Philosophy of the Jedi and Sith

Maybe, but the films themselves do not (as far as I recall) ever refer to the "light side" by name... they only refer to the dark side, thus implying a light side exists. Also, the "location" of that line of division between the two sides could be pretty subjective.

 

thank you. i thought i was the only one getting tired here

by the light of this overwhelming evidence of what the force is (lucas sez...) i guess i can stand by my description of it: the dark side is the desire to control and manipulate, basically corruption and whatever goes with it.

i have forgotten what the original argument now. great.

 

I like the term "corruption" more than "control", because the Jedi sometimes seek to control situations, even in the OT.

 

They don't use 'Light Side' but they do use 'Good Side.'

It comes up in Luke's training on Dagobah:

LUKE: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

and Ben talks about it in a cut-down line from RotJ:

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the
good side. It couldn't be done. He is more
machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

and Luke mentions it to Leia in the film:

LUKE
Because...there is good in him. I've felt
it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I
can save him. I can turn him back to the good
side. I have to try.

 

Yes, that's true... good point. I guess I always kind of interpreted that usage of the term "good side" to be an easy way to explain what it is to not be on the dark side... in a way that is easy to understand for those not so familiar with the Force yet. Luke calls it that, then Yoda and Obi-Wan call it that when talking to him about the Force itself or about Vader. Then Luke later uses it again to talk to Leia about Vader, as you quoted.

I always wondered if the Jedi (and probably the Sith) view it somewhat like this:

The Force
|-----------------------------------------|
|------------|
The dark side
of the Force

Of course the relative "size" of the dark side is subjective and depends on the views of the user, but this shows that being in or using the Force is probably inherently good or "light" unless you fall to the dark side of it. And Balance of the Force probably means something like "harmony", as opposed to "equal numbers" (which it most likely can't mean). Having the Sith around using the dark side, making its strength grow, and corrupting the Force by using it in negative, harmful ways throws the Force as a whole out of balance.

But conversely, that area of the dark side being there is probably not something that can ever truly go away, but instead just be avoided by Jedi. So from a Sith perspective, ignoring that area of the Force means not embracing "all" of the Force... as Palpatine says to Anakin in ROTS:

PALPATINE: My mentor taught me everything about the Force . . . even the nature of the dark side.

ANAKIN: You know the dark side?

PALPATINE: Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.

 

I tend to agree that the "light side" is really just the rest of the Force. The Dark Side is there, but the Jedi don't draw upon it while the Sith can use their anger to draw both from the Dark Side and from the rest of the Force itself. I hadn't connected it to Palpatine's comment, but that does work well as does Vader's comment that "The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force."

The Sith simply end up so consumed by the Dark Side that they lose perspective and come to see the Dark Side as greater than the rest of the Force, while the Jedi see that it exists but that it shouldn't be nurtured.

I definitely agree that balance is more akin to harmony. The Jedi seem to think the Force is in balance prior to TPM which means it can't mean the destruction of the Dark Side as bad things still happened and anger, fear, and hate still existed. However, if it is simply placing the Light and Dark into a place where they have reached a dynamic equilibrium which allows most of the universe to run harmoniously, it's easy to see why they would mistakenly think that's what had been achieved pre-TPM.

 

Yes, also good points.

 

Yes, the venerable M_S sums it up well. There will always be a dark side as the "rest" of the force is to some extent defined by it. And after all, if there was no fear at all, a few more of us would've been eaten by the old sabre-toothed tigers! I think when balance is mentioned, it means not being consumed, and therefore dominated, by such things as fear, anger and attachment, both individually and as a galaxy.

 

The implications of the ANH novelization are that the dark side is actually a very limited view of the Force that boxes a person into a certain mindset. It nicely fits with GL's statements about the nature of the dark and "light" sides of the Force. Dark = cancer, good/light = symbiosis. Take that into consideration about all that we know of the Force and how it binds the universe together. The Force is itself wholistic, while the dark side is isolationist. It's a kind of introversion. Egotism. The absolute opposite of a wholistic view of life and the Force. It's contradictory for Palpatine to tell Anakin he can teach him to use the "whole Force" when the very nature of how one uses the dark side of the Force is itself not wholistic and views all things as seperate and ultimately subbordinate to the ego of the Sith/darksider in question. The greatest feat of the Jedi is to surrender their ego so completely that they can even dematerialize their bodies into pure Force energy through compassionate love. What is compassion? It's viewing all as one's self.

Getting back to the ANH novelization, the exchange between Vader and Kenobi has Kenobi telling Vader how little of the Force he percieves because he's limited his view of it to the dark side. It's like in the new Clone Wars: Lightsaber Duels game... when you play as Obi-Wan and fight Ventress he taunts he with "you understand as little of the Force as a spoon tastes food." That's pretty much exactly what Obi-Wan says to Vader in the ANH novelization.

 

Hey guys, I just jumped into this discussion and have read most of what you have discussed already, but I still will offer my apologies if I hit something you have already discussed inadvertently.

It seems to me that the Sith prefer to use a sledge hammer to solve their problems rather than a sword like the Jedi prefer to. The Sith embody self-interest and impatience. Is this such a bad thing though seeing as how almost every individual in every country lives this way? The Sith did not originally view themselves as the ?dark side?, as far as I am aware, they did recognize that they had a different structure from the Jedi though. The Jedi, who viewed their actions as more noble, coined the term ?dark side?. Light and Dark and simply perspectives on an individuals actions and methods.

That may have come off as a little confusing??.

Let me make another statement that may be clearer.

If acting on self interest is a sign of the dark side of the force. Then aren?t there far more following the dark side of the force than the light side? Throughout the films and books the Jedi live completely in a capitalistic society and never really comment on it. A Capitalistic society only works if every is acting out of self interest.

Adam Smith certainly realized, self-interest will be one of the principal forces organizing economic activities in any society, but that is as true of the most repressive or brutal society as it is of a relatively free and open society. Most of us will not like the results of self-interest untempered by a respect for other creatures. As a recent example, in running their country to the disadvantage of most Soviet citizens, the leaders of the Communist Party and of the Soviet military and intelligence services were advancing their own self-interests, at least as they understood or misunderstood those interests.
The advantages enjoyed by Americans over citizens of the Soviet countries, and the advantages we still enjoy over the nominally free citizens of Russia and other eastern European countries, are those of a society organized to allow a high percentage of Americans to act in such a way as to serve both their self-interest and some substantial stock of moral principles. Not only our habits and customs, but also our positive laws ? such as those of copyright ? enter into that organization of our society, for good or bad, but not in a morally neutral manner.
Self-interest is not necessarily evil, though it can lead people to act in morally reprehensible ways. The love of self, and the consequent development of self-interest, is one aspect of a creature who is also a social, and hence moral, being. Self-interest itself can serve moral interests in a free society so long as that society has the proper foundations. The elements of those foundations include not only a populace sharing a substantial body of moral beliefs and habits but also the formal political structures, positive laws, and accepted court decisions capable of supporting both social order and personal freedom. Once those are in place, and once they have been internalized by the bulk of the citizens, then self-interest will provide a fuel of sorts to keep an economy functioning effectively without leading to immoral results on the whole. The question is always: Is our society organized properly, in its positive laws and in the habits we teach our children and reinforce in ourselves, so that self-interest and moral principles do not generally come into conflict?

Hopefully this presented some food for thought. If it came off as confusing I apologize, I have been working too many hours lately. I can always rephrase if need be.

 

I do think the point about the Jedi and capitalism is an interesting one. The only real comment on it in the films is that the CIS is essentially lead by a council of CEOs who want to overthrow the government for their own economic self-interest. I don't think the Jedi have any real economic theory though given that we're talking about an order of monks who have taken a vow of poverty(at least, as far as individual possession goes.)

If they did it would probably somewhat communist given that the Jedi stress fairly often the inter-connected nature of all life and thus solely pursuing self-interest would in their eyes seem at the very least incredibly short-sighted.

Edit: I suppose one could read the humor that Ben seems to derive from Han to be somewhat symbolic of the man on a higher path looking back at the pure capitalist, but that may be a stretch.

 

The whole capitalism and self interest fact is probably one of the cornerstone reasons as to why the Jedi take potentional force adept younglings in at such a small age. They dont want their thoughts tainted by constantly thinking in the self interst manner.

 

I think the dark side goes beyond self-interest. The Jedi survive, that's self-interest. They act to preserve the Republic and their Order, that's self-interest. They just balance their self-interest with a healthy amount of altruism. And I think most people live a shifting existence between altruism and self-interest. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that within the family structure parents life largely altruistic lives giving up much of their own independence and hobbies for the sake of their children. Spouses do the same in healthy relationships.

The Sith are going beyond, far far beyond, the kind of self-interest that tends to motivate average people. As do tyrants in general. It's psychopathic and sociopathic. The dark side is the metaphysical embodiment of sociopathy.

 

It's a part of it, but as Dawud points out, the Jedi understand some degree of self-interest is necessary.

 

Nicely put ! I never thought of it like that......

 

It seems to me that the Sith Self Interest advances society far faster than the Jedi and their Republic.......... one man in control makes things go faster than an indecisive group each seeing their own self interested goals. People may not like some of the decisions, but technology and medical techniques have advanced quicker while a Sith was in charge

 

How come when Sith tap into the force it pulls life from them and they age faster when they pull deeply from the force like Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, whereas when the Jedi do it they don't seem to suffer the same effects?

 

The candle that burns the brightest burns out the fastest.

 

Well, that's the eternal argument in favor of a dictatorship. However, the human cost renders it an unacceptable form of government.

The Jedi draw only from the good while the Sith draw from the harsher and corruptive parts of the Force.

 

And there's much evidence that dark side degradation is a gradual process rather than an instantaneous one.

 

Good point, I should've remembered to mention that.

 

There was one book, I cant recall which, where Luke cloaks the Jade Shadow with the Force in order to evade an enemy. Han is piloting the Millennium Falcon and suddenly the Jade Shadow pops up nearby. Luke was described as looking like the emperor after exerting that much Force power to cloak the Jade Shadow, but there was no mention of him using the Dark Side. I am assuming this would fall under the "the candle that burns the brightest" belief in the force draining from the one using it?

 

I believe so, though it's entirely possible Luke was unintentionally drawing upon the Dark Side given that he didn't believe it existed at that point in the Dark Nest Trilogy.

 

Luke used his anger when he did that.

 

I really should re-read Dark Nest.