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PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yes he is. The payment for them is the entire winnings, which as Anakin points out more than pays for the parts. The deal is so simple, even to a 9 year old.
    No one said it was. This thread isn’t just about plot holes. It’s also about inconsistencies & errors. This one is a very minor script error.
    Good point. Just adds to the absurdity of the Jedi bringing the clones into their ranks. Obi-Wan is told that Jango is the template. He then sees that he works for Dooku. Yoda confirms that Dooku has turned to the DS. He’s sporting a red lightsaber & shoots lightning from his hands. Yet they just go along with it all. Walking blindly towards their destruction like lemmings off a cliff. Idiots. Luke was spot on in TLJ. Talk about a legacy of failure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  2. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    And the parts come out of that deal , so that puts their cost as a minus . All the winnings minus whatever the parts would cost . C'mon DD its easy .

    .
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    "Many problems"? The 'problem' as it's constructed would seem to be fairly simple. Noticeably the above merely dismisses the answer while being devoid of actual content, declining to explain how the answer is insufficient.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I get what you're saying & I get what QG meant. Doesn't changed the fact that it's poorly & incorrectly written. Like I said, this is a minor flaw in the dialogue. It didn't warrant a drawn out discussion.
    It linked to all of the answers. Up to you if you wish to read it. I've had that conversation too many times to repeat it again.
    Those "rules" are quite messily presented in the movie. Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan are introduced to the TF as ambassadors of the Chancellor. It seems this was some kind of secret clandestine mission that Valorum himself initiated. Who knows whether the Jedi Council were even aware of the decision. The crawl says the Valorum "secretly dispatched" the two Jedi. Who was he keeping it secret from? The Senate, the Jedi Council, the TF, or all of the above? Either way it makes little sense since the TF could identify them as Jedi as soon as they stepped off their ship. Also, the TF has (for some strange reason) their own Senator in the Senate. So the Senate via the TF Senator would also know of Valorum's "secret" mission as soon as the Jedi arrive on the ship. It's unclear what the point of the secret was, except perhaps to catch the TF off guard by the arrival of Jedi. What's certain is that no consequences are ever addressed for (a) Valorum's secret mission becoming known by everyone, or (b) the TF trying to murder two ambassadors of the Chancellor. Then there's the question of why Valorum doesn't use his ambassadors who've just returned from Naboo to testify as to "the validity of the claims of the representatives from Naboo". Instead he asks that another delegation be sent all the way back to Naboo! Finally, all of this throws a lot of confusion on the relationship between the Jedi, the Senate & the Chancellor. The following PT movies make a big deal about the separation of power between the Jedi & the Chancellor. The leaders of the Jedi are adamant that the Chancellor cannot direct them. Or interfere in any way in Jedi activities. That they serve the Senate, not its leader. Yet Valorum can "secretly dispatch" Jedi. I'm sure Palpatine wishes he had the power to send Jedi off on potentially dangerous missions. Who would've thought that Valorum had more power than the future Emperor, at least in some respects. I've included this here bcs while not quite a plot hole, it's definitely a glaring inconsistency when you view the PT as a whole.
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    I don't find this evasiveness convincing. Perhaps the "many problems" are imaginary creatures after all.
     
  6. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    LOL! [face_laugh] you couldn't have said that with a straight face .
     
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  7. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    • I think that ROTS should've addressed the Clone Army mystery, and it retroactively hurts AOTC by being left to the viewers imaginations, but there really is no plot hole there...in AOTC at least. Obi-Wan stumbles upon this army either by design or coincidence it doesn't really matter, but Jango being the template does raise red flags and isn't brushed over. They want to question him, but are never given the opportunity. However, it would be quite the conspiracy theory on the level of the JFK assassination to assume that this army that had proven itself in battle after being vetted by Yoda would suddenly turn on the Jedi despite obeying their every order without question. Yes, ROTS should've addressed this mystery to give it closure but in AOTC the Republic is desperate, Obi is in trouble and everyone is forced into a corner. It's very possible that Jango is assumed to be playing both sides to profit from the impending war. PERHAPS that's why he was trying to have Padme killed to put the war into motion. Bounty Hunter's loyalty is to the highest bidder, so him being in cahoots with Dooku doesn't mean that the Clone Army is a product of a grand conspiracy to eradicate the Jedi. It just sounds absurd, unless you're of course the audience and privy to all the facts.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The mystery was addressed in AOTC when we learn that Dooku is Tyranus and that this was part of the Sith plot. ROTS just confirms if further when Palpatine issues Order 66 and the Clonetroopers comply.
     
  9. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    Right...but I think we needed more closure from the Jedi perspective. Perhaps mentioning of an ongoing investigation. It isn't the biggest deal in the world to me, because obviously the Clone Wars take precedence, but it does irk me that that issue seems to be dropped in ROTS.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi do get closure in that regard once Order 66 has come and gone.
     
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  11. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2014
    Yeah, I suppose they do. :(
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm bringing this over here.

    Padme's plan hinged on being able to get past the shields and being able to disable the transmitter that is controlling the Droid Army. As in destroying the external transmitter dish.

    [​IMG]

    The plan was never to fly inside as Anakin did and destroy the entire ship. If the N-1 Fighters took out the transmitter dish, then Nute would realize that the Droid Army was disabled and would try to flee to his shuttle that he and Rune used to land in Theed, in order to escape. Which was why it was imperative for Padme and her team to reach the throne room before Nute and Rune could make a run for it, once the Droid Army was disabled. Thus the plan is sound. It just winds up working out better than hoped for because of Anakin.
     
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    A plan to destroy the linchpin of the enemies attacking threat is not that clever. It's the only plan other than surrender or run away.

    A plan FOR destroying the droid control ship is another matter. It does not seem like there was one except just hurl fighters at it with no specific tactics for disabling the transmitter etc.
     
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Also, when Padme decided to return to Naboo, she did NOT know;
    1) That the blockade was gone.
    2) That only one control ship was there. If two had been there then plan fails.
    3) That the Gungans would be still at large.
    4) That two Jedi would come with her.
    5) That the TF would be kind enough to leave the fueled and armed Naboo fighters alone in the palace they control. They were even kind enough to pre-program the auto pilot so that the fighters would fly up to the droid ship.
    6) That Nute would still be there. Consider, he was there for the blockade and oversee the invasion. But now that is done, they control Naboo. Why should he still be there? It is unlikely that he would expect Padme to come back so that he could capture and force her to sign the treaty.
    Once they have total control of the planet, nothing much else happens. So why would he sit there and not go home and deal with more urgent matters?
    Or what happens if he is up in the ship?

    In short, the plan, if she had one on Coruscant would be reliant on a lot that she could not know.
    Once there and luck had smiled on her and the TF had been very helpful, the plan is a little better but still a bit iffy.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  15. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 7, 2014
    1. A rational assumption. The blockade was to prevent trade to Naboo. The TF now owns the planet, and thus would no longer need a full blockade. Thus, they redeployed the extraneous battleships, keeping just one to oversee the Droid defences.

    2. I suppose if there had been 2, the plan would've just been to try and knock out both. But why would they need 2? For the greedy TF, that seems like a waste of resources, to double bank an occupied world.

    3. That's just a guess on Padme's part, relying on Jar-Jar's comments about them having an army. Then they search Otoh-Gunga and find the Gungan holy site. Presumably, had the Gungans been captured or wiped out prematurely, Padme's plan would have failed. But the whole reason she was spurred to return was her hope in the Gungans.

    4. Not really relevant to her plan. Sure, Maul would have probably defeated her in the hangar, but how was she supposed to plan for that? Would she just have given up without the two jedi? She still would've tried to liberate her people, and the basics of her plan doesn't rely on the Jedi at all, just the pilots and the Gungan army.

    5. Were the TF expected to drain the fuel in the fighters in the few days since they took over? Seems like an oddly specific thing for them to do, when they have a whole planet to subdue. They're pre-occupied moving people into camps, and hunting the Gungans to bother unfuelling some ships. Why would they even bother? Presumably there long-term planning involves making Naboo a part of the TF, and all the assets will be theirs anyway. As for the autopilot, we have no idea when it was set, so maybe Ric Olie just programmed it for his crew once they broke into the hangar. Or perhaps it's pre-programmed to respond to threats above Naboo?

    6. The last Padme saw of Nute he was settling in to the palace, and Sio Bibble's message implied that Nute was still there dealing with the occupation. He still has to deal with resistance like the Gungans and police forces. It's also only been a few days, so there's probably a lot he has to do to stabilise the rule of the planet (such as draining the fighter's fuel for example o_O). Once Padme presents the plan, she seems pretty confident that Nute is still in the palace, but if he had been on the Control ship, that would have just simplified the plan, removing the 'capture the viceroy' portion.
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Naboo doesn't have an extensive military force here. All they have is a local defense network which is only armed with standard issue blasters and fifteen N-1 Starfighters. They're not the Grand Army of the Republic.

    True, she didn't know that. She was fortunate enough to find that the blockade was removed because all of the Naboo ships had been grounded and that the war was essentially over. The planet was on lockdown now.

    At best she believed that the Gungans could repel an attack. Or at least they weren't known to the Federation.

    She was going to go through with the plan, with or without their help.

    The N-1 Fighters weren't pre-programmed by the Federation, but by Ric Oile, who once he got in his ship, had the coordinates sent out to all fifteen fighters. There's no reason to remove the Fighters since the pilots had fled to Coruscant and everyone else was locked up.

    There's no reason for him to leave. He'd stay there to remain in charge of the planet. What matters would be more urgent than the occupation of a planet that was taken control of by him?

    Not much. The transmitter is destroyed, he won't have his Vulture Droids to protect him and all that's left are the turbolasers. Bravo Squadron can disable them and then get inside. Nute could run, which would still be good since that ends the invasion and buys enough time for Palpatine to take control of the Senate and settle things.

    PANAKA: "The blockade's gone."

    OBI-WAN: "The war's over...No need for it now."
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So you're saying she didn't have much of a plan. Just a hope.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  18. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 7, 2014
    "Plans are built on hope!" ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    She had the bare bones of a plan when she left Coruscant. The plan was solidified once she got to Naboo and all the pieces were in place. Hence she holds a briefing based the Gungans being around and willing to help, the number of troops who weren't captured and the presence of two Jedi. And as darkspine pointed out, there was no solid plan for the crew of the Rogue One when they went to Scariff. They made one after arriving.
     
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Nobody's claiming Rogue One were clever planners. I was consciously making the connection between them, as Darkspine acknowledged.

    I think people often forget that posters aren't criticising the characters but challenging the undue platitudes that get imposed on them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  21. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except, the TF deny that an invasion has happened so it is in their interest to make it look like nothing happened.
    If they remove the ships and someone notices, that could lead to questions.
    Also, since they are apparently doing slow-motion genocide by putting the entire population in camps and letting them starve to death then they would want to keep other ships from seeing this.
    And those ships had to come back and pick up the droids at some point anyway.
    Lastly, Padme had escaped so the TF could not know for sure what would happen next.
    If she got help and came back, then removing the blockade is not smart.

    Because having one weak spot that knocks out your whole army is stupid.
    The film does not establish that those ships were needed anywhere else so what is the harm of keeping some there?

    So her plan rested on things that she didn't know.

    Did Qui-Gon tell her about the person that attacked him on Tatooine?
    I would imagine so, several people saw it and even if she didn't, she would likely be told.
    Qui-Gon figure that Maul was after her, why would he keep that to himself?
    So Padme very likely knows that a sith lord is after her and with no Jedi to stop him, her chances are slim.

    When invading another country, securing or neutralizing the enemy's military hardware is pretty basic strategy. If there is resistance, it isn't very smart to leave tanks, fighters or weapons just lying around for anyone to take.

    Why bother with de-fueling, simply trash them.
    The TF don't need them.
    Also, they have an army, delegating this would not be hard. It would take one person plus ten droids maybe an hour to trash those ships.
    With an auto-pilot, it is even easier. Program them to fly up up and away, problem solved.

    As for using Naboo, according to some posters here, the TF are starving the whole population to death.
    So the end goal seemed to be to wipe out the whole population, probably many million if not billions of people. So they would get a planet full of corpses.

    And we are dealing with what Padme knows, she has no idea what the TF has done with these fighters when she decided to come back.

    [/QUOTE]

    Obi-Wan warned that the message was fake, so using that is iffy.
    If it has only been a few days, why is the TF in such a rush to withdraw their ships?
    Nothing is established that they are needed elsewhere.
    And if there is still resistance, people to deal with and so on, then withdrawing all but one of your ships is stupid.
    So if the Gungans avoid capture by leaving their cities, the TF would notice that the cities are empty and that the people had hide themselves elsewhere. And keep looking.
    So if Nute still has problems to deal with, pockets of resistance, enemy soldiers hiding, etc.
    Then removing all those ships makes no sense.
    Plus Nute is a bit of a coward, I could see him wanting the extra security.

    In closing, the whole thing is contrived, Padme decides to go back and events line up to greatly help her.
    Blockade is gone, the TF ignore the fighters, and so on.
    Plus the Jedi only sending two people to deal with a important situation and yet taking a small kid along.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    So I didn't see Darth Sidious talk to Nute and tell him that Padme was on her way back to Naboo? Nute knew what was going on because Sidious told him what was what and gave him the order to remove the fleet of cruisers, leaving only the one control ship. If there was a danger of multiple Jedi being sent, he would have enough time to warn Nute to haul ass off of Naboo.

    That weak spot was intentional by Lucas, not just as cheap means of ending the battle or recreating Luke's heroic moment, but to demonstrate the weakness of a Droid Army compared to a Clone Army.

    She had the structure of a plan. She needed the meat and potatoes which she could only get by going to Naboo and see what assets she had to work with.

    She knows about the attack on Tatooine, but she probably doesn't know who or what it was that attacked him. Anything else doesn't matter because by the time she decides to go back to Naboo, the Jedi Council have decided to send her Jedi protectors with her.

    Nope. They're starving the populace in order to force Padme into returning. It is her penance for leaving. Once she comes back and signs the treaty, they'll be properly fed again.

    No, he didn't. He warned that it was a trap and to not send a reply. He does ask Qui-gon if it is real, what does it mean. We know that the message is real because Nute reminds Bibble that his people are starving to death.

    NUTE: "Your Queen is lost, your people are starving... and you, Governor, are going to die...much sooner than your people, I'm afraid."

    All of the spaceports are on lockdown. No ships will be leaving the planet, hence no need for a blockade of ships. If they know that there are pockets of resistance, they're not worried because they're not enough against the might of the Droid Army.

    Palpatine gives the orders, not Nute. He'd sense his deception and choke him for his insolence.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It was a clear callback to Luke's heroic moment in ANH. TFA did it again in the first of the ST. Don't be ridiculous.

    This isn't shown in the film. You are just making it up.
     
  24. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Wait, aren’t we forgetting the scene where R2 showed the layout of the palace and Padmé went over the plans?
     
  25. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    JJB tells her the gungans have a grand army and are prepared to fight right before she announces to Palpatine that she intends to go back , then on the way back she calls Binks and asks him for help . . .
    Clearly her plan is to team up with the gungans .
    .