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PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by janstett, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I think the force guided Anakin there (to the droid-controlship). And don't forget, technically Qui-Gon (an arguable conduit of the force) put him in that cockpit.

    It makes a nice inversion of ROTS that Anakin is being used quite passively and selflessly to help out the good guys in TPM, where he will help "end the war" by force in ROTS and solidify the formation of the Empire.
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin trusted his instincts on when to swerve and bank, as he was flying the N-1 Fighter. Qui-gon taught him to feel, not think and did that. That's why he saved the day as he did. And really, who is going to argue about a nine year old boy tagging along, when they're being lead by a fourteen year old girl?
     
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  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Except that Qui Gon states explicitly that the purpose of them going to Coruscant (he, Obi-Wan and Anakin) is not to fight in their battle. The only reason Anakin is there in the first place is because the Jedi order have rejected him and Qui Gon is stuck with him. Anakin is only allowed to sit in that spare cockpit because it's they best they can come up with to protect Anakin from the battle that's going on around them in the hangar.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    That's the logical reason, I'm not disputing that. It's part of the reason I used the qualifier "technically".
    But use your imagination. Qui-Gon speaks of the force's will and Obi-Wan states in ANH "In my experience there is no such thing as luck".

    Anakin was meant to be in that battle, it's the will of the force. That's my reading of it anyway.

    It makes sense that, as the "chosen one", Anakin's presence alone saves the day for the good guys.
    The irony is that the victory is partially an illusion, any victory for the Republic is tragically a victory for the future Empire. It is fitting that Anakin shuts down the droids twice in the series; in TPM accidentally, which brings peace to Naboo... in ROTS imposing his own will on the force for selfish gain when he slaughters the Separatist leaders and orders the droid armies shut down himself.
     
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  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    By that token, I can imagine that the downfall of democracy and the slaughter of the Jedi was the will of the force
     
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But to me, invoking "The Force did it!" every time a character does something that makes little sense or events happen that make no sense.
    That is not a good explanation.
    It is the same as saying "A Wizard did it!"
    And to me, it does not not encourage good writing as the writer can just use this as an excuse all the time and not bother with coming up with reasons why characters does things.

    That the Force can in some ways influence events, fine, but not to the extent that it robs the characters of their own motivation and agency.
    Or ability to think.
    If characters only do things because the Force tells them to, then they become drones and not very interesting.

    Also, even if you want to say that Qui-Gon thinks this and this is why he brings Anakin along.
    It doesn't explain why no other character comments on this, like Padme or Obi-Wan.
    Neither of them say "Do you think it is safe to bring a small boy into a war-zone?"
    And I can understand why they don't. Because this will draw attention to this not very smart thing and Lucas just glosses over it, in the hope that the audience doesn't think too much about it.

    To sum up, if you do this too much, you run the risk of having an Idiot Plot.
    Star Trek V is a good example of this, the plot makes no sense in any way and characters do things just to service this Idiot Plot, or rather, Shatner's ego.
    We have a hostage situation, with Klingons, Romulans and Federation people.
    And they send Kirk, in a ship that is totally broken, nothing works.
    And they know that the Klingons are likely to send people as well and since they hate Kirk, they will likely try to kill him. Which is made easier since his ship is broken.
    They try to justify this by saying that they have other ships but no experienced commanders.
    So have Kirk and co meet with one of those ships and take command of THAT ship, this is not difficult.
    And the villain makes no sense either, he has a power that can make anyone, do basically anything after one short talk. So why does he bother with this hostage thing when he can just use this power and work his way up the ranks in Star Fleet until an admiral GIVES him a ship?
    The film suffers from Shatner's ego and his need to boos his character at the expense of everyone else and it is fairly insulting how it treats some of the series regulars.

    Moving on.
    1) No, what is said IN the film is Qui-Gon saying that he can only protect her, not fight a war for her.
    Which is him saying that one, or two if you count Obi-Wan, Jeid can't fight the whole TF army and fleet by themselves.
    That bit makes sense. If two Jedi can beat 10 000 battle droids like that, then they are way over-powered and almost God-like.

    What is also said is that they should protect Padme AND deal with Maul.
    Padme is going to Naboo, where there is a large TF army and said TF army will try to capture or kill her.
    Can just two Jedi stop them from doing that?
    Based on what Qui-Gon said, no.
    Maul, the person they are also after, he clearly works with the TF and can thus make use of the TF forces.
    So he can attack the Jedi and have 20 destroyer droids to help him.
    Did that thought ever enter their minds? Not likely.
    If Maul does show up, who will look after Padme, the person they are there to protect?
    Not answered.

    The Jedi are going into a situation where they don't know exactly what they will face or what exactly will happen. So the logical and sensible thing is to PREPARE. Even if they think that two Jedi can deal with just Maul, given the other factors involved, sending a few more as back up makes total sense.

    The rebels in ANH did not just send ONE fighter to blow up the DS.
    Only one was technically necessary but given that this was not very easy, they send up a lot of fighters to give themselves better odds of winning.
    It is likely that they send up as many fighters as they could, because holding back would look stupid.
    The Jedi in TPM seem to have Jedi to spare and yet they don't use them, why?
    The film doesn't bother to explain this.
    Making the Jedi either look stupid or the plot contrived. Or both.

    2) The Jedi normally take small children into war zones as part of their training?
    That makes the Jedi into monsters or morons.
    And Qui-Gon makes it clear that he only wants Anakin to find a safe place and hide, not to help in the battle or anything.
    So, since he should just hide and be safe, don't bring him to war!

    Also, Anakin is THE most valuable person in the galaxy, he is the ONLY one who can bring balance to the Force. If he caught a stray shot and died, all hope is gone.
    And if that did happen, I would imagine that Qui-Gon would feel terrible, not just for this but also towards Shmi. Whom had entrusted her only son to him and now he got that son killed in an entirely pointless way.

    And speaking of Anakin, he is the chosen one?
    So if he just waved his hand and the TF ship explode, that would be fine?
    He is the chosen one right, and the Force can do anything?

    Sorry, as I've said, my suspension of disbelief is not infinite.
    Luke had the Force too but he was 1, older, 2 had piloting experience and 3, knew what the controls were.
    He did not simply push buttons randomly and have the Force work things out.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Would the force's need for balance not dictate that it needs the Jedi to exist for balance to be achieved?
    All three trilogies seem to allude to this.
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Depending on your philosophical stances on determinism and free will, you could certainly argue that's the case. In fact, I believe that's a question the films themselves encourage you to ask.

    You've basically just identified the problem of evil.
     
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  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    As far as the Lucas saga goes the Bane Sith were the ones to put the Force out of balance (and they came from the Jedi) so the Jedi are the ones who ultimately started this particular iteration of being out of balance.

    So it's in essence about the evil in the Jedi themselves.

    Whatever anyone else did before that is another matter.

    As to what is going on in the ST who knows? Presumably they will tie it in with IX but so far the stakes are really unknown.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, what was more along the lines of a man going against the will of the Force for his own selfish desires.

    Padme's not alone in this. She's got a fifteen pilots and about a dozen security guards. The Council is aware of this. They would have to do if she chooses to engage in battle against the Federation. They cannot get more involved without the Senate's approval.

    Batman takes kids into war zones and lost two of them, with one being his own son. Granted, they came back to life, but they were put in harm's way. Would you call him a monster?

    But hide him where? On a ship that's going to be looked for? Or a swamp where the Gungans were hiding? He's left in the hangar to hide in a cockpit. That was pretty safe.

    That's why he told Anakin to get to somewhere safe as soon as they enter the hangar and stay there.

    No, he's not Neo. Yes, he does accidentally turn the ship on. And then he finds the controls to fire the weapons after sealing himself in. Then as soon as Artoo switches off the automatic pilot, he makes an effort to protect himself and to fight back. He starts to trust his instincts as to when to turn away from the fire and towards it.
     
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  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Except that the whole of Anakin's story is about the selfish choices that he makes (including not wanting to have done nothing about his mother's safety until it was too late, and then not wanting that mistake to happen again regarding anyone he has love for). It can be about that or it can be about evil being destined to take over the galaxy and Anakin serving evil in such a cowardly murderous way not his responsibility. Can't be both and have any meaning.

    You cannot eliminate evil, but you cannot justify such iniquities with "predestiny". The problem with evil is that it flourishes when good does nothing. Ergo, good did nothing.

    You need to follow the conversation more closely. I was replying to the poster who implied that seemingly good outcomes as a result of people making questionable choices must be the will of the force. By that token, the fall of darkness was also the will of the force. The Jedi's myopia and ineptitude was the will of the force.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Weren't those kids a lot older than 9 though - 14 to 18, the equivalent of a medieval squire, rather than a "page"?
     
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  13. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    You keep bringing things back up that have already been addressed by several users. The simple fact is we as an audience are not given the exact reasons, not in the movie. Which doesn't mean we can't use our imagination and come up with some sort of justification. Which is what I tried to do. You don't have to accept my explanation. What you keep ignoring is my question what more Jedi could have done against the TF army anyway when they don't even have fighters. I repeat that I don't remember seeing a single one before AOTC. So what were they supposed to do? Throw lightsabers into space at the control ship? The Naboo already had fighters and pilots. What other Jedi that we know of besides Anakin is shown to be a particularly good pilot? I don't remember any. The Naboo military could possibly have been more skilled fighter pilots than the average Jedi. And since they have only a limited number of fighters what good would extra pilots have been? Same with the ground battle. Lightsabers against heavy artillery and tanks? That would be like "bringing a knife to a gunfight". Since the Jedi realize they are no good in a real war against a real army they decide to create an army. That's the whole point of AOTC! I said that as well before. Remember the arena on Geonosis. There were dozens of Jedi involved, all hopelessly outgunned, as Dooku correctly said. It was the CLONE ARMY that saved them, not the Force and not their lightsabers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    More important question is - how is that situation even allowed to exist when it's the Jedi who are the guardians of peace and justice?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  15. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Exactly! The big question is not "why didn't they send more Jedi?" but "why didn't the Republic have a military in the first place?" Not so much as one single lousy starfighter! But that issue has also been discussed already.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    We don't even need to ask about the army.

    I was rather thinking why are the Jedi not equipped (or, seemingly, inclined) to deal with the TF's armies? Why are they hamstrung by the need for Senate approval to begin even investigating a potential misuse of power like this?
     
  17. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    The way I see it neither the Senate nor Jedi Council saw the need for a permanent army, simply because there have not been outside threats in the Republic's history. I don't know why they are not INCLINED, but they certainly weren't equipped. No offense against their lightsaber dueling skills and Force abilities, but you simply don't fight a war with just that, just not possible.
    I mean, medieval knights, samurai, or even fictional swordsmen like Aragorn or Conan, no matter how skilled they were with swords, would never stand a snowball's chance in hell against a modern army with machine guns, tanks, bombs, aircraft carriers etc.
    Same thing with the Jedi. There is a reason they are called "knights" and use no firearms. They were meant to be the SW counterparts of actual medieval knights and samurai. They were effective enough in a basically PEACEFUL society. But once a real war started they were hopelessly unprepared and under-equipped. The best swordsman in history can do zero when shot at with a gun. All lightsabers can do against firearms is deflect the occasional bolt, but that only works for a couple of seconds, and small numbers of shots. In the end most such fights in SW were won by the side with better firepower. The Jedi were always intentionally meant to be a sort of anachronism in a technology-oriented Galaxy. Good at giving wise advise, good when dueling single opponents who also only use a lightsaber, but no match for a military force that has shielded battle droids, droid starfighters, huge capital ships, tanks etc.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It actually can be both, just as real life is both. We haven't remotely solved the problem in real life, and real life seems to remain coherent enough to me--at least coherent enough to live some semblance of a meaningful life in. So I don't see why the same shouldn't hold true for a movie.

    Not all questions have clear answers. The sooner you learn to accept that, the happier you'll be, trust me.

    Because the Trade Federation's armies grew out of control due to a severe lack of regulation and oversight brought about by corporate bribery and political corruption. That's the whole problem that plays a major role in leading to the end of the Republic. Seriously, you're just looking at a story about a government that's grown dysfunctional and then bizarrely claiming that it's a plot hole that the government is portrayed as dysfunctional.

    I can imagine you watching a movie about the fall of the Roman Republic and then going on the Internet to gripe about how unrealistic it is that the Romans never took the obvious-in-hind-sight step of instituting a system of land reform to quell social unrest.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Dick Grayson was originally about nine, but later changed to being twelve when he became Robin. Jason Todd was thirteen. Tim Drake was thirteen, but turns fourteen just before his first mini series. Damian Wayne was ten. Jason was bludgeoned with a crowbar and then blown up, while Damian was shot with arrows and then run through with a sword by a deranged clone of himself. So, yeah, he'd be a monster. Especially after Jason's death, when Alfred and Dick and Tim beg him to take Tim on.

    Sure, you can say that the Robins were trained, but they were still kids taken into dangerous situations and no one says that this is a bad idea.
     
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  20. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    Plenty of classic adventure stories and myths have children going off into dangerous environs .
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    In most versions of "The Legend Of Zelda", Link is supposed to be eight years old when he goes to rescue Zelda from Gannondorf. And let's not forget Indiana Jones having Short Round going with him to Pankot.
     
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  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    You ignore several things;

    1) Take TPM on it's own, and it was released before AotC, so it was made to work independent of AotC.
    So we don't know that the Jedi don't have fighters. It is not established what they have or don't have, the issue is just ignored.
    The OT did exist and there we are told that the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace and Justice.
    And from that it is logical to assume that they had something more than just lightsabers to be able to do their job.
    Either the Jedi order had some military equipment, like fighters, or the republic had such things and the Jedi could get help from that.

    2) The issue here is that the Jedi send TWO jedi, one who is not even a knight, back to a planet they KNOW is occupied by a large hostile force.
    They send then there to PROTECT a person from that hostile force, which includes both soldiers and ships.
    They also go there in the hope to flush out a possible sith lord and find out more about him/capture him.

    3) The as far as the Jedi knew, the Naboo did NOT have fighters. Those were in the palace, that the TF was in control of and could have destroyed for all they knew.
    Besides themselves, the only force the Jedi knew Padme had was a handful of personal guards.

    4) And despite knowing all that, they send just two jedi and a small boy to a war zone.
    You keep saying, "what good would the jedi be against tanks etc?"
    Well, either the JC DID think that just two Jedi would be able to both protect Padme from all those things AND be able to flush out a possible sith lord and deal with him.
    OR, they are sending Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin to their deaths.
    Take your pick.
    If they thought that two or even twenty Jedi would be of no use against the TF army, then the logical thing for them to do is to let Padme go alone to her death. Sending any Jedi with her is wasting Jedi lives.
    Now you could go this route and have Qui-Gon decide, after talking with Padme, that he is going back with her anyway. He is established as someone that does not always listen to the council and he decides on his own to do this. It still has problems to be sure, like why is Anakin there.

    The issue here is the writing, it was totally possible to write TPM where the Jedi HAVE fighters and the Jedi decide to send some of those forces to help Padme. They realize the danger the TF posed, even though the Senate did not.
    Or, have Padme/the Jedi learn that the TF have withdrawn their blockade and most of their army from Naboo. They think that the battle is over and the planet is theirs so they leave a relatively small force to keep control of the planet.
    Now it makes more sense that Padme/the Jedi will go back with a small force as they know that they are not facing impossible odds.
    And that Padme knows that some Naboo have formed a small resistance group and they have some fighters etc.

    But Lucas did not want to be bothered with that and just glossed it over in the hope that the audience would not notice or care.
    Well I did notice and I won't do Lucas job for him.

    As Martoto77, noted, how could the Jedi ever have been able to keep order and deal with armed threats if they have nothing but lightsabers?
    We know that other armies exist, and we know that battles have been fought in the past.
    So either the Jedi should have some military hardware of their own or the republic has such forces and they have aided the Jedi when the need arise.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  23. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    The jedi are not going to war with the TF , they have no mandate for that , hence they send 2 jedi as protection for Padme .
    The jedi don't know that Padme is planning to go to battle with the TF when they send QGJ to go with her .
     
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The ARE sending two Jedi that will FIGHT the TF forces.
    The Jedi KNOW that the TF will try to capture Padme, to make her sign this treaty.
    Or they will simply kill her.
    The Jedi are there to PROTECT her, that means they will try to prevent the TF from doing that.
    And this will mean a fight.

    The Jedi have no mandate to send two Jedi to protect Padme either, or to go to Naboo.
    But here the lack of such apparently does not matter.

    So the Jedi ARE taking sides, they support Padme against the TF.
    That is crystal clear.

    What did the Jedi think that Padme would do once on Naboo?
    If not fight, what then?
    Surrender?
    If they think that, why send two Jedi to with her, they would just get captured along with Padme.
    And the TF have already tried to murder two Jedi so it is very likely that they will simply kill the Jedi with her.
    And even if that does not happen, the Jedi are also there to find out about Maul. Kind of hard to do that if they are prisoners.

    Sorry, the Jedi would know, unless they are morons, that a fight it very likely once they arrive on Naboo, if not before.
    The Jedi are there to protect Padme from the TF forces and find out about Maul. And to look after small boy.
    So can just two Jedi deal with the TF forces, ships and soldiers, and Maul and protect Padme and look after a small boy?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  25. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    protecting her does not mean going to war , QGJ says that explicitly .

    The heads of the JC give direction to QGJ to go with her , they work with the senate , they understand the politics, either they feel this is within their remit or they've already ok'd it with the senate , it's not hard to work out is it . .

    I dunno what you what , it's like unless you have endless scenes showing discussions of rules and plans then you can't manage to follow it . Film narrative just isn't like that .

    .