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Philosophy of the Jedi and Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Dark-Fox, Oct 1, 2008.

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  1. Darth_Cadaverous

    Darth_Cadaverous Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 25, 2008
    If I may put in a few words please. I am no historian, but my reading skills are pretty good though. In one of the books, if not two of them. The duel between Jedi Master Obi-Wan and Darth Maul was not a sane one for Obi-Wan. He actually admits that he used the Dark Side of the force to defeat Darth Maul.

    If you recall, his fury when he saw his Master die at the hands of the Dark Lord. He did not walk up or smile, he screamed, door came down, and anger flowed into his body. Then he did not relent on his foe. Instead of flowing like a calm river, they were stiff and hard like a 50 mile hour wind forced lake. There was no kindness there at all.

    Yes, I agree that I, myself would do the same, but he admits that anger was the power behind his strokes.

    And let me say, this is pretty cool. I will be visiting more often I hope.

    One more thing I do have:

    The Sith will bend the force to their will, not the other way around. Yes, it may hint, like it does for the Jedi, but it goes back to the I am the Master, not you. Emotional Sith? Yes they are. Anger, Hate, Love are some of the feelings, but to me, Anger and Love are the strongest. Do you love your wife? Yes, if you saw the man who put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger. Do you still Love her? Yes

    Anger, Do you now want to tear his head off and bounce it off the nearest wall, and play a game of kick ball...Yes. (I know I would, and there would be no stopping me neither. All gets in the way will die.) If you disagree, then you do not Love your wife like I do. But yet, the Jedi at different points in time do not allow it for it brings strong emotions to the fore front.

    Jedi are like kids, if momma says turn left, they will turn left. I am not saying momma will direct them wrong, but the Force will help direct them in a direction that is more helpful to what ever they are doing. For a small example:
    It may because the force "willed" that blaster bolt to take out the hyperdrive and lead them to Tattoneen(ms) to find Aniken Skywalker. Or did it direct Jedi Master Jinn, to that shop that he worked in.

    Who can say for sure, but the Force for the Jedi, is a directional help.



    (Off subject: Turin2221, please PM me when you can. You are a hard one to get a hold of.)
     
  2. Turin2221

    Turin2221 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 23, 2008
    http://www.myspace.com/turin2221
     
  3. Darth_Magus

    Darth_Magus Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2002
    I have noticed that some members seem to be under the impression that it is simply how you use the Force that dictates whether it is good or bad, Yoda suggests otherwise...

    "That place is strong with the dark side of the force..."

    Referring of course to the tree.

    So a place, a location, can be part of the Dark Side, and what I find really interesting about this is that Luke actually has a physical reaction to it, he feels cold.

    In no other part of the saga do we see a Jedi have a physical reaction to the Dark Side like this. Because of his potential does this only happen with Luke? Yoda is not surprised with how he feels so I think perhaps Yoda feels it too, maybe because this is an actual location strong with the Dark Side and not just a person.

    So how does this affect our thoughts on the nature of the Dark Side?

    And I also have been wondering that we are all familiar with the Jedi code of avoiding anger and hate because they led to the Dark Side, do we have any evidence that a Sith Code exists for avoiding compassion and love and similar feelings?
     
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.
    [face_skull]
     
  5. Turin2221

    Turin2221 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 23, 2008
    Their code is well known. No Sith code seems to be. If it was....I will Strike thee down with a rod of iron, and take all that you hold dear, All that you care for will turn to ashes in the grip of my hand. Only then will you know the true nature of the Dark side Or if your religious go to revelation chapter 6 verse 7. I'm not religious though....Are the Sith Evil? or is it a schism like Catholicism and Protestantism?
    -Turambar
     
  6. Rev

    Rev Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2005
    There are three dichotomies used when describing the Force, each of which the Jedi and Sith understand differently.

    The first and most common duality is the Light and the Dark sides of the Force. The Jedi understand these terms as being moral connotations. The Light Side is the good, intended nature of the Force; the Dark Side is an evil corruption.

    When the Sith use these terms, however, they do so with an almost Gnostic connotation of esoteric knowledge. For them, the Light Side is the common, crude aspect of the Force which is easily attainable to even the unenlightened Force-sensitives; the Dark Side is dark in that it represents hidden wisdom and secret knowledge, access to which must be limited. Furthermore, they are incapable of understanding the Jedi?s rejection of the Dark Side (mistaking it rather for envy), because of their amoral view of the Force.

    Secondly, the Unifying Force and the Living Force seem to be a distinction made exclusively by the Jedi.

    The third dichotomy is commonly called by others the Greater and Lesser Forces, though I propose labeling such the Divine Force and the Life-force. Some debate exists as to whether such a division exists, and if so, whether the two are different aspects of the same being/substance, or if they are indeed altogether separate. I hold the latter, with the understanding that the qualities attributed to the Greater Force (self-existence, omnipotence, omni-benevolence, eternal, etc.) would be incompatible with the known nature of the Lesser Force (it is this force that is divided into the aspects of Light/Dark, Unifying/Living).

    Orthodox Jedi thus endorse the view that the Lesser Force is to be utilized in service to the Greater Force. Sith, conversely, deny the existence of the Greater Force, as made evident by their low view of the Force as a mere tool to be used and their amoral perspective on the Light and Dark Side (without a Creator there exists no good or evil).
     
  7. Dmasterman

    Dmasterman Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2008
    To me, it sounds almost like a biblical reference on how the Jedi and Sith think.

    The Jedi use their gifts for good, to defend others and preserve peace and justice. Helping others before themselves, and call themselves servants of the force.

    While the sith claim that the force is their weapon, their tool and use it for their own gains or passions. Basically the sins that the devil tries to tempt humanity.

    :p
     
  8. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2009
    The Jedi see themselves as the instruments of the Force. The Sith see the Force itself as a tool.
     
  9. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 11, 2009
    Rev:
    A creator isn't necessary for good and evil, but other than that, your explanation seems to be correct, Rev. I've never even heard the Jedi say that the Force itself is a creator; in fact, the fact that it's generated by all living things pretty much denies its role in the origin of the universe.

    Of course, the Jedi do believe the Force is sentient.
     
  10. Danaan

    Danaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 23, 2008
    Actually:

    -Life creates it, makes it grow...
    Yoda, ESB
     
  11. Rev

    Rev Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2005
    I agree with you're statement that a creator is not necessarily good or evil. However, the Jedi do not treat morality as a mere social construct, but as a real reflection of the will of the Force. This indicates the existence of an absolute standard of good and evil in the Star Wars universe. That standard can be summarized as such: anything conforming to the will of the Greater Force is good, and any deviation from its will is evil. Thus only a creator can define absolute good and evil. This in turn indicates the existence of a creator for the Star Wars universe, and necessitates that such a creator is naturally good. In short, objective morality points to a benevolent creator. This is known in philosophy as the "argument from morality."

    This is why I hold that the [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#The_Greater_and_Lesser_Force]Greater Force and the Lesser Force[/link] refer to two separate entities, with the Jedi using "The Force" for both interchangeably. In this way Yoda is correct when he says that "Life creates it, makes it grow," because he is referring specifically to the Lesser Force, and not the Greater Force.

    Put another way, the Greater Force is equivalent to the traditional Western monotheistic understanding of God, while the Lesser Force is comparable to the Hebrew concept of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh]Nephesh [/link](as well as the Eastern concept of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27i]Qi[/link]).



     
  12. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 11, 2009
    My brain hurts. Forceology tends to do that.

    Though of course I still hold that the light/dark dualism of the Force is that the dark side is a corruption of the Force, like cancer, not that they're evenly balanced.
     
  13. Rev

    Rev Jedi Master star 2

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    Jan 3, 2005
    Forceology was essentially my major in college (it was actually Philosophy, but I tended to take courses which focused on the ethical and metaphysical philosophies in modern media, such as "The Philosophy of Tolkien," "Chronicles Narnia and Philosophy," and "Philosophy in Film," among others, though my independent study on "Philosophy in Video Games" fell through, which was the class I was most looking forward to).
     
  14. Danaan

    Danaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 23, 2008
    Interesting. [face_thinking] I can't say that I'm familiar with the concept of Nephesh, but I have to say that when I think of the Force, and the Jedi, my thoughts pretty much go to Zen-buddhism and Daoism, which seems to me is the closest real life equivalent of the Force and the Jedi. Their basic view of the universe seem pretty much identical, and that also seems to correspond with Lucas' getting a good deal of inspiration from East Asia (which he was hardly alone in doing in the late 60s, early 70s), Kurosawa being a major such source. IIRC, Lucas originally wanted Toshiro Mifune in the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi (which is a very Japanese sounding name), but he turned it down, but I might be wrong about that. Still, imagining Mifune in the part really brings the Jedi home as a some sort of "space samurai", if you like. [face_laugh]

    At any rate, I can't seem to recall Zen or Daoism having the need for any "Creator" in the Christian sense. There is Qi, or Ki (=the Force) that flows through the universe and makes life possible, but it can hardly be described as personalized entity the way theistic religions envision God or gods. But if I understand your argument correctly, that understanding would only correspond to the "Lesser Force"...?
     
  15. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 11, 2009
    Well, Shinto has many gods, or kami; the Emperor (of Japan, not Palpatine or Sidious or Cos Da**** or whatever his name is) is descended from the sun goddess Amaterasu.
     
  16. Danaan

    Danaan Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 23, 2008
    Isn't Shinto and Zen different meta-physical perspectives entirely? IIRC Shintoism is a form of animism, with a good deal of ancestor worship. Zen has none of that. Or am I totally wrong now?
     
  17. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 11, 2009
    No, you're not wrong, but most Japanese are both Shinto and Buddhist. In Asia, it's possible to have multiple religions at once, so long as it isn't a Darth Chicken-type thing where the two religions have inherent ideological differences; one couldn't, for instance, be both the Dalai Lama (celibate) and a Confucian (encouraged to have a family).

    Zen doesn't have gods. But the Jedi struck me as more animistic to a large extent; the Force is created by life, after all.
     
  18. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, this is all correct. Some other notes about religion in Japan... most Japanese don't really consider themselves religious, although most practice the Shinto and Buddhist customs typical for different events (birth, wedding, death, holidays, etc.). It is really more a cultural component of being Japanese than it is an active religious activity, to their thinking. Most people go to Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples for different events (see above). For ceremonies, Shinto is generally more associated with "new life" kinds of things, such as birth and weddings, while Buddhism is more associated with funerals. Shinto is a native Japanese religion, while Buddhism is not, but the Zen sect of Buddhism is a native Japanese sect. Other sects of Buddhism are also represented/observed.
     
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