geographical or other dimensions. i'd have to say that 'the desire to control and rule' is the closest i have come to describe it, because it fits all the characters who fall for it pretty neatly. let me know when you've found a better way to describe it.

 

1)
How does he know what the will of the force is? It is up to interpretation and in most of the cases you can't make much more than an educated guess. At least that's how it appears throughout the movies.

And Obi Wan wasn't even in the mindstate to access the white side properly.

Plus you can't always trust your feelings, since they can come from the dark side as well. He was very much in a mindset where the dark side would influence him.

No, Jedi should never used the force as a crutch imo. Did you ever play Kotor 2? Kreia has said a lot of interesting things about relying too much on the force (as flawed as the game is, the philosophical parts are pure genius).

2)
When Windu tried to kill Palpatine?

And it's euthanasia, not execution. It's putting him out of his misery. Similar like it's done to a pet when it will be clearly in pain for the rest of its life.