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Discussion Plot Holes In The ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by zackm, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    You're using semantics to deflect. The FO is nothing more than an imperial remnant. So what if i call them the imperials or the FO. They're using the same ships, same command structure and same technology. Hyperspace tracking was an imperial project that the "FO" is now using. Anyways, your explanations as to why the bad guys didn't use the tools at their disposal continue to be thin. I'm moving on.
     
    BLemelisk likes this.
  2. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    It is basic siege warfare.

    Win by starvation.

    In this case, fuel starvation.
     
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  3. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    This is about as succinct and clear an interpretation as available. Everyone, go with this one.
     
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  4. ForcePushUp

    ForcePushUp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Lets see....

    Rey's third lesson from Luke.

    This was a complaint my sister brought up. She never got the third lesson from Luke, which got me thinking that there are several different ways to look at it.

    1) The third lesson is a hanging story thread that will come up in IX when Force Ghost Luke passes on one more piece of knowledge to Rey.

    2) As Yoda pointed out, "Failure is a great teacher" and Luke's failure in dealing with Ben Solo was the third lesson and Rey learning that Luke isn't perfect was important for her to learn. People make mistakes, even our mentors, and its up to us to learn from the mistakes of the past.

    3) It was meant as a mirror to the Empire Strikes Back where Rey left before she was fully equipped with the knowledge the master intended to pass on.

    4) It was a mistake on the film makers part and they forgot to cover it up in editing or something, lol.
     
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  5. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    I mean, it's what the film tells you. Like, the motivations for doing it are clear on screen. If you disagree with the characters' choices for doing it, fine, no one's asking you to agree with them. But the reasons for doing so are actually discussed on screen.

    Do I think it was dumb for the FO not to send a hundred TIEs and other fighters at the Raddus to blow it out of the sky if it was possible to do so? Yeah, probably. I don't think characters being dumb and overconfident (especially if arrogance is completely within character) constitutes a plot hole though.

    @ForcePushUp
    I love this interpretation.

    And expanding upon it I think Rey learns her own lesson in failure when she fails to turn Ben. She needed that Lesson. Ben doesn't deserve her help if he is going to continue to be selfish and destructive. She let's him know this at the end of the film.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  6. ForcePushUp

    ForcePushUp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2016
    I'm fine with the First Order not sending their TIES to just blow up all the ships.

    Why waste resources such as fuel and whatever fighters you lose in the effort when you can just let the Rebels basically take themselves out.

    And didn't they explain in the film that the ships were just far enough out to where the big cruisers couldn't cover the small fighters, putting them at greater risk anyway?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  7. Nadroj ilain

    Nadroj ilain Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    So what was the plan....let them run out of fuel and then.....just follow them as they still hurtle through space at the same rate of speed?? was the plan to just follow them for eternity until they died of starvation?

    Either way TIES would have to be used to shoot down the ship.
     
  8. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    The rear shields of the Raddus would be down once the fuel ran out. That's the whole reason why FO destroyers couldn't shoot it down in the first place.

    That was the plan. Keep it at a close enough distance to be in range of the destroyers, wait for the fuel to run out and the shields to go down, obliterate the Raddus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  9. Nadroj ilain

    Nadroj ilain Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    So...GFFA is less technically advanced than us??? Because our space ships electronic systems arent dependent on fuel....heck even the 1967 coupe i have outback runs electrical systems without fuel...
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  10. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes I thought that was their plan also. Would have preferred Admiral Ackbar to have done the Hyperspeed move.

    I think the FO plan was indeed, wait until they run out of fuel and blast them into oblivion. But then it did seem like all their power seemed pointless if they couldn't destroy the Raddus. Numbers meant nothing?
     
  11. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    I don't know, man. I'm really not interested in trying to understand space-fantasy technology in a fictional galaxy. That's what was presented to us in the movie and it seems to be consistent with canon.

    Yeah, I think that's what's being debated here. Some seem to think it's a plot hole that they didn't send X-number of TIE's to go destroy the Raddus at the risk of a ton of them being taken out in the process. I just saw it as Hux and the FO being arrogant (with the bonus of not having to destroy any of their resources.)
     
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  12. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes I mean in theory they pulled back because they couldn't cover right?

    Although yes I guess they could have dispatched TIES. I guess their arrogance blinded them.

    Standard villain stupidity instead of just getting on with it
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  13. BLemelisk

    BLemelisk Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    You could possibly argue that after looking at what happened to the Imperial Fleet at Endor, they decided to hold fighters back until the capital ship engagement?

    It's been shown in canon the First Order religiously studies the battles fought by the Empire, to the point of having them sewn into all their uniform cuff titles.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  14. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Correct.

    I'm curious to see what the novel says regarding it. I'm not too far into it yet.
     
  15. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    And the same goes for literally every battle or conflict that we see the bad guys engaged in across all 9 movies and 2 TV series.
     
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  16. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    How does it generate electricity?
     
  17. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    TPM- to be fair, was blind luck the shield failed and the control ship destroyed
    AOTC - in this case Jedi complacency allowing Dooku to escape. As for CIS, the Jedi were about to be killed in the arena - very effective
    ROTS - Palpatine pretty much checkmated the Jedi. Well Anakin betrayed Windu. Only point was Grievous stopping Obi Wan being obliterated.

    ANH - Tarkin's arrogance and stupidity. A commander has to request Lord Vader's intervention. Would have worked if not for Han's return.
    ESB - Empire effective in routing Rebels at Hoth. The scum flees, beaten. The heroes survive only because Vader permits it to draw Luke to him. R2 saves the day because he's awesome!
    ROTJ - HERE the Emperor ties the hands of his fleet which should obliterate the Rebels by ordering them not to attack. The fool of an officer on Endor chases into the forest and OPENS the door. Stupid! Otherwise no way the Rebels win.

    TFA - no idea how the Resistance pilots survive. Only thanks to Han and co.
    TLJ - arrogance of FO. Perhaps superior Raddus engines.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  18. Nadroj ilain

    Nadroj ilain Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    a little small thing called a battery???? was that a serious question??
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Batteries qualify as electrical fuel. Do they not?

    I'm sure Holdo could have still had the AC working for a good few more hours if she wanted.
     
  20. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Oh man...this hurts to watch.

    You don't seam to realize that a battery IS fuel.
     
  21. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Yeah, you get it. It's a pattern in Star Wars. There are more examples of course.
    TPM - Why don't the TF bombard the fields where the Gungans are from orbit rather than engage them on the ground? How is it that a single ship slips by their blockade, why didn't they launch fighters against it? How can a fighter simply fly into the interior of their ship? Why is there a single ship at the end? Why is there even an off switch for their droid army? Why aren't Droidekas used everywhere?
    AOTC - The idiocy of Zam Wessel, first with her worms then her shooting a droid over Kenobi? The arrogance and hubris of the Geonosians having an entertainment show rather than just shooting their prisoners? And just staring and looking on as one by one their prisoners survive their execution?
    ROTS - Why does the CIS put Palpatine in a chair rather than hyperspace away from Coruscant immediately? Why does Grevious gloat over the captured Jedi on the bridge of his ship? Why isn't that forcefield thing that stops Jedi used everywhere?
     
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  22. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    The novel says that the TIEs are vulnerable without the support of the Destroyers (once the Resistance ships are out of the Destroyers' range) and while they could hurl wave after wave of TIEs at the Resistance, they have no need to because the Resistance are running out of fuel, can't jump to lightspeed and have no help incoming.

    The order to wait it out actually comes from Snoke in the novel, not Hux (Hux tells Kylo that it's Snoke's command when Kylo doesn't want to pull back). Kylo's TIE sortie takes place when the Destroyers are still in range of the Resistance and are able to provide cover. Leia realises this and orders the Resistance to get out of range so the TIEs will have to drop back - which is exactly what happens.

    Hux only calls Kylo back once the Resistance pull clear and the Destroyers can no longer provide support. And that's also when the TIEs start getting picked off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  23. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Ah. This is what I've been waiting for. That's interesting - and just speaks, again, to First Order arrogance. Arrogance is what kills Snoke in the end, after all.

    Seems like a lot of people don't remember this line in the movie. It's actually another strange favorite moments of the movie for me because of the cut to Ackbar where he immediately says "WE HAVE TO WHAT?" Makes me crack up. I don't know why. Reminds me of "WHAT IS SHE PROPOSING?" in Rogue One.
     
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  24. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    Haha! Yes, both lines always make me laugh for their obviousness.
     
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  25. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Both of those lines are brilliant. The "What is she proposing?" bloke may as well have been caught checking Instagram while the briefing was being presented and Ackbar's delivery is just amazingly timed.
     
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