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MOD Pimping/Promoting Policy Discussion - Everyone please participate!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by mavjade , Jan 3, 2015.

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  1. mavjade

    mavjade It's so FLUFFY! Fanfic Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2005
    A discussion was started in the Writers Resource thread about the Pimping/Promoting rule and how possibly it could be reworked. This is the thread for such discussion.


    Before we get started, I just want to remind everyone that if you have an idea for a thread you would like to see in Resource (be it an index, challenge or a discussion you feel needs to be had with the community such as ones regarding rules, policies etc.) please always feel free to PM Bri and myself, we are happy to have such discussions. Sometimes there is nothing that can be done (as in rules that the owner of the site has set, or rules that all of MS would have to discuss), but often times we are happy to have an open conversation with everyone, even if it is just to explain in-depth to everyone why the rule is set in place. (If it's a Mod Squad rule, we could have the discussion as a fanfic community, but then it would have to be taken to MS as well.)


    First let's start with how the rules currently stand. The FanFic FAQ states:




    and


    Currently you are allowed to post links to story threads in some resource threads if it directly pertains to that thread (example: challenge threads), and for the most part that has remained up to the discretion of the thread host, with a few exceptions. Otherwise linking or naming a fic, your own or someone elses is not allowed and has been strictly enforced.

    The reason for these rules is prior to either Bri or myself being mods, there was a very large problem with people 'upping' stories, frequent mentioning of fics in conversation, even people going so far as to create socks to review their own stories to get them on the first page, among other things hence these rules being in place. (The Fanfic forum had many more posts per day at that time and a story could fall off the first page very quickly.) Some of these things have pretty much been cut out over the years, but some do still happen.

    Since the years that these rules were enacted, our community has become smaller, though we are hoping to have it become larger again as The Force Awakens and subsequent movies come out, but perhaps it is time to discuss some of our polices as our community changes. We do recognize that some of these rules are out of date and they do not necessarily reflect our opinions. We are open to a thought-out change in this policy.

    Please feel free to put your thoughts about these polices here in this thread, and feel free to have an open discussion.
     
    Chyntuck and jcgoble3 like this.
  2. taramidala

    taramidala Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 1999
    Thanks for starting the thread, mavjade! I've been putting some thoughts together this afternoon, and while I can't claim to speak for all, I do feel as though some of my thoughts are shared by some other posters.

    Regarding the issue of “Pimping" (and only pimping - the anti-promotion rules seem reasonable)

    The rule against topping a thread for the sake of topping it should remain intact. There is no dispute about that.

    What I feel should be adjusted is the fact that we cannot even mention our own fics by name (let alone link them!) in threads where, as writers, discussion of our works is necessary. A few examples of such threads include:

    • The “Writer’s Resource” thread – how can anyone possibly receive the advice they’re looking for when everything has to be couched in vagueness in order to avoid looking like they are “pimping” their fic?
    • “Bring Back the OC Revolution” – how can writers discuss their OCs without ever mentioning the fic in which they appear?
    • The “Fanon Thread” – in explaining fanon components for other writers to use, it may be necessary to discuss the fics that birthed them in order to explain/provide context
    • “Over 30 Writers Club” – again, a place for discussion and sharing ideas; not being able to mention specific works seems overly restrictive; and
    • The “Creche Thread / Beta Thread”
    Something to consider? Give the FanFic users a bit more credit than they currently have. While there are people of all ages here, as far as I can see vast majority are complying with the rules as best they can, and the public takedowns and mod!edited posts can come across as though we’re being infantilized and babysat.


    My personal feeling is this: I’m not offended if someone mentions their story as a relevant part of a discussion. I’m not sure anyone else is, either. Let’s let it go!

    Now, if someone constantly mentions their work in every single post, that is an entirely different matter, and they should be spoken to. And if you’re concerned over the influx of n00bs that will be arriving once Ep7 does, that is a perfectly valid concern.

    A possible informal solution to those problems? Use current posters as resources. Many of us who have been around a while would be more than happy to help guide new posters on the block. Not only would this lighten the mods’ loads a bit, but it demonstrates trust in the community. That is what we’re supposed to be, right? We look out for each other. Let us help you!

    Changing these rules a bit not only satisfies the users here, but should also lighten the mod load a bit. If you’re not constantly slapping down users for what’s currently viewed as “pimping” you might have time to watch for more egregious TOS violations.

    I think it’s a disservice to fandom to not allow writers to discuss their own stories in an appropriate manner.
     
  3. JadeLotus

    JadeLotus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Excellent post taramidala, and I agree with these points.

    Shameless promoting should not be allowed, but if mentioning a fic is relevant to the discussion, than it seems silly not to be allowed to mention it. Or for it to be mentioned vaguely and if a user is interested in checking out that fic, them having to sift through various posts and fics to find what they're looking for or have to do it over PM.

    There is a great, supportive community here, and occasionally discussions about particular fics in the Resource threads is warranted to help us all improve.
     
    ginchy, Chyntuck, Revanfan1 and 6 others like this.
  4. Jedi_Lover

    Jedi_Lover Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2004
    I totally agree with this. I have been surprised when I see a mod/Edit of a story name or link in a social thread where the people are happily discussing fanfiction and it is obvious the writer is not pimping but answering a question about a fic. I think a zero tolerance policy hampers discussions in writing/social threads. Mods should be able to look at the content of the conversation and make a judgement on whether there is a legitimate reason for a story name or link to be present.

    Also, people who are writing a series of stories should be able to link their previous stories at the start of their new fanfic. If you are writing part four of a series of stories all related to each other we should make it easy for the readers to find the previous stories. This doesn't affect me so much because most of my earlier stories are truncated, so I point the reader to the FFN link in my signature, but others might benefit from a change or clarification of this rule.

    Also, we are not supposed to put links to stories on another site, but if you have a truncated story I think in the first post of that truncated story we should be able to put an author's note explaining the truncation issue and provide a link to the story if it is posted at FFN or LJ as long as we are not guiding the person to an NC-17 writing site.
     
    Lady_Misty, ginchy, Chyntuck and 6 others like this.
  5. Findswoman

    Findswoman Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    I agree wholeheartedly with the points made above by taramidala, JadeLotus, and Jedi_Lover, and they've made them so eloquently I don't really have all that much to add. Mindless thread "upping" (which definitely should remain forbidden), random story advertisements, and unsolicited PM advertising are in a completely different category from mentioning a story title—either one's own or someone else's—in a resource thread to provide context, and it doesn't seem quite fair to "umbrella" both those things under the same rule. Many's been the time I've browsed through threads like OC Revolution and Fanon and thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have a link to the chapter of so-and-so's story where they introduce fanon concept X or character Y?" Conversely, for my own posts in those threads, I've often wished I could either link to or excerpt a story chapter by way of explanation so I'm not stuck having to rewrite things—it would be a huge time and energy saver. If anyone else here did the same, it would absolutely not offend me at all. I think the ultimate result would be a more active and vibrant community all around, with more people reading and commenting on other people's stories.

    Of course, as taramidala says, if there are individual cases of the wrong kind of story mentions, then the mods should absolutely crack down. And I know they can do so with discrimination: posting "You can see the Acme Ultra Mystery Widget in action in chapter 5 of my story Fill in Title Here" in a Fanon post is not in the same class as suddenly blurting out "hey pleez review my fic Totally Awesome Story" in the social thread.

    So to sum up, I too would vote to keep the rules against the more aggressive forms of pimping (unsolicited PMs, random mentions, etc.) but to reconsider the "absolutely no mentions by name" rule. Perhaps the mods could even come up with a list of specific threads that would be exempt from that rule, and those starting new resource threads could check in with the mods about whether their new thread could be added to that list. Just a thought for now; I look forward to further discussion.
     
    ginchy, Chyntuck, Ewok Poet and 5 others like this.
  6. mavjade

    mavjade It's so FLUFFY! Fanfic Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2005
    I'm not going to give my thoughts/feelings about the policy and what has been discussed quite yet, I want to see what others have to say and get a general idea of what the majority feel first, but I do want to clear these things up first.

    You've always been able to link to your previous stories at the start of a new fic, so long as it's part of a series or related to that previous story. I'm sorry if you didn't think that was allowed, but it always has been.

    And we've said several times that you can link to your story that was truncated at an outside site so long as that version still adheres to the TOS here.
     
    Chyntuck likes this.
  7. Jedi_Lover

    Jedi_Lover Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2004

    I think I have asked the question in the past, but I couldn't remember the answer for sure.

    If these exceptions are not mentioned in the rules they should be added.
     
    Chyntuck likes this.
  8. Ewok Poet

    Ewok Poet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2014
    I don't have much to add other than what I more or less said in one of the other threads: that for us who are new to the board and were dormant in terms of anything SW-related for a long time - as well as for the folks who are total newbies, the current rules can be confusing and they make finding stories, learning things and getting practical examples harder. And I get it that a lot of us are busy people. ;)

    Some interlinking and story names as references are a great help for catching up. If the OC index thread comes to life, links to stories the character appeared in would be useful as well.

    So, the first point on the promotion examples list should be redefined and expanded; the others are perfectly reasonable the way they are.
     
    JadeLotus, taramidala and Findswoman like this.
  9. Kahara

    Kahara Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2001
    Pretty much agree with what has already been said by others here. Most of the anti-pimping/spam rules are reasonable. The no-story titles thing can get weird and obstructive to the discussion in many of the workshop and character writing community threads. In addition, I think it's not a policy that would be obvious to newcomers. It's always seemed to me that it would be easy to step in that one if you don't read the rules carefully and just go in assuming that general rules of Internet conduct are enough. I mean, I am a careful reader-before-posting, but that's not how everyone is and most people don't intend any harm.
     
  10. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    I just think that we should be given some leeway in terms of story discussion. As I've mentioned before, the majority of us will tend to use fics as sources or a frame of reference. Usually, a topic will be brought up and someone would have touched upon it in a story and would like to mention how they approached the subject. But, if we're going to be e-slapped for mentioning a title, then we can't participate in the discussion without being extremely vague and confusing. It makes those discussions very difficult when we are not allowed to use fics as a frame of reference in a fanfic discussion.

    That's the most aggravating thing about the pimping rule to me; it limits and even prohibits viable discussion. We can't cite our sources, we can't provide references, and we have to remain extremely vague. What's the point in having fanfic discussion if you can't discuss fanfics?

    QuickEdit: Sorry if this seemed scatterbrained. I was hatching eggs in Pokemon while reading, and hatching eggs while typing.
     
  11. Goodwood

    Goodwood Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2011
    Surfacing from my game-induced temporary exile to say that I enthusiastically support taramidala 's post.
     
    Chyntuck and taramidala like this.
  12. Briannakin

    Briannakin Grand Moff Darth Fanfic & Costuming/Props Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    I’ve kinda waited to weigh in on this. But I’m going to state a bit of defense of the policy and then my personal opinions.

    Many of the rules, particularly the ones on anti-promotions are in place for good reasons. As others have stated, there is no reason for unsolicited PMs or “upping”. In the past these were huge problems. I feel as if all those rules need to stay in place and I feel as if I need to enforce them. I am often locking threads where newbies ask a specific question related to their specific story. There is no need for dozens of threads asking for help on one specific story. That is what the Writer’s Desk is for.

    What I am mainly concerned about is the annoying “READ MAH STORY” post, or subtler attempts along the same thing. The ‘blanket’ no linking/no discussion of specific stories has made things easier (in the way that there are no grey areas between discussing stories and promoting). But it has gotten a bit silly and a bit out of hand and I see many of your points.

    I agree that in some of the different threads (IE Writer’s Desk, Fandom thread and character discussion threads) discussing specific story lines, mentioning fics and even linking should be allowed. It hampers discussion when you can’t: even I’ve run into this and I agree that it is frustrating.

    (This is my proposal as a user, not as a mod): I propose making clearer defined and even reviewing the pimping policies of specific threads. Perhaps we can create “categories” of threads in terms of what their pimping policy can be. We can edit the first posts of these threads to reflect the changes and clarifications. We could also make a quick reference sticky index of sorts where people can quickly see what is allowed where. Something along the lines of (and these are just example categories with example threads):

    Social Threads – No Mentioning, discussing or linking specific fics:
    - We Are All Fine Here

    Discussion and Index threads – Mentioning and some discussion of specific fics is okay, but no monopolizing discussion about the fic or linking (for me, linking screams I WANT YOU TO READ MAH STORY, but you can disagree with me):
    - LM Character Index (and any other character thread)
    - OC Revolution (so you can say X appears in Y, but the discussion is about the OC, not necessarily the story)
    - Fandom Thread (so you can say Z appears in W story, or I was asked to flesh out THIS THINGY which appears in V story)

    Challenge and Help threads – Linking and discussing in depth (depending on the thread) is fine:
    - Dear Diary Challenge (and other similar challenges)
    - Writer’s Desk
     
    Chyntuck, TrakNar, Kahara and 2 others like this.
  13. earlybird-obi-wan

    earlybird-obi-wan Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 21, 2006
  14. taramidala

    taramidala Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 1999

    Bri, for the sake of clarification, these aren't the rules that are in question. I don't think anyone is asking for those to be changed because you're right: they are huge problems and obnoxious as hell. It's the prohibition of referencing fics in legitimate discussion that is a problem.

    At first glance, I like your idea about categorizing threads in terms of what is allowed where, but I want to read it again when it's not so late before offering any further thought. Thanks for offering your thoughts, both as a mod and as a user, though. This is exactly what Chyntuck and I were hoping would happen :)
     
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  15. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    The only time I would mention a fic would be in a discussion thread, and only as a frame of reference. If a discussion brings up a subject that had been approached in a fic, either mine or someone else's, then I want to be able to cite that fic as an example. I want to be able to say, "that was handled in such-and-such way in this story," and not have to be worried about being reprimanded for even daring to do something that is so commonly done in classrooms.

    Simply put: You cannot have a legitimate fanfic discussion if you are prohibited from mentioning fanfic.
     
  16. Briannakin

    Briannakin Grand Moff Darth Fanfic & Costuming/Props Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    No, the promoting rules aren't really in question here. But I think since both Pimping and Promoting are closely related, Mav wanted to put them both out there (and to make clear the difference between the two) and I wanted to touch on both. However, I agree that we are all in agreement that the promoting rules should remain as they are.
     
    Chyntuck likes this.
  17. Findswoman

    Findswoman Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Briannakin, I like the general idea of categories of threads with differing policies on specific story mentions; details can certainly be hashed out as we go, but that at least seems like a viable place to start in revamping this policy. And then, as I mentioned above, if any new resource threads get created, "those starting new resource threads could check in with the mods about whether their new thread could be added to that list [of threads where specific stories can be mentioned]."

    Now, I personally do not feel that linking always implies "READ MAH STORY" in the obnoxious, pimpy sense; if it did, then why make it OK to include story links in signatures, which, after all, appear as part of every single post made by a given user? For me it depends on how links are used. The occasional more specific link, say, to a specific chapter or passage in a story, could be helpful in a resource thread in the interest of saving readers scrolling and searching time: in a fanon post describing the Acme Ultra Mystery Widget, it just makes sense to link directly to the chapter where said widget is introduced, just as if we were citing a specific page number in a print book (TrakNar pointed out earlier the analogy to citing one's sources, and it's a very valid one). But that's just my own opinion.
     
  18. Briannakin

    Briannakin Grand Moff Darth Fanfic & Costuming/Props Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    Maybe this is just a personal thing.. but let's address signatures first off.

    As a board-wide rule, pretty much anything TOS friendly can be placed in signatures and I do think placing links to stories in signatures is a great and not annoying way to get readers. Both of these facts are because signatures are easily ignored. They become like the background (after the first few times you've seen someone's) in a community such as this because you see everyone's so often.

    But let's just make this clear, signatures are not part of this debate. No fanfic mod had ever cared what was in a signature (as long as it was TOS friendly).

    But getting back to links in posts. (Again this might be a personal peeve, but I would like to have my opinions heard as a user). The difference, for me, between linking a fic and mentioning it is like linking me to the amazon page where I can buy Frankenstein because it has some confusing narration and just saying "Frankenstein is a story with confusing points of narration". The first seems way more like advertizement, but the second, I am just talking about ti. Most of you could probably figure out what book I was talking about or find it on your own without me shoving it in your face (for lack of better terms).

    I will agree that sometimes linking to specific story (or chapter post) needs to be done. Sometimes it needs to be placed RIGHT THERE, otherwise it would be difficult to find. It makes sense to do it for a help thread or when replying to a challenge.

    I think, if we go with categories, having different 'degrees of pimping' would be useful and being able to say, no links are allowed may be nice. It would help define how "in depth" discussion on a story could go. For example, in the fandom thread, you don't want the discussion derailed by some people discussing their story line. So they can say in their post for that month "I was asked to detail this THINGY in chapter 3 of My Awesome Story" and that's all the discussion on the fic. That way people know to discuss the THINGY and not the story. And if people want, on their own, they can find chapter 3 easily (assuming it is a recent story).

    I will admit that there could be possible exceptions even when a thread is defined and in a category and we as mods could take that into account (IE when linking to some obscure, old fic).

    But I am tired and probable not making much sense (and I see the holes in my logic).
     
  19. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    *shrill screaming in Threepio's voice heard in the distance* Wait for me! Wait for meeeee!

    Ahem. Or maybe not, it's not really as if I have much to add to what has already been said.

    Just to be clear, from what I read above, what we're discussing of the rules mav quoted...
    ... basically boils down to the bit of sentence in bold above. Everyone (including me) agrees that the rest should remain in place as it is and that we don't want shameless self-promotion in any form.

    Now as to what I'd like to see change.

    I believe mentioning your fic and linking to it (or even linking to a specific chapter) should be allowed in the resource/character/discussion/index threads when relevant to the conversation. I insist on having the possibility to link because there are many, many looooong fics and threads on these boards, and if you mention an OC that appears in chapter 62 of your fic without the link, it's not really helpful if you don't send your interlocutor to the right place.

    So I definitely agree with Briannakin on the idea of categories of threads where mentioning your fic is okay. I want to add however that the keyword here is relevance, and that the rules should specify clearly that the mods have discretion to edit a mention in a thread where mentions are are authorized if the mention comes across as plain self-promotion.

    I like taramidala 's idea about "veteran" users acting as resource people when Ep VII comes out and there is an influx of new users. I'm personally very happy with the way our little community works here in fanfic, and while I'm not adverse to change and am looking forward to new arrivals, I'll be e-slapping anyone who comes in and spoils the relations of mutual respect we've established, whether I'm asked to or not.

    I also agree with Kahara that a problem with the rules is that the "no mentioning fics" rule is a bit counter-intuitive and that this needs to be sorted out somehow. I'm also a careful reader and I'm a lawyer, for heaven's sake, so reading and applying rules is supposed to be my specialty, but I still blunder around regularly because there are just so many rules and it's a bit confusing. People are coming to these boards for fun and navigating the rules shouldn't require a PhD in constitutional law. This is why I disagree with Bri that we sometimes allow linking, sometimes not -- it will make things even more confusing and the mods will spend their time editing posts. So when it comes to rule simplification and readability, I'd recommend that:
    • we allow mentioning of and linking to fics by default in ALL resource and character threads. For all other threads it will be specified in the opening post.
    • we emphasise the issue of RELEVANCE and add something about mod discretion,
    • we leave it up to thread runners to maintain discipline in their threads and bring in the mods when needed (because we can't expect the mods to be scouring the site for instances of pimping/promoting),
    • we copy the rules pertaining to mentioning, pimping and promoting in a SEPARATE STICKY THREAD and we post it front and centre in the fanfic board so everyone gets to see it every day. People are not stupid and a well-phrased paragraph about the difference between mentioning, pimping and promoting should be more than enough to clarify things for everyone.
    Lastly I want to add that all the above should apply not only to one's own fics, but also to mentioning other people's fics in the resource/character threads.

    That's my two drachmas :) Mods, thanks for opening this discussion, this is really useful.
     
  20. JadeLotus

    JadeLotus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2005
    I like the sound of these suggestions.

    To be honest, I can't see a problem with linking to a fic or a specific chapter if the reference to it is in context of the thread. If mentioning the fic by name is permissible, simply making that reference a link for convenience seems perfectly acceptable. I'll admit it, I can be lazy, and would rather just clink on a link if I want to check out what a poster is talking about rather than having to trawl through threads or the search function. [face_dunno]

    To be clear, I'm not talking about "PLZ READ MY FIX XXX" and a link, since that would be unacceptable pimping and would be dealt with by people in the thread or a mod. Rather, if there's discussion about a topic in a resource thread and someone wants to say "well I dealt with this issue by doing xyz in this chapter of my fic xxx," making xxx a link doesn't seem intrusive to me, unless of course that user makes a habit of doing so when the discussion doesn't warrant it. Again, some self-policing could come into play here by regulars/thread runners.
     
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  21. mavjade

    mavjade It's so FLUFFY! Fanfic Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2005
    First I want to say you guys are a great and I've always known you were great but after also modding 7SA for a while, I really appreciate how awesome you guys are! I love this community -which is why I agreed to be a mod in the first place, it's way too much work if you don't love it- but in being a mod that means I have to look at it from two points of view.


    I say that because I don't want what I'm about to say to seem like 'All of you are just out to pimp your fics' because that's certainly not true (and that is what the current policy makes it seem like), but one of the biggest things I'm worried as a mod is about when I think someone is just joining a conversation to add their fic, or they just tangentially slide it into the conversation where it kinda works but kinda doesn't. I, of course, have no way of proving that person was just trying to get their fics in and if I have no rule to point to, it can turn a small situation into a very big one. This would be something that most likely Bri and I would discuss as a team before approaching that person and/or editing, but that doesn't necessarily make the situation less grey. Maybe it won't happen often enough to worry about it, but it's still on my mind. (Many of your have used the word relevance, which is perfect, but that can still be a bit of a grey area.)


    There has been a change in how people in fanfic interact in the almost 10 years I've been a member here, there is a lot less drama (it's the internet so there is some of course) and a lot less people, and our policies should reflect that change. As a user of these forums, I agree that it can be stifling at times to avoid and I generally don't mind people mentioning a fic, but when it's constant, it does start to feel like everyone is just out for themselves. That's not to say I don't think there should be a change, I certainly do, I've just been there before and it's not fun as a user either.


    As for looking to you guys to help us out... we already do! There's just too much material for us to be everywhere all the time, we always want you to contact us if you feel there is a situation that needs to be dealt with, otherwise we love it when you guys help others out. We may reiterate it after you and say something along the lines of "Username is correct, Thread title is the best place to put this." just so it can be seen that it is the correct answer, or to add a bit more detail.


    I really like some of the ideas that have been brought up! I'm not going to go into detail at the moment, I still want to see more opinions if people have them. :) (Well that, and I'm at work and may be pulled away at any moment to do what they are paying me to do, so I don't want to type a bigger post and then lose it. ;) )


    One thing I ask, please remember these were rules that were made before Bri and I were mods, we haven't been purposely out to get anyone or trying to baby you guys, we've just been enforcing them because those have been the rules. I'm glad we are having this conversation now, and if things change in the future with an influx of people, we can always have another discussion.
     
  22. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    This entire discussion is here because the rules are so incredibly outdated and need a rewrite.

    The only place I would consider keeping the rules the same would be the social thread. It's the discussion threads where the rules become a hinderance.
     
    Chyntuck, Ewok Poet, Kahara and 4 others like this.
  23. Findswoman

    Findswoman Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    mavjade, I appreciate your weighing in in the capacities of both mod and member. I guess my question would be, do you have in mind any specific incidents from recent memory (without naming names, of course) where someone was "just joining a conversation to add their fic, or ... just tangentially slide it into the conversation where it kinda works but kinda doesn't"? Because I just don't see a lot of danger of that sort of thing happening with the current crowd (though admittedly, as a regular member, I don't see all the things you and Bri see as mods.) Nor do I see much danger of "constant" mentions. (There are any number of reasons why someone might mention the same story multiple times in the same thread—for example, because one only has one story, or only one large-scale story, posted at TFN. Individual circumstances should be taken into account.) But again, I'm not seeing everything you see.

    And maybe I'm not sure why the concept of "relevance" would be such a gray area; maybe this is just my non-mod perspective, but isn't this somewhere where we could make things easier for ourselves by just trusting to common sense? Again, are there any specific examples or incidents you have in mind?

    I support Chyntuck 's suggestions too. Making story linking OK in some resource threads and not in others just seems like multiplying entities beyond necessity. Keeping the rules as simple as possible will make them all the easier to follow and to enforce.

    Just my two cents once again; I am in no way trying to be disrespectful or argumentative just for argumentation's sake. I agree that this is a super community and an all-round wonderful bunch—which is why I feel the rules can be revised to show a little more trust in us.
     
    Kahara, jcgoble3, JadeLotus and 2 others like this.
  24. Briannakin

    Briannakin Grand Moff Darth Fanfic & Costuming/Props Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2010
    I agree that the fanfic FAQ need to be updated. It hasn’t been really revised since I’ve become a mod. It is something Mav and I will be looking at in the near future (IE streamlining the rules, making them clearer and reviewing some of the stuff that maybe is no longer needed). There is some “well duh” stuff that can be put further down and some more common issues that need to be brought near the top.


    I am VERY strongly against having a blanket “allowing mentions of and linking to fics by default in ALL resource and character threads” both as a user and as a mod. I’ll put aside my linking vs just mentioning debate for now (and I’m willing to let go of it entirely, because, yeah, people are lazy and it does bring another layer of complication), but I do think different degrees of ‘pimping’, while somewhat more complicated, are better and everything needs to be categorized from the start.

    1. As we can see here, blanket rules do not work. That is why we are basically here right now. And default rules make people assume that the default rules apply everywhere.

    2. Mav and I, and all other mods, simply can’t just use our discretion when it comes to relevance. We need specific rules that we can point to as ‘back ups’. Mav and I are two very different people, we often will not make the same calls. Having clear, defined rules help us remain on the same page and will help any new mod coming in.

    3. Leaving it up to the thread runners will not work. We trust many of you guys and know that you will do self-policing, however, many of the resource threads are old and the original creators are no longer around. Saying the pet peeve thread falls under the rules for social threads is much easier than making individual calls on a per-post basis. Saying any new character/ship index and discussion thread falls under the existing rules for indexes makes things more uniform.

    I think, as a user, I just don’t want people discussing their fics in discussion threads (Ie the Fandom thread) the same way they would in challenge threads (ie the Diary Challenge).
     
  25. Chyntuck

    Chyntuck Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Just to be clear, I don't think anyone sought to imply that you've been telling people not to mention fics just for the heck of it, yes? We all know that you've been following the rules that are in place and we all think that you've been doing a stellar job at it. :)

    As for the rest, yes, there will always be a grey area but I can't agree that "it kinda works but kinda doesn't" should be our criterion here. People come to the fanfic boards to post fics and to read fics. They're here because they want to share fics. It just comes across as unreasonable to say that, "okay, you're here for the fics, you can read and write them but not talk about them because maybe someone will manage to skirt the rules in such a way that we won't have a strong argument to tell them off." Furthermore, that's what mod discretion is for in the first place. People know very well what "relevance" means and you don't need anything more than your status as a mod to say "this is irrelevant."

    That was my evening two drachmas, which brings us up to approx 1 cent of a Euro in total, so we may be on our way to becoming wiser but we certainly won't become rich with all this :p
     
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