PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Everyone is fallible. Dooku is fallible, and he'll pay for it in the next movie.

In this case, Dooku sees Jedi compassion as a weakness, and knows to take advantage of it.

 

Right. But it's not Jedi compassion per se. It's ordinary compassion that anyone would have for a helpless comrade, without a lifetime of training. This is the weakness. If Yoda had been able to let go of what he feared to lose then he would have honoured what Anakin and Obi-Wan fought for and stopped Dooku from escaping.

 

It's jedi compassion that dooku was counting on. That's why he did it.

Unless you're trying to argue that Dooku was counting on Yoda doing something un-jedi-like, which is a terrible argument.

 

Compassion isn't something a Jedi should be willing to sacrifice for some perceived greater good. That's Sith teaching, not Jedi teaching.

Yoda acted based on the certainty that two people would die if he did nothing. Anakin wanted to act based simply on a fear that ultimately proved to be unfounded. He cared nothing for the clone trooper who fell out with Padme, only for Padme. His decision-making wasn't rooted in compassion for two people who may have needed help, but in his intense feelings for a woman he was in love with. Those intense feelings amplified his perception of the amount of peril Padme was in and diminished his perception of the importance of his duties as a Jedi.

 

They don't sacrifice compassion. They're duty is to show compassion for the trillions of innocent citizens who will be affected by Dooku's war. Sith teaching is to satisfy their own passions, whether that is compassion for an individual above all others or just for themselves, and obtaining the power to do so.

The Jedi thing to do this is to safeguard peace. To be prepared to let go of all that they fear to lose, to sacrifice comrades placed in peril only to stop you from achieving this, in order to honour what they fight for and achieve this.

Yoga failed to do the Jedi thing.

 

So Yoda in ESB is a Sith?
He tells Luke that he should sacrifice Han and Leia if he honors what they have fought for.
In other words, if Luke goes, he will either be killed, capture or turned. Either will be a major loss for the rebellion and a major win for the empire. Han and Leia would not want that and neither does Yoda and Obi-Wan.
So they tell Luke not to go, as the greater good is served by him staying.
Yoda even admits that Luke could help them if he goes but that he would ruin what they have fought for.
Again, Luke could save them but he would be killed, captured or turned.

So saving Han and Leia at the cost of Luke, that is bad. So he tells Luke to stay and sacrifice them.
So unless Yoda is now a Sith, the Jedi ARE sometimes ok with sacrificing some for the greater good.

[/QUOTE]

Except Anakin reacted much the same way at the start of RotS, when he wanted to go back and help the clones in the other fighters. Obi-Wan had to, again, remind him that they were doing their job so that he and Anakin could do theirs.

So Anakin has a desire to go and help people, even people he is not attached to but he is told not to.

Again, in ESB, Yoda says that Luke should sacrifice Han and Leia, that even if their deaths is 100% certain, Luke should still not go as the cost will be too high.

And again, Obi-Wan talked about how the mission is more important, that they might be able to stop the war if they get Dooku. He did even went so far to say that if Anakin abandons the mission, he would get expelled from the Jedi Order.
So ignoring the mission is a very serious breach of the rules.

Well I think DS is arguing this. That what Yoda did was in every way correct and perfect and all that.
That there was never any notion of doing anything else and the Jedi code would make any Jedi do the exact same thing.

And others argue that for Yoda to focus on Dooku over Anakin and Obi-Wan would make him a sith.

Sorry, Mace is NOT negotiating and he pretty much says "Kills us and get it over with!"
And Dooku says "I am sorry my old friend."
So the situation is very clear, if the fighting starts up again, Mace and all the others will die.
They have no chance to beat the droid army. Mace knows this and he choose death for all of them.

Again showing that Jedi can let people die if the stakes are high enough.

If Mace knew that the clones were on their way or if he wanted to stall or play for time, then he could have said any number of other things.
Like "What will happen to us if we do?" "Can you guarantee our safety?" and so on.
He had the chance to do this but shut the door immediately and said "We will rather die"

Had Obi-Wan been a little smart, he could have kept Dooku talking, feigned an interest and tried to find out as much as he could. But like Mace, he shuts the door to that pretty quickly.
In the film, Anakin and Padme does not get any offer, that was a deleted scene.

Also, neither of them would have no way of knowing how they would be executed or if they could fight.
But it is made clear that they could maybe delay the inevitable but without help, they would die.

I doubt that, they had a mission, stop Dooku and landing would mean a delay. Also, they are still getting shot at and landing would make them an easier target and their ship could get destroyed and the mission fails.
So no, I don't think Yoda would stop. He would tell Anakin to stop worrying and let go and if she dies, he should be happy about it.

As I said before, Yoda knows that Dooku and the seps has built up an army in secret, while they have "negotiated" with the republic. And their plan is to attack the republic. A republic that as far as they know, did not have an army and thus would get beaten quickly.
He also knows that Dooku is involved with the attempted murder of Padme.
So Yoda already knows that Dooku is far from a political idealist and he has no noble goals.

Dooku did not have much in the way of choice, he thought that he could beat Yoda but he realized he was not strong or skilled enough. So escape was his only option so he looked for a distraction.

[/QUOTE]

I imagine that the look would be not unlike his look when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him.
That his evil sith master would be like a sith and be duplicitous, that apparently never occurred to him.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Apologies for the terrible typos earlier. Namely "their" not "They're" and Yoghurt not Yoga.

D'oh!

 

No, Yoghurt's from Spaceballs

 

The schwartz is strong with you.

 

Right. If Dooku ever believed that Yoda would let two Jedi die in order to stop him, he wouldn't have even bothered trying to distract him by dropping a crane on top of them.

Their compassion is for everyone. Including their own members when their lives are threatened.

No, it means that Luke needs to accept that at some point, his friends could very well die. Whether they actually will or not, is not up to him, but up to the will of the Force. His friends might die, they might not die. Nothing is for certain right now and he needs to understand that. Only when there is certainty, should he act and not out of fear. Again, I remind you of Ahsoka, who refused to leave Anakin's side when he was injured because she was afraid to lose him. Aayla had to tell her that their priority was to seek out help for all of them. Ahsoka comes to realize that if she had stayed behind, then there was no way for Aayla to convince Tee Watt Kaa to let his son Wag Koo to go help Anakin, because someone would need to stay behind with Tee Watt Kaa. Just like Anakin has to accept that Padme may or may not die, in order to stop Sidious.

Anakin is an emotional person who is prone to making emotional decisions. Far different from Yoda and Obi-wan, who can make decisions without emotion. Also, Anakin by the time of the Battle of Coruscant has developed attachments to Oddball and the other members of Red Squadron. On Geonosis, he did not have an attachment to anyone other than Padme and Obi-wan.

The mission wasn't ignored because he helps the two Jedi,.nor is it a breach of rules for him to do what he did. Anakin wanting to go back for Padme due to his attachment was grounds for dismissal.

Which he knew would only happen if it wasn't against the rules and that other Jedi have done the same thing, in similar situations.

 

As I stated, Yoda is clearly disgruntled about the whole affair, Dooku escaping, Dooku becoming a Sith, etc. It's a no win scenario, with no right answer. Yoda chose, or was led to save them.

"A dark day, this is!"

No, Dooku asks for a surrender. Mace says "We will not be hostages to be bartered."

| We | will not become hostages |
| to be bartered | <-clause

In relation to Yoda's decision, what benefit would Mace's death have brought to the "mission"? You've said that Mace was willing to sacrifice himself and others in favor of the mission. What mission is that, and how?

All three were sentenced to execution. They knew they were heading out to be executed.

Obi-Wan objected to Anakin's wanting to help Padme because he need Anakin's help to fight him.
"I can't take him alone"
I didn't say Yoda would stop, only that, by Obi-Wan's reasoning, Yoda could stop, if the roles were reversed, as Yoda could take Dooku alone.

The point is, Yoda did exactly was Dooku expected he would do, and used it to his advantage. Why would Dooku try this if it is contrary to Yoda's character?

 

It was more than an objection. He threatened him with expulsion from the Jedi order because he was neglecting his duty by responding to his fear for Padme's life.

This makes it puzzling to me why Obi-Wan later declares it a victory. If they had stopped to help Padme and let Dooku get away then it would have been the same outcome, but with Anakin still having two arms. How can the outcome that Anakin's insubordination would have ensured, and would cause him to be expelled, be considered a victory by the same man that warned Anakin that they must stop Dooku above all else?

Because it's an ordinary human characteristic and Jedi are supposed to be trained and have a duty not to be ordinary. To let go of what they fear to lose and to make sacrifices when doing so honours the greater good that their comrades fight for.

Dooku anticipated that Yoda would fail to practice what he preaches.

 

I agree that Yoda is not happy, that a darkness has now fallen, a darkness he might have prevented.

Your point being?
Dooku asks for a surrender, Mace clearly refuses.
Both in what he says and the tone in which he says it.

What more do you want?
That Mace give Dooku the finger?
That he pulls down his pans and says "Kiss my ***** ***"?

Mace correctly reads what Dooku's offer entails, that they would be taken prisoner and used as hostages and leveraging the republic into agreeing to some of the seps demands.
He realizes this and sees this as worse than they all dying. So he refuses Dooku, knowing what the consequence would be, them all dying.

Not the mission, the greater good.
If they are taken as hostages and the republic makes concessions to get them back and this weakens the republic. Then them being hostages will be bad for the republic. Worse than them being dead.
So Mace makes the choice to sacrifice 20 people because the alternative is worse overall for the republic.
So the greater good is better served with them dead than them as hostages.
At least in Mace's view.

Were they?
Dooku only said to Obi-Wan, "It migth be difficult to secure your release."
No sentence, nothing.

With Anakin and Padme, again deleted scene. In the film they are taken captive and then we see them being taken out into the arena.
Nothing shows that they knew what would happen.

And he also said that if Anakin abandons the mission, he would get expelled for the Jedi order.
So neglecting your duty/mission is apparently very serious.

And Yoda's reasoning in RotS is that the solution to this is to let go of people, accept death as natural and be happy when people die.
So why would he indulge Anakin in this when he wants Anakin to stop being concerned for others?

[/QUOTE]

Because as I said, Dooku had little choice.
He tried to beat him with the Force, that failed.
He tried to beat him with a lightsaber, that failed.
Dooku knows that eventually Yoda will beat him and he will die or be captured.
And he does not want that.
So he needs to escape and to do that he needs to cause a distraction.
So he takes a chance, that Yoda is not that disciplined to let two people he knows die even if that is what a Jedi would ideally do.
Dooku knows Yoda well and maybe he knew that Yoda does not always practice what he preaches.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The idea of Jedi being hostages that can be ransomed at all is problematic to say the least anyway. Considering all the sacrifice that Jedi are expected to make, being an asset to be bartered with by the enemies of the republic for which they stand is totally inconsistent.

The Jedi are not allowed to have attachments that can be exploited by the enemy in this way. That policy is entirely redundant if a captured Jedi can be so exploited.

 

Obi-wan considers it a victory because they forced the Separatist Council to leave Geonosis and had taken over the Droid Foundries. They also had inflicted damage on several ships and destroyed some of the Droid Army that was constructed on Geonosis. That's why despite Dooku's escape, he still considered it a victory. Yoda, on the other hand, knew that despite their success, the war was now on and had to remind him that now was not the time for congratulations.

Except Yoda didn't do it out of fear. He did it out of compassion and duty, something Dooku was aware that the Jedi had done. The sacrifices aren't about letting people die, but about accepting that death comes to everyone and to let go of your fears about death.

I don't think Dooku was serious when he asked for their surrender. He's still buying time for Yoda to show up with the Clone Army, since that will start the war in earnest. But the attachment policy is less about putting people in danger, and more about what lengths a Jedi will go towards protecting those loved ones. Anakin shows us what happens when an attachment is formed to one single person and the damage it can cause.

 

Like I said, this is a terrible argument. Dooku expected Yoda to act a certain way, and Yoda did. If you want to say that Dooku expected Yoda to do something un-jedi like, then doing un Jedi like things is characteristic of Yoda, and there is no problem here, and this entire argument about Yoda's actions can be dropped.

Well, let's investigate...
-They're chained to pillars to be eaten by terrible monsters in an arena.
-The screenplay calls it an execution
-The novelization calls it that as well
-The scene is called "Execution Arena"
Yeah, I'd say it's an execution.

Oops, I forgot one. The movie calls it an execution.

Let's talk about this advice from Yoda in episode 3. It seems this is what is being used to prop up a rigid "prime directive" of the Jedi, and create a retroactive inconsistency of his decision in episode 2.

Why do you suppose the reason Yoda saved Anakin and Obi-Wan was due to an attachment, and fearing losing them?

And is this advice he gives Anakin coming from the same Yoda? The Yoda in episode 2 knew not war, but peace. The Yoda in episode 2 was vulnerable, and his senses diminished, because for the first time, his sense of the force was clouded. He was in a sense, partially blind. He knew that nothing was what it seemed, and the situation was unravelling and beyond his control.

The Yoda in episode 3 is in a very different place. He's known war, and not peace. He's seen multitudes of his Jedi be killed, as well as millions of clones, and possibly billions of others. He's knows many more will die; and the worst is yet to come, and the dark side has ascended. The war has changed everyone.

 

They're a valuable asset to the Republic. This is just a silly criticism in a whole thread devoted mostly to silly criticisms.

 

Capturing the Separatist council or blockading them on Geonosis would have been victory. The Separatists waged war quite handsomely without the droid foundries. The Jedi were quite adamant that Dooku must be captured as a priority.

No he just anticipates that when push comes to shove, Yoda will be unable to live up to the ideals that he and the Jedi order preach.

It's uncharacteristic of most people to do what's expected of a Jedi Knight. That's why they train. If they fail to do so it's not because of them being out of character. It's because their true character, in spite of their training, has been revealed.


Compassion and fear are linked. Compassion means handling the misfortune and suffering of others as if it were happening to you. Transfer of self preservation. Which means it is a response to fear for one's well being. Fear is the emotion that prompts and prioritises these actions.

 

As I have said several times now, didn't you read it?
Dooku has few if any options.
He tried to use the Force and his lightsaber but both failed.
So he knows that Yoda will eventually beat him and he needs to create a distraction to get away.

So putting others in danger, in the hope that Yoda will not be as cold and determined to ignore two of his friends dying.
That is probably the best Dooku could do in this circumstance.
Better than yelling "Hey look, there is Elvis!"
Or go "Hey your fly is undone." or "Hey your shoelaces are untied."

This would actually be relevant if I had even once questioned that they were in arena to be executed.
But I haven't, again try to read what I write.
I question what you said here;

To which I said;

The film does NOT show any sentencing, there was a scene with Padme and Dooku but that is a deleted scene, so not IN the film.
Obi-Wan is never shown to be told that he will be executed.
So my argument is that these three are NOT told ahead of time that they would be executed or how that would take place.

Anakin and Padme probably guess that something bad will happen while they are waiting to be brought into the arena.
And once in the arena, yes they can see what will happen.

Except that in TPM, Yoda and the other in the JC exhibit much the same idea.
Anakin misses his mother and fears to loose her, very normal and natural given his situation.
And esp since she is a slave on a world run by gangsters.
But not to the Jedi, those feeling are bad enough that they refuse to train Anakin.

They do eventually relent and allow him to be trained but do they do anything about his mother?
No! Anakin is expected to let of his attachments and his emotions about his mother. Not one word about trying to help the situation by freeing her.

And people have argued that the Jedi must not help people here and there, save a few on this world, save some more in some other place.
Because that would be unfair, if the Jedi save these five over here and not those ten over there, that is unfair to those ten and it would be more fair for the Jedi to save no one.
I have lost count how many times people argue that the Jedi have the mindset, "If you can't help everyone, you should help no one."

I don't agree but this is what people say the PT Jedi are supposed to be like.
That they would never ignore orders just to save a few lives, that they always look at the bigger picture, the greater good. That they are trained to not react like regular people.
A regular person might choose to save five friends and let let ten strangers die. A Jedi must never do this.

He saved them because there is a quite natural reaction to try and help people, esp if it is people that you know and care about.
The Jedi are trained to ignore this reaction.
That is also why they are not allowed any contact with their parents, siblings or extended family.
And why they must not have families of their own.
To suppress those kinds of feelings and reactions, because a Jedi has a higher calling.

Yoda was just not strong enough to ignore this impulse.

[/QUOTE]

But take Obi-Wan in AotC, he knows that Anakin missed his mother and he knows that he has been having bad dreams about her. To the point where he has trouble sleeping.
Does he suggest to do something, to see if Shmi is ok?
Nope, just "Dreams pass in time."
So do nothing, just wait until the problem goes away.

And later, when Obi-Wan finds out Anakin is on Tatooine, he is both surprised and wonders why he is there.
Really Obi-Wan? You can not see why your student, that has spent ten years missing and worrying about his mother and on top of that, is having nightmares about her, that he would go to her?

So Yoda, who has lived very long with this no attachment rule, would he be fine with Anakin leaving to go and help Padme?
I doubt it.
Also, between TPM and AotC, Anakin must have asked if they could do something about his mother or if he could go see her.
And he was almost certainly told, NO!
So the Jedi order frown on their students running off to save people they care a lot about.
Ideally, they should not have any such people, they should not put anyone over anyone else.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I'm not sure I fully agree with your outline of Jedi philosophy, or your conclusion regarding Yoda's motivation for the Geonosis trip.

The Jedi creed is essentially high-level Buddhist enlightened stuff - the idea is that you're so compassionate that you have equal compassion for all living things, and accept that all things will pass, including the lives of your friends and family. So they're not so much suppressing something, as expanding their ability to interpret things that happen in the universe - to the extent that one thing is no longer more important than another thing simply because it relates to the personal ego.

As regards Yoda's decision to go to Geonosis - he takes an entire army, a decision which seems unnecessary if his primary goal is to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan simply because they're his pals. A small strike team could accomplish this. I think his aims are broader, more political and are essentially two-pronged:

1. Anakin and Padme are important regardless of whether he personally cares about them or not. One is the 'Chosen One', the other is a Senator whose murder might set off a political powder keg. In the event of course, the powder keg goes up, but only because that is Sidious and Dooku's plan all along. Yoda doesn't need his feelings to be involved to make the decision to rescue them.

2. Given the reports sent back to the Jedi Council by Obi-Wan, Yoda knows both that something is very wrong on Geonosis, and that there is an unsolved mystery around Sifo-Dyas's clones. His power to escry the future through the force diminished by his inability to penetrate the falling veil of the dark side, he decides to bring the entire matter to a head immediately. He takes the Clones to Geonosis to confront whatever awaits them there - his idea presumably is that by bringing the two mysteries together, some light will be shed on the situation. In the event, the Jedi simply fall further into Sidious's diabolical trap.

 

I guess people can, if they want, volunteer and impose their own ideal behaviours for the Jedi.

But what they say they do in the movies is what we must measure them against.

And leaving Dooku to escape (after the galaxy imapacting necessity for Dooku NOT to escape has been firmly stated) because he has been distracted by some danger posed to Obi Wan and Anakin is more in common with the kind of conduct that the Jedi's stated ideals proscribe.

Yoda later says, while training Luke, that he will only find whatever he takes with him into the cave, when the dark side clouds their vision of what could await him there.

When Yoda's vision is similarly clouded regarding the developments on Genosis, either that was a new lesson learned by Yoda there, or it was a lesson he knew but ignored when taking an army with him to investigate what's going on .

 

About Yoda and Geonosis.

He had no idea that Padme and Anakin were there when he picked up the clone army and went to Geonosis. They were on Tatooine and Mace had ordered them to stay put.
So that was not a factor.

The Jedi know that Dooku and the seps are preparing for war so they go, both to prevent the TF taking possession of the big droid army that has been built on Geonosis and also to deal wit Dooku.
Mace says this and Yoda repeats this later as does Obi-Wan.
Dooku is a priority target and if they get him, they might be able to stop this war before it starts.

So given this, it is head-scratching that Yoda a) does not take the chance to shoot at Dooku when he arrives in the arena. And b) that he does not bring any help when he goes to confront Dooku and stop him from escaping.

Mace made the choice to let both Padme and Anakin die in the arena rather than surrendering and let them be used as hostages.
So he evidently does not place some sort of higher value on them.

As for what Sidous and Dooku planned with Padme.
The most sensible explanation to me is that they wanted Padme dead as Nute had put that as a condition of him siding with Dooku.
Plus she was an obstacle to the army-bill that Palpatine wanted to pass.
So with her dead they kill two birds with one stone.
Nute is happy, the army bill passes and now their plans can move along.

I know people argue that their plan was for the assassinations attempts to fail, that Obi-Wan would be led to Kamino and then to Geonosis and that essentially everything that happened in the film was what they had planned to happen. So they are omniscient and has predicted every last event before it happened.

As for the Jedi and compassion.
If they truly were capable of caring equally about everyone then they would not need all these rules and bans about attachments and all that.
Instead they suggest to me that the Jedi are not capable of doing this and so try to limit their exposure to those kinds of feelings.
If a Jedi would be able to do this, then he or she could have a family and know their parents/siblings and it would not be a problem as they won't put them above anyone else.

Also, if the Jedi care about everyone equally, then if the choice is between saving two lives or two million lives, the Jedi would always go with saving two million.
Dooku escaping would led to the war spreading and many would die so sacrificing just two people to prevent that would be a no-brainer to a Jedi.
And this is made explicit in the RotS novelization, which has been quoted here before.
The Jedi would without hesitation let another Jedi die if they thought that it would end the war.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

There were other droid foundries besides the one on Geonosis. That's why the war was able to keep going for as long as it did. And yes, capturing Dooku was a priority. But in Obi-wan's view, he saw it as a good thing despite that. This was to highlight Jedi arrogance.

Their true character is compassion for all living beings. That includes doing what is expected of all Jedi, which is to save lives.

A Jedi who has compassion for a Sith and a non corrupt senator, will feel no different towards both individuals. It is absolute compassion as described in Hinduism. As to acting compassionately, that is true, but that doesn't mean that they act based on fear for others as if they were afraid for themselves. They act based on the feeling of empathy more than anything.

Because A) neither Jedi had thought there was anything serious to the dreams and B) Obi-wan believed that Anakin had better sense than to just up and leave without consulting him.

Depends on the circumstances. If Anakin came to him and said that I see an assassination attempt, like Ahsoka had, then Yoda would work with him to figure it out. But if it was abandoning his duty on a flimsy bit of information, then no.

Except that Shmi was the one who reminded him of his earlier dream that he would come back someday and free her as a Jedi. Hence, he probably didn't ask to go see her during that ten year period. He had no reason to think she was in trouble, especially when the dreams start and he later changes the subject, which if he was really concerned, he wouldn't have done so.

Yoda admitted that the Jedi Order did act out of fear when it came to going to Genosis. Fear that their powers were diminishing and that they couldn't stop the Sith this time.

Yes, which is why the Sith waited a thousand years. They created a plan so elaborate that they could factor in nearly everything that could go wrong. That doesn't mean that there weren't miscalculations such as Maul's apparent demise, the emergence of the Chosen One, the true purpose of the Clone Army almost being discovered, the death of Jango Fett, the birth of the Skywalker twins and the survival of two Jedi Masters who would be chosen to train the Chosen One's offspring. But they had sussed out enough to get the job done.

Except if everyone is equal, then saving two Jedi in danger is as equal as saving two million lives.

And as I pointed out, Spider-Man would try to save Mary Jane (his attachment) along with the passengers of the cable car (non attachment) because both are equal in his eyes. Just as it was for Yoda. And as TCW pointed out, Yoda was correct both times. First with what he did on Geonosis and again in the Force vision. Both times, Yoda could have stopped the war before it started and then gotten worse. And yet, both times, he was willing to save the individual over the fate of the galaxy. Sidious admits that when Yoda does this in the vision, he failed to break Yoda. He failed to get him to do something that was antithetical to what the Jedi are. And Serenity says that he has passed the tests and will be granted the training that Qui-gon has for him.

Ergo, the novelization is wrong.

If that was true, then there would not be a dark side of the Force. There would be no Sith Lords and Nightsisters and Nightbrothers running around. The Jedi need that kind of training in order to survive and endure. They need to not be attached. We've seen what happens with attachment.

 

Meaning that calling it a victory was daft. The Republic are in the act of setting off to fight these other armies that Obi-wan was already aware of when he declares this victory.

Yes it does. That's precisely why humans are capable of compassion in the first place. Empathy is the ability to imagine other people's misfortune as if it affected oneself.

 

If we subscribe to that theory, then no battle that has ever been won in the history of war, can be considered a victory until one side has been completely vanquished. The Battle of Gettysburg, the Battle of Midway and the Battle of Saratoga were all declared victories, even though the wars were not over. Hell, we cannot call the Battle of Yavin 4 or the Battle of Endor, a victory either.

No, it doesn't. The Jedi train themselves to let go of their fears. Up until the Clone Wars, the Jedi's acts of compassion weren't based on fear for others, but on the simple fact of doing the right thing.