Plot hole in the saga?

In ESB, it was said by obiwan himself that luke should go to "yoda, the jedi master who instructed me." But Yoda did NOT instruct obi... it was Qui-Jon. Is this a plot hole by lucas in the PT? And there is no possible way lucas can make it right in E3, so there it is. Also, in ANH obiwan told luke that he took it upon himself to train anakin... but if you all remember he was against training anakin up until the death of qui-jon. It was actually qui-jon who took it upon himself to train young anakin, but obviously died and obiwan trained anakin. Now it really doesn't do much to really affect star wars as a whole, but these are plot holes in my opinion. does anyone else see this?

 

*sigh*

 

*sigh*

I've posted and posted and posted about this on these forums. Yoda did instruct Obi-Wan. This is evident in TPM at with one of the first lines of the movie: "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." Therefore, Yoda instructed him to be mindful of the future. He instructed Obi-Wan in AOTC when telling him what his mission would consist of. I'm sure after Anakin's turn, he instructed him. Yoda is full of instructions.

 

I agree, jedi_master_ousley, and also it says in the EU that Yoda trains all the Younglings, until they reach the age where they are picked by a Master to be a Padawan. So, essentially, Yoda instruts all the Jedi, whether they be young or old.

~Obischick~

 

No sighing please, I'm Australian.

And these two above me have it spot on, Yoda instructs all the Jedi as younglings as we saw in AotC. From a certain point of view, all the Jedi are Yoda's Padawan's, Obi-Wan included.

The only Jedi not to be trained by Yoda in some respect is Anakin Skywalker, who went straight to being Obi-Wan Kenobi's apprentice. Even then, it's entirely possible that Yoda gave him tuition off-screen.

 

Yoda doesn't personally instruct all groups of younglings like we see in Episode II, but he certainly instructs all Jedi personally until a certain point, when they are chosen by a Master (before the age of 13), and are still given instructions by Yoda until the day they die.

 

ok, yoda did NOT instruct obiwan... it was qui-jon. i mean come on people, we all saw it in tmp. He's the one who took him as his padawan learner, not yoda. Yoda took count dooku as was said in aotc. How you guys explained it is kinda vague.. just cause yoda MIGHT have taught him as a child doesn't take away that qui-jon was the one who took obiwan as his padawan learner... NOT yoda.
And then there's the whole "I took it upon myself" line by obi-wan, which he DIDN'T! Qui-Jon took it upon himself, obiwan was only doing it because qui-jon asked him too. Come on people, I love star wars to death... but lucas did make a mistake with both things.

 

Instruct:

1) To provide with knowledge, especially in a methodical way.

2) To give orders to; direct.

OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...

OBI-WAN: Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council, if I must.

 

Im not talking about instructing as in giving orders or being the boss. Im talking about instruct as a teacher. Yoda might have been the "principal" calling all the shots, but Qui-Jon was the "teacher" teaching obiwan the ways of the force. As far as obiwas calling yoda "master" yoda, its just a form a respect. He's a master Jedi.. and the top dawg of the jedis... its just proper to call him "master" yoda since he's a "master" jedi.
And what about obiwan "taking it upon myself?" No one has tried to rebut that one cause its a mistake by lucas. Its obvious he made a mistake... and I mean we're all human and its ok to make mistakes. Im just pointing out the fact that the saga has conflicting strories.

 

So, you only had one teacher the whole time you were in school?

Sounds to me like instead of realizing the fact that more than one person can instruct someone, you'd rather assume that Jedi can only have one person ever teach them anything.

Even if there had not been the Bear Clan scene, the line in The Empire Strikes Back was "You will go to the Dagobah system. There will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." can be explained pretty easily.

Even if Attack of the Clones did not exist, it's still obvious in The Phantom Menace that Yoda taught Jedi too.

"But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." What more proof do you need that Yoda instructed him.

Well, if still somehow have doubts, there's always the fact that Yoda and Mace are the leaders of the Jedi Council, and if Yoda did not instruct Jedi, the whole Council thing would be pointless.

But then you get to Attack of the Clones, and we see something that pretty much anyone could infer anyway -- Yoda teaches the Jedi when they are kids. Instead of a Master taking on an Apprentice when they are young, the students learn all about the Force and go through training while they are young.

Also, remember Yoda's line in ESB... "For 800 years have I trained Jedi." While that was a rounded number, it's still pretty accurate. He says right there that he's been training Jedi for a long time.

I honestly don't see how people can counter the obvious with arguements putting down George Lucas just so they can be right, instead of inferring things from the movies and picking up the clues for themselves.

In addition:

"But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future."

My emphasis is not that he calls him master.

Look at the statement. First, it says that Yoda says he should do something, which means he's been giving instructions. Second, he doesn't say "we should be mindful" he says "I should be mindful." That means that Yoda told him personally that he should be mindful of the future. Had he said "we," he could have meant him and Qui-Gon, or all the Jedi as a whole.

It's because of this that it infers that Yoda has taught him something before, being Obi-Wan's instructor, even if for one lesson at minimun. But we know that there was more than just that one lesson.

Then of course you have Yoda leading the Jedi Council, and the council counsels people, giving advice and instruction.

See what I'm trying to say? The whole Bear Clan scene in Episode II wasn't even needed to explain this, because everything you needed to know was right there in Episode I, even with the Qui-Gon being his Master at the time controvsery.

But, since obviously he knew there were a lot of questions about this, he added in the Bear Clan scene to Episode II to hopefully show people that Yoda did in fact instruct the students when they were younger, and then once they get close to the coming of "Jedi age" as I call it, close to the age of 13, they can be taken on as an apprentice and recieve one-on-one training instead of being in a large group, which is more beneficial to their individual needs.

Of course, this still didn't seem to work in some cases, but for the most part people have figured it out.

Yoda might have been the "principal" calling all the shots, but Qui-Jon was the "teacher" teaching obiwan the ways of the force.

Yoda taught Obi-Wan in the ways of the Force too. He's the head of the Jedi Council, and the whole point of the Council is to teach Jedi in the ways of the Force, and instruct them of what to do.

As to "I took it upon myself..." you obviously did not watch TPM closely enough. After Qui-Gon died, yes, he followed Qui-Gon's request to train Anakin, but he didn't have to. He thought he could train Anakin better than Yoda did, as he said in Episode VI. It doesn't matter if it was by request or not, he still took it upon himself.

 

Now what does instruct mean: To provide with knowledge, to prepare, to give orders to, direct especially in a methodical way. So Yoda did instruct Obi-Wan and even Qui-Gon in TPM and AOTC.

I think of it this way, many people have several teacher's in schools and jobs. Now what if although you spent more time with one teacher but that one was not around. While another teacher who also taught you but probably didn't spend as much time with you as the other one, but he/she can still help. What purpose does it serve to talk about the one that was around longer with you, but they are not around to help. While the other one is around and able to help you with what you need.

It doesn't matter that he was taught by Yoda at a young age while Qui-Gon was his real Master. You seem to forget that Qui-Gon is dead, while yoda is alive. Qui-Gon can't help Luke, so Obi-Wan goes to the next best thing Yoda who is alive.

As for the remark about Obi-Wan taking it upon himself, he is right we are all free moral agents who are able to make choices. Obi-Wan made a choice, he didn't have to listen to Qui-Gon he could have listened to the Council or he could have asked someone with more experience to teach Anakin. Remember, Obi-Wan never taught anyone yet his master just died then he asked for Anakin to be his student.

Although Obi-Wan was originally against training him, people can change there minds can they.

Edit: jedi_master_ousley: great minds think alike. Used the Yahoo dictionary too or no.

 

Ok... you bring up some interesting points. Yes, I can see how yoda is in the council and he does give other jedi advice and instructions and all that. And yes, PERHAPS he MIGHT HAVE taught obiwan as a child so therefor you would have credence in your argument. BUT, the point I was trying to make is this. Of course you have more than one teacher in your life... but lets take this outta the school ring. If I go and take lessons in Kung Fu, I will have ONE sensai (spelling?) which will train me till I am ready to be on my own. Of course there will be other sensais and people on a council like board who will instruct me as well... but i will still have ONE sensai. Now apply that to star wars. Qui-Jon is Obiwan's sensai... he taught him how to weild the force. I mean, Qui-Jon was the one who even said that obiwan was "head-strong and ready for the trials. There's little more he can learn from ME" NOT Yoda! Alright.. i'll give you that yoda did instruct obiwan in a sense... but it was Qui_jon who TAUGHT obiwan, not yoda.
Taking it upon yourself to do something implies NO ONE asks you to do it. If my mom asks me to take the garbage outside, I did NOT take it upon myself to do it.. i was asked and followed an order. Now, if I just decide to take the garbage WITHOUT BEING ASKED, then I took it upon myself. Qui-Jon asked Obiwan to train anakin... and yes obiwan did train him... but at the request of Qui-Jon. He even said at the end of TPM "I gave Qui_jon my word" to Yoda. Sorry bro, I'll give you the whole intructed part (reluctantly though), but with this conflict you have no credence what so ever. Sorry dude, got me to cave in one, but not the latter.

 

Yeah, You made a valid point I'm going to have to agree with you on that "taking it upon myself" point. Now I'm beginning to question it.

 

And yes, PERHAPS he MIGHT HAVE taught obiwan as a child so therefor you would have credence in your argument.

If you have read any of the EU that came out after TPM, but was set in the time period before Episode I, it's blatently obvious that Yoda trained Obi-Wan when he was younger. Even without that, you can still tell from the films.

If I go and take lessons in Kung Fu, I will have ONE sensai (spelling?) which will train me till I am ready to be on my own.

I took karate for a while, and there was more than one sensai training everyone. Perhaps Kung Fun is different, though I woudl imagine that more than one sensai trains someone.

Qui-Jon is Obiwan's sensai...

One of his sensias....

he taught him how to weild the force. I mean, Qui-Jon was the one who even said that obiwan was "head-strong and ready for the trials. There's little more he can learn from ME" NOT Yoda!

Qui-Gon instructed him with all that Qui-Gon could ... he was Obi-Wan's master since 2-3 weeks before Obi-Wan's 13th birthday.

but it was Qui_jon who TAUGHT obiwan, not yoda.

You're saying Yoda could have never taught him anything?

I'll get back with you on the taking it upon himself to do it later, I have to get offline in a couple minutes.

 

dude, of course yoda could have taught obiwan something. But just because you teach someone something doesn't mean your their teacher. I mean, how many times did a teacher at school help me with a problem that I had trouble with. Are they my teacher? No... they taught me something of course, helped me out and answered my questions, but they were not my teacher. Perfect example. I played soccer in high school, thus I had a coach. Now, this guy was my coach.. but I had this one neighbor who played soccer since he was a kid and still does. So he would give me some tips and even play some one on one with me to get my skills up. I love the guy to death for helping me along the way, and he taught me a WHOLE LOT! But he was NOT my coach. I learned the majority of my skills by practicing at practice with all his drills and plays. My neighbor did teach me a few things.. but he was still NOT my instructor. Get me? Yoda might have very well taught Obiwan a thing or two down the road, you would be stupid not to acknowldge that. But that still doesn't make yoda Obiwan's teacher. Did Yoda teach and instruct Obiwan... perhaps and most likely. Was Yoda Obiwan's instructor? Absolutely NOT because it was Qui-Jon who spent time with him and showed him the ways of the force in-depth.

As far as the "I take it upon myself" line, i stand by what I said. There is no real excuse you can come up with or say that will make me believe lucas did not mess up in that one. Sorry.

BTW... im not like a star wars hater. Im a star wars junkie, but im just voicing my opinion cause I know Lucas is NOT perfect and he has made mistakes in the sage (ie Jar Jar and Jake Loyd).

 

While I agree with and accept the EU indications and PT suggestions that Yoda trained Obi-Wan, I agree with what ELoZuZ is saying.
In general, before the PT existed, taken solely on what was presented in the OT, it was Yoda and only Yoda that trained Obi-Wan. Now the PT comes along and presents us with an alternate version of the story. What we're left with unfortunately, is an inconsistancy between the PT and OT (and YES, it IS inconsistant to a degree).

In the end, when there's an inconsistancy between the PT and OT we cannot assert that one is correct over the other, but rather accept that both must be true.

I think it's crappy story telling, but what can you do?

 

The Yoda and the Younglings scene in AOTC solves the "plot hole" in that Obi-Wan was taught by Yoda as a Youngling before being taken in by Qui-Gon as a padawan. This is further supported by Obi-Wan's comment in the beginning of TPM.

I think it's crappy story telling, but what can you do?

No it's not. Obi-Wan doesn't need to tell Luke about Qui-Gon, cause he's dead, and Yoda is still alive and still able to help Luke. Obi-Wan doesn't need to tell Luke his whole life story when he's freezing to death.
Now that would have been crappy storytelling.

 

FINALLY! Thank you K-Man for what you said. Someone has FINALLY seen that their is inconsistancy in the story -telling and transition between the PT and OT. We're not taking anything away from the greatness of the saga (or else we wouldn't be in a STAR WARS FORUM), we're just acknowleding the inconsistancy in the saga. If I told you, go to John Doe... he taught me and he can teach you. Then outta nowhere im telling you my past and I tell you I spent most of my time learning with this dude named Ken. You would think my story is inconsistant with what I told you and would think Im a lier. Get my drift? Not taking ANYTHING away from star wars cause I love the movies (as well as the EU which i HAVE read and played), but Lucas did mess up. And people who don't see this need to stop holding Lucas as some sort of divine figure and realize he is a HUMAN BEING who makes mistakes. And Im not blamming him either, Im just pointing it out, thats all.

 

And what purpose would Obi-Wan mentioning Qui-Gon serve in the OT? He doesn't participate in Luke's training as a ghost, or actively play any part in the events of the OT.

 

What Obi-Wan said about Anakin's training was true: from a certain point of view.

He could have let Yoda train him, but he took it upon himself to train Anakin, he trained Anakin himself, placing the burden on himself. Sure, it was a sort of death wish thing, but that doesn't negate the fact that he accepted the burden.

 

yes, obiwan did train anakin. No, he did not take it upon himself though. He was just obeying his master's wish. Imagine, Osama bin Laden is in your neighborhood after 9/11 and you take it upon yourself to stick a plane up his you know what. Did someone tell you to do that? No, you took it upon yourself to do what you have to do cause you want to. Now, imagine some dude is walking down the street and someone close to you tells you he's a terrorist and to call 911. Did you take it upon yourself? No, because someone asked you too. Would you have called 911 without prior knowledge or your friend asking you too? Probably not. Would Obiwan have taught Anakin if Qui-Jon never met Anakin? Probably not cause it wasn't even Obiwan who came in contact with Anakin in the first place.. PLUS he was AGAINST training him to begin with! What Obiwan did was a DIRECT result of Qui-Jon asking Obiwan to promise him.. thats not taking it upon himself.. that's granting someone's dying wish.

Takeing upon one's self involves free will without being asked. Obiwan was asked therefore it negates taking it upon himself if it was a direct wish from someone else. Did he train him out of his own free will? Yes. Would he have trained anakin without Qui-Jon asking Obiwan.. probably not.

As far as Qui-Jon's relevance in the OT.. your right there is no relevance. Which is EXACTLY where the inconsistancy is. It doesn't matter who taught obiwan, as long as its consistant. Don't tell me someone taught me just because the other guy wasn't mentioned in the OT. Its inconsistant.. sorry.

 

There is no inconsistency. Yoda taught Obi-Wan for the first 13 years of his life, then Qui-Gon took over. You're making this much more difficult than it needs to be.

 

Pretty much everybody has told you.

It is shown in AOTC that Yoda teaches ALL the Jedi when they are younglings. Even after that, you see in the PT that Kenobi seeks Yoda's advice and that Yoda teaches him.

 

Yoda instructed everyone at one time. Like Dooku. Yoda did not train him as a padawan, but in the Bear Clan. Yoda has taught nearly every Jedi in the last couple hundred years at some point.

 

If you are walking down the street with a friend or relative and happen to meet a formet teacher, it would be just as valid to introduce them as "This is Mr/Mrs ________, he/she was my teacher" as it would be to say, "This is Mr/Mrs _________, he/she was one of my teachers." assuming that you have had more than one teacher in your lifetime.

It was much easier for Obi-wan to use the former form when speaking of Yoda, because it doesn't encourage questions like "Well, if she/he is was one of your teachers, then who are the others?" and its much easier to say.

As for Obi-Wan saying that he took it upon himself to train Anakin...well, he DID! He could just as easily have put Anakin into one of the bear clan-type classes, or let some other master or knight take Anakin as their padawan, but instead Obi-wan took the responsibility, carried out his master's dying wish, and made the sacrifice that was necessary to take Anakin as his padawan. Its not like he was assigned or required to take Anakin as a padawan, or even to teach him anything.