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Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SW Saga Fan, Oct 28, 2015.

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  1. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 22, 2003
    I don't buy that , SW isn't James Bond where it's the same character each time , the way it was built means you've got all these worlds and decades passing , it's set up so the author can do as much as his imagination can create , they've inherited this amazing sandbox they could've done all sorts of things . Did TFA really need to copy all the ship designs ? more imperials , another sand planet etc. ? I think they consciously chose to copy all that stuff so that the audience would feel familiar with it , and of course it saves on doing the work to come up with something new .

    well he's got a shrine to the bloke in his room ! But yeah , I don't deny he's got some differences too , he seems to be playing it backwards : we're seeing him struggle in his first story like Vader struggled in his last , he reveals his face now rather than at the end etc.

  2. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Dec 7, 2014
    Kylo is as powerful as Darth Vader. Vader and Kylo both wiped out their respective Jedi orders, and command a part of the Empire. The only difference is that Kylo for some reason feels inferior, despite being just as good.
  3. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Oct 16, 2015
    Well sure, there may be some similarities between PT's Anakin and Kylo Ren in the same way that some of the PT characters were similar to the OT ones; and that's okay because it's sort of like poetry, you know, each stanza sort of rhymes with the last one. But my objection is to the claim that TFA is a carbon copy of ANH, which I really don't see it as that. And while there are some PT Anakin similarities, one key difference is that Anakin/Vader never actively sought to reject the pull of the light side, whereas Kylo does. To me, that difference is big enough to really distinguish the two characters.
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Apr 13, 2011
    Interesting. To me Anakin's fall is kind of inverse to Kylo's struggle. Anakin is fighting the dark in ROTS, much like Kylo is fighting the light in TFA.

    Anakin apologises to Obi-Wan after missing the briefing because he was speaking to Yoda about his premonition of Padme's death - "I have no excuse."

    Later, he follows his outburst in response to Mace's rejection of Anakin's Mastership with "Forgive me Master".

    Quite ironic that Kylo will say "forgive me" when speaking to Vader's helmet when he is ashamed of the pull to the light.
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    That's assuming he is telling the truth. It is very possible he got an ass chewing by Disney and was threatened with a lawsuit, if he didn't play ball and speak nicely about the film.

    I think they didn't want Luke to look like Obi-wan, to be in seclusion and to have his students dead because he couldn't prevent someone from falling to the dark side and doesn't even bother to keep trying to save him. And a recent spy report, though not 100% verified, seems to lean even closer in the direction that Luke hasn't learned a thing.
    L110, Ezon Pin and ezekiel22x like this.
  6. trikadekaphile

    trikadekaphile Jedi Knight star 2

    May 6, 2015
    They regressed everybody, actually. Leia becomes obsessed with politics again and is estranged from her husband (when she was so in love with Han in ROTJ that she left her duties with the Rebellion to rescue him from Jabba), and obviously never underwent Jedi training. Han is a smuggler again, because that's "cool" and they perceive audiences found him boring after he fell in love with Leia and became committed to the Rebellion.

    Luke suffered the most of all. He's not as he was in ANH. He's regressed even further, actually. In ANH he was impetuous and apt to get panicky, but one thing he was not was a coward who cut and runs. In TFA he's gone off to sulk in exile, because they needed an Obi Wan equivalent character to make the process of cloning ANH complete, and they already had Rey as the Luke-equivalent character, except, of course, she's female -- such gutsiness to have a strong, scrappy woman as the main character, as the media rapturously claimed, neglecting to mention that strong, scrappy female protagonists are commonplace in genre movies/TV/books these days, and they certainly never pointed out that that's largely due to Lucas's invention of Leia back in 1977 -- and she's "much cooler than Luke ever was."
    The_Phantom_Calamari likes this.
  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    There's some significant variation in the response & success across the 7 movies.
    Best to assume people are telling the truth unless there's evidence to the contrary. I leave conspiracy theory guesswork to others.
    The PT commits the storytelling sin of introducing mysteries & not resolving them. Anakin's virgin birth & Sifo-Dyas to name just two. That's terrible writing. You can bet that all of the mysteries introduced in TFA will be addressed in the following movies.
    You're just upset that they closed your cave [face_tee_hee]
    Except that "candy" movies generally don't win a host of awards & get 90%+ ratings from critics & the public.
    Doesn't apply in the case of popular mass entertainment. By their very nature they try to entertain & be enjoyed by as many people as possible. That's why these films, whether released by Lucas or Disney are shown in every cinema in every shopping mall in the world. The volume of people who like them is the appropriate way of measuring their success.
    Nate787 likes this.
  8. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Dec 7, 2014
    Sifo-Dyas was solved within the very film it was raised. He was presumably a cover identity to Dooku, who hired Jango as Tyranus. There, it doesn't really need any more than that.

    Anakin's backstory. Not really a mystery. That's like asking why Luke is force sensitive. Additionally, we are given one possible explanation in the form of Plagueis' experimentation, but Lucas decided to leave it more open-ended, so that he didn't exclude anyone who wanted to disregard Sidious' words as lying, as he's wont to do.

    Just because Episode 8 and 9 will reveal these facts doesn't make TFA any better. If Snoke is revealed as Rey's mother or something, it still won't make TFA suddenly have hints to this revelation.
  9. Mr. Forest

    Mr. Forest Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 1, 2012
    The mysteries of Anakin's birth (I wouldn't call this one a mystery) and Sifo-Dyas are explained in the movies they're introduced in, with the former being further expanded upon in a later movie. Even the Sifo-Dyas mystery is expanded upon in TCW to give closure to the Jedi, although the audience is already given all the information needed revolving around it for it's importance to the story in AOTC.

    As for the mysteries in TFA? I suspect to either get disappointing revolutions or just nothing at all, just as all of Abrams' works in the past. Sometimes it took so long for anything to come of the mysteries that I ended up not caring about them at all, such as in Lost. And boy did I hear how that show ended on such a bad note. I guess it wasn't such a bad idea when I stopped watching the show midway through season two.
    L110, Ezon Pin and Alexrd like this.
  10. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Long, long post here.

    But what the hell...

    What's with all these lame personal attacks?

    Hidden behind humour or not, they're still ad hominem.

    And three times's a pattern.

    * * *

    I think I see what's going on. Time for some reverse-ad-hominem. But I'll at least do you the courtesy of leaving out the smug invective:

    You're trying, and not for the first time, to pass yourself off as more objective than those thin-skinned, delusional "Lucas" fans, while arrogating the label for yourself. Which is certainly... interesting.

    Are you even a George Lucas fan, DD? You seem to spend half your time reducing the man to a P.T. Barnum figure (apt initials -- I'm sure you'll agree).

    As if prequel fans completely deny the commercial dimensions of Star Wars! The point is, in our eyes, Lucas exquisitely balanced art and commerce, by making things he hoped other people would enjoy or find some value in.

    That is not the same as him throwing in a litany of sops to fans. Lucas was merely indulging himself and hoping others wanted to come along for the ride. Of course, that's no "mere" thing, as it turns out -- which is what makes Lucas (and Spielberg) so extraordinary. It's really, really hard to achieve this, but Lucas (and Spielberg) did. They are the uber-minds of the blockbuster age.

    I don't think you understand what an achievement the movies actually are -- as much in spite of fans as because of them. And, frankly, if Lucas wanted to give fans exactly what he thought they wanted to see, he'd have taken a lazier course, rather than write, produce, and direct all three prequel movies himself, and putting the future of his company (Lucasfilm) on the line with the profoundly non-commercial choice of starting Vader off as a little kid (thereby threatening to capsize the whole prequel endeavour from the start). Other people were urging him to tread a different path, but, y'see, George Lucas is the not the Walt Disney Company -- he pursued a personal vision and actually took risks.

    Of course, there are baits and lures in the prequels -- but so what? Boba Fett, for instance, is as much a mirroring device for Anakin as anything else. And Lucas said way back during the days of TESB that he felt Boba and the stormtroopers were linked; he just hadn't yet committed himself to working out the details. We could examine each of your examples in turn and come out with complementary explanations. The spectral menace of fans is surplus to requirements. Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là.

    Also, on a fan site, of all things, I think it's far better to put Lucas on a pedestal than constantly kick him to the ground. I mean, the latter's a little perverse, wouldn't you say? If there's one place on Earth Lucas deserves at least some respect, above and beyond anything he's shown on the rest of the cyber-sphere, it is surely here. The commercial aspects of Star Wars have been focused on at considerable length. And Lucas is an artist -- which makes for a better focus, in my opinion, than obsessively dwelling on dollar signs and ticket numbers in every other post.

    Say, what?

    All of Lucas' films are "for himself" -- your distinction lacks merit. Every film he has ever made he has made, first and foremost, with the intention of pleasing himself, with the profound self-confidence that what pleases him pleases, or might please, others.

    Audiences are important, but still a secondary concern. In fact, it can actually be put in a more recursive way: Imagining how an audience sees things feeds into Lucas' design choices, as if Lucas and the audience were a single mind, a self-enclosed, self-maintaining mobius strip.

    The audience, from this point of view, is not a concrete thing, but an internally-projected set of standards, or expectations, that Lucas is creatively using like a "head voice": a bicameral flux which functions like a psionic Procrustes, chiselling the films to meet an external set of demands that focus the artist's proclivities, much like a playwright or theatre director must consider the limitations of a stage and auditorium and the biological realities and psychological vagaries of a crowd of attending people. Unless, of course, we are to stop studying and re-enacting Elizabethan stage plays like they are anything special, because none of those guys especially wanted to get on the wrong side of an audience, let alone a reigning monarch with the power to torture and execute impudent subjects.

    And by audience, I definitely mean audience -- not fans. Which, curiously, you also seem to mean. "Fans vs audience is a pointless debate"?; "He literally said he makes those movies for the audience"? Well, then! What are we arguing about? Oh, yes: the way you earlier conflated "fans" with the broader construct "audience". Is this a bait-and-switch move on your part? Let's see what the next part of your answer is...

    Straight back to the appealing-to-fans fallacy.

    Lucas simply didn't do this in the manner you say he did. And where is this "tonne of good evidence"? It's all conjecture/projection.

    The fact is, people like you are unable to really see Lucas as an especially serious artist, however much you bleat to the contrary when you find it expedient to distance yourself from the charge of bashing/trolling.

    And so a circular, self-fulfilling prophecy arises: You dislike the PT, and because you dislike the PT, there must be a tonne of patch-ups and compromises in there, and the proof of there being a tonne of patch-ups and compromises is you disliking the PT, which itself is the de facto proof Lucas obviously threw a tonne of patch-ups and compromises in there. Brilliant!

    If I'm guzzling Kool-Aid, you guys are simply chasing your own tail.

    A "Smeagol/Gollum" exchange? And you're, you say, a fan of this man?

    Of course, that apology remains at odds with Lucas' extensive statements in the Charlie Rose interview. As darth-sinister said, he probably had a bunch of Disney lawyers come down on him hard (or the threat of), forcing him to say sorry and play nice. Another clue is in the Rose interview itself: When Lucas says "white slavers", he immediately chuckles -- as if he knew he'd just gone and landed himself in hot water. It could, therefore, be a personally-motivated retraction, or a mixture of personal and legal. Lucas, after all, is aware of the racial fault lines in the United States, and got clobbered for racial stereotyping in TPM (falsely, in my view, but there it is). It's entirely plausible, then, that he had a strong desire of his own to take the sting out of that remark and run damage control (let's not forget, the man also has $2.02 billion in shares in Disney -- which have since risen to closer on $3 billion). Either way, the apology comes after the fact, and isn't a full retraction.

    Furthermore, as I've stated, and provided evidence for, several times, now:

    ........Lucas was still running with his "the fans will really love it" assessment/diplomatic dodge of TFA at its European Premiere:

    "Y'know, I think it's a movie that the fans will really love."

    "Uh, I don't know, it's hard to say what fans take away, uh, y'know, from the films, and sometimes they see the films very differently than you do" (simpering smile) "So, it's, uh, y'know, I learned that when I added seven frames to show that Han didn't just shoot somebody in cold blood"

    Incidentally, he didn't appear with Kathleen Kennedy, the film's executive producer and custodian of Lucasfilm, at either the Los Angeles or London/European premieres, even though he did appear with J.J. Abrams and all three attended both premieres. Trouble in paradise. Why would Lucas appear with Abrams, the film's director, and not with Kathleen Kennedy, the film's producer and Lucas' successor -- whom she had previously called in front of video cameras, with Lucas sat next to her, "My Yoda"? At two premieres!!! You can disprove me any time by providing solid photographic evidence. Go right ahead. That apology clearly doesn't tell the full story. It's a tactical gloss.

    Though perhaps, that apology, being what it is, is an excellent litmus test for what sort of fan you are:

    Do you opportunistically swallow a superficially pro-Disney statement from Lucas as soon as one appears?

    Or do you look further and consider the wider spectrum of the man's life and the personal themes he has continually expressed in his art and conduct?

    Ah, yes -- one of your countless edifying pops at the PT.

    You come across like a creationist pretending to adore Charles Darwin.

    Actually, what I said before was very clear -- and you have just made my point for me.

    Obviously, all the live-action Star Wars movies have episode numerals, but they weren't emphasized until the prequels; when the story expanded beyond the confines of a single trilogy. So, Disney's choice to not display the episode numeral anywhere, and even force (The Force Chastens) Vanity Fair to print a retraction, is highly suggestive of a strategy on Disney's part to align TFA with the OT (in an outward, mass-market sense). The "saga" aspect of TFA was downplayed all the way through, from the announcement of the title, to the home video release(s). If you casually glance at the DVD case, for example, and even look hard, you won't find a trace of TFA being the seventh of anything. The cover disregards the other films by not even mentioning TFA being another chapter; part of an ongoing story. This, in fact, is what is written on the back of the UK DVD:

    "Visionary director J.J. Abrams (LOL) brings to life the motion picture event of a generation. As Kylo Ren and the sinister First Order rise from the ashes of the Empire, Luke Skywalker is missing when the galaxy needs him most. It's up to Rey, a desert scavenger, and Finn, a defecting stormtrooper, to join forces with Han Solo and Chewbacca in a desperate search for the one hope of restoring peace to the galaxy."

    There is no episode numeral on the front, back, or on the spine. Nor is there a heading like "The legendary Star Wars saga continues..." All there is -- and this should please you -- is a silly boast in BLOCK CAPITALS: "THE HIGHEST-GROSSING FILM OF ALL TIME IN THE UK AND IRELAND" (wow). Plus five-star ratings arranged in two columns (from left to right): "The Mail on Sunday", "The Telegraph", "The Guardian", "The Times" (how thrilling).

    It's as if Disney has committed a quiet genocide on the other movies, using the memory of the OT merely to parlay TFA to disgruntled fanboys, and the PT to model some of its narrative texture and cinematic hooks from (which it does in a more of a latent way compared to the overt copying-and-pasting from the OT).

    Now, you say, this represents a salient marketing move on Disney's part. Perhaps it does. But it's still a way of Disney, the new copyright owner, throwing the other movies under the bus. I mean, it's darn confusing, actually -- not to have any hint of where TFA fits into the other movies based on the DVD box/cover.

    I'm left with the distinct impression, and I'm not the only one, that TFA is actually something of a reset for the series, and it's the episode number, in TFA's case, that is the red herring: more formality than actuality, an archaic honorific. No? Don't forget, this is meant to be a trilogy of trilogies, when all is said and done. So why is there no hint of TFA's standing in relation to the other six anywhere on the box? It's a smart -- read: crafty -- rebranding that suggests a broader action strategy.

    For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption has been standardized. Take four red capsules. In 10 minutes take two more. Help is on the way.

    Lucas' words and actions point very much in the opposite direction.

    Several people -- myself, mikeximus, and darth-sinister -- have adduced evidence to this end.

    You're also treating fans like a monolithic block. In reality (and I presented this quotation earlier), Lucas identified two types of fans -- over-25s loyal to the originals, under-25s loyal to the prequels -- back in 2005, who he said were equally fervent (look at this thread!), and are diametrically opposed.

    How can such a man, with such an awareness, possibly believe he is catering to fans, if he finds there to be at least two sets of fans: rival clans continually at war with each other? Well, I suppose he could have put in bits 'n' pieces he thought would be alternately pleasing to each set/sect, but I don't think that's how he operates.

    He gave the story he wanted to tell maximum priority. But if he was telling a story with so many appealing elements in the OT, isn't it childish, even naive, to assume the PT wouldn't have appealing elements of its own? And isn't it, therefore, silly to pretend that all or some of those elements are there to placate fans, when they could be there, y'know, simply because it's Star Wars, and Star Wars has appealing elements?

    Some people might be getting the cart and the horse mixed up here; secondary to wanting to tear Lucas down and render his choices Nothing Special; itself secondary to wanting to equate Lucas with Disney, or Disney with Lucas, for the purpose of justifying Disney's corporate monkeying. Plus, none of those ugly bashes ever have to be re-examined, do they?

    As a brief footnote, a little bit of info regarding "The People's Choice Awards":'s_Choice_Awards

    For reference, ROTS won two awards ("Favorite Movie Drama" and "Favorite Movie") at the 32nd People's Choice Awards:'s_Choice_Awards

    From the former link:

    The nominees for the 32nd People's Choice Awards were determined by the web research company Knowledge Networks, which took a nationally representative sample of men and women ages 18 to 54, with and without Internet access, to come up with the nominees. After being presented with a list of candidates determined by national ratings averages, box office grosses and album sales, they had the option to write in their favorites. Knowledge Networks recruits its panel by using a RDD phone recruitment method and provides a web TV and Internet access to households without Internet access enabling them to infer back to the entire population.

    "A nationally representative sample of men and women ages 18 to 54" (with and without Internet access), is not........... "fans".

    Obviously, such a sample would invariably include a distribution of fans, but it is obviously broader than that -- and also filters for a lot of the so-called fans that gather on the Internet, given the wide age-range, and the fact that the sample included people without net access (the sampling took place in 2005, after all).

    As the first Wiki link notes, earlier People's Choice Awards (prior to the 31st PCA -- the year before ROTS's double-win) were decided by Gallup polling. It's reasonable to conclude that, had Gallup polling occurred, a similar result would probably have been obtained. For instance, back in 1999, Gallup polling established that the public generally enjoyed TPM, with Qui-Gon rated the most popular character, followed by Anakin and Jar Jar:

    Again, I suspect that this is the sort of audience Lucas had in mind when receiving the People's Choice Award(s) for ROTS. Not whiny fans, not newspaper critics and cultural analysts who charged him of racism and happily recirculated negative fan opinions, not the confederacy of naysayers, complainers, and accusers who have always been there, nipping at his heels (and often profiting from their contrived drubbings).

    If there was an audience Lucas courted or thought the most about, it was the wider public -- not smarmy, sulky subsets. But then, the man has always thought bigger, so this exactly fits the profile. And, obviously, he was right to think bigger, and avoid paying undue homage to people that have never shown much tolerance or gratitude, anyway.
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    But when Lucas has told the truth, he's called a liar. See the double standard. Besides, in Hollywood, all involved have to speak highly of the project even if it is complete dog ****. They can trash the film after it has been out for a while, but not before then and while promoting it. Very few will ever do that as they will face litigation and possible career suicide. While we have nothing firm, it is well within reason to see such a change.

    What was sidelined? Jar Jar was still in AOTC and ROTS. If you will note, the droids were also sidelined a lot in ROTS in order to make much of the film more serious than the earlier films. So it happened with Jar Jar. Midichlorians were in ROTS. What was sidelined? The characters meeting? What's convenient? As to Maul, what does that have to do with fans? Lucas had decided that if there was going to be someone from Maul's species causing problem, why not just have Maul in it?
  12. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Exactly. That's another thing being exploited: the newness of the film. At this stage, it would be silly to expect to see or hear anyone involved trashing it. It doesn't follow that they will necessarily become negative at some future date, of course; but the odds of them doing it right now, for reasons just outlined, are vanishingly small.

    It's a silly claim. You've dealt with those accusations in a robust manner. I'd just like to add that AOTC marks a leap forward in narrative time, which was always planned. And Lucas exploits that for good effect -- for tremendous effect! Palpatine is in power, Anakin has become disenchanted, Qui-Gon is dead, Shmi and Watto (critical elements of Anakin's past) have one scene each; and, crucially, everyone has shifted in their roles and responsibilities as the galaxy buckles and shudders and the Clone Wars wend their way forward. TPM is, quite obviously, an overture. It was even subtitled as such: "The Beginning". But, because Lucas went and did something different, it's looked at askance, and some ugly accusation is found and foisted on the art/artist: in this case, the assumption he sold out. "The nail that stands out is pounded down."

    In mythology, it usually turns out that everyone is related to everyone else, and people cross each other's paths all the time -- reflecting something essential about life itself. Even the whole universe was once contained in a singularity and may have arisen from a quantum vacuum fluctuation.

    And TCW, as I have gathered, is freer to be more outlandish than the films, satirizing this element or that. A special kind of fan service is more appropriate in that show. But, as you imply, Lucas likes to find elegant solutions to things, often condensing multiple ideas into a neat synthesis, or using a sort of artistic/mentalic "Jedi Reflex" to pare away excess and find parsimonious fixes, cutting a problem down in scale from the picture to the pixel ("From Puppets To Pixels" -- pun intended).

    But yeah, apart from that, he obviously thinks about the fans, night and day.
  13. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 26, 2014
    "gezvader28 said:
    I wouldn't say that JJ/Disney were pandering to fans , I think it was more a case of pandering to the general audience and exploiting the media narrative that the prequels were disappointing etc."​

    Fan pandering, general audience pandering, who gives a crap? It´s still pandering.
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    Every commercial movie sequel or adaptation that's ever been made has "pandered" to fans. Whether Lucas or some other filmmaker no one outlays hundreds of millions of dollars without considering what the fans will like & pay to go & see. It's called reality.
    Is that who he was "presumably" was he? The film made that clear to the casual viewer did it? I don't think so. The film introduces the mystery of why Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones, how he did so without the knowledge of the Council, if he didn't then who did, & how he died & was it related to these events. It answered none of them. That's just not done in story-writing. Same deal with Anakin miraculously having no father. If someone took Writing 101 & introduced a mystery in their story & didn't resolve it they'd hear about it loud & clear from their teacher. They'd probably get an F.
    DarthCricketer and KaleeshEyes like this.
  15. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Dec 7, 2014
    If that's the case, then TFA deserves the biggest F of them all. None of the mysteries it raises are resolved within it, even if they have had their resolustions shunted down to Episode 8 or 9. They're still impossible to guess, as there are no clues.

    Sifo-Dyas was never an important character. He's revealed as being fake 2 scenes after he's first mentioned, when Obi-Wan talks to Jango about Tyranus. At the end of the film, Tyranus is revealed to be Dooku, showing that the Sith are behind the clone army, and hinting towards the army's true purpose in ROTS. Sifo-Dyas is just one of Dooku's covers.

    Why is Anakin having no father a mystery? He was conceived by the midichlorians, and this was hinted to have been done by Plagueis. It's no more a mystery than why there's a mystical energy force in the galaxy, or why Gandalf comes back from the dead in The Two Towers. It's not a mystery. No-one was trying to guess who his Father was, because it was explained that he had no Father, and it was either the will of the force, or Plagueis' manipulations.

    Who are Rey's parents? Tell me using only information presented in the film. Who is Snoke? Do the same.

    No Star Wars film has ever had a mystery with no clues be a central plot point.
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  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Aug 5, 2001
    Er no TFA is just the first act in a 3 part story. We'll judge how well the Sequel Trilogy resolves its mysteries when the Sequel Trilogy is complete. Let's hope it does a better job.
    Is he? Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi Master. Yeah we find out that Dooku hired Jango, so he may've been in league with Dyas. But they were both Jedi Masters back then. Was Dyas a willing participant? Was he a key strategist behind the whole plan? Was he Dooku's rival? How did he die? You sure won't find these answers in the movies. I recall being fascinated by these questions after AotC & discussing them here. There were alot of threads on Sifo-Dyas. Many of us were looking fwd to the answers coming in Ep III. We should've known better.
    Was he? Qui-Gonn said that was "possible". I didn't realise the question was resolved. Did I miss it?
    Oh we got a hint! Fantastic. Thanks George, one of the most discussed & intriguing questions to come out of TPM & we get crickets in AotC & then a hint in RotS. Great work.
    & by the way, what a horrendous hint. So are we expected to believe that some Sith Lord essentially raped a random slave woman using micro-cellular organisms? If that's the answer to the question then I'm sorry I asked.
    Hold your horses. There's another 4 hours to go in the ST. Have you noticed I haven't complained about the PT mysteries not being resolved immediately in the first movie or two? Leaving them for later in the trilogy would've been fine. Even preferred. Having some of these questions to ponder for a couple of years is fun. Just as long as they do get resolved.
  17. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 7

    Dec 7, 2014
    The problem of the mysteries in TFA is that there are no hints, nothing to base any theories on. All of the speculation is meaningless. Snoke could be anyone. Rey's parents could be anyone. The point of a mystery, is that there are cracks in the skin, hints to the real answer. We got that with Vader's Father reveal. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Vader's entire goal in ESB is to capture Luke, the reason for which is given by him being his son.
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  18. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 22, 2003
    Dooku was the one who organised the ordering of the clone army by pretending to be Syfo Dyas .

    Anakin is the product of a virgin birth / immaculate conception , basically his parents are Shmi and The Force , and that's a common trope in myths .

    I've got problems with the PT but neither of those ^ elements were an 'unexplained' mystery to me , and they were explained in the movie they were introduced .
  19. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 26, 2014
    Which of course does not apply to the first five sequels to the original SW as they were all independent movies made outside the studio system.
    It is a SEVENTH part in a NINE part story. Huge difference.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Sep 2, 2012
    Mysteries are a part of SW.
    Was the Vader reveal addressed in ESB? Was the other that Yoda referred to addressed in ESB? I don't think so.

    Part 1 of a 3 part story or Part 7 of a 9 part story? What's the difference? TFA isn't the end. E9 is. Why does everything have to wrapped up in the starter of the trilogy?
    What the heck are we going to do in the next two movies then?
    Just because we have no idea how e9 is going to end, doesn't make what we have now, meaningless.
    Darth Downunder and Nate787 like this.
  21. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Jan 29, 2016
    C'mon, who really cares about fan theories and speculation? Fan theories suck. I'm supposed to judge a good mystery on that? Those are judged by how they play out. I don't want hints, I want to be surprised. The goal of the writer is to tell me the story I didn't realize I wanted to hear.

    And Vader's reveal of being Luke's father didn't come out of nowhere? Are you kidding? That was the plot twist that shocked the world! NO ONE saw that coming, especially since it was a retcon - a perfect retcon as well. He was supposed to be the guy that killed Luke's father. Everyone though Vader was after Luke because he was close to Obi-Wan and blew up the Death Star.
  22. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Sep 2, 2012
    Didn't someone notice back in 1977 that Darth Vader in German means father or something? Some news organization or interview with Prowse or something?
    But since the media wasn't as integrated as it is now, that might have flown under the radar.

    I have no problem with not knowing what the heck is going to happen in E8/9 until E9 comes out.
    I want to know what happens but can wait until E9 is out.

    Was the reason why the Yuuzhan Vong weren't sensed in the Force resolved in Vector Prime? Heck no.
    Conquest and Traitor gave us clues to it but it wasn't fully solved until the last book, The Unifying Force.

    If the mysteries of TFA aren't solved by E9 (though will read the tie-in material as well) then I will have a problem with it. Until then, just kicking back and enjoying the ride.
    Nate787 and Darth Downunder like this.
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    It was resolved in AOTC and in ROTS. Obi-wan is told that Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone Army, but Obi-wan has trouble believing that, given that he died before the creation of said army. He asks Yoda and Mace and they confirm that whoever did this, didn't have permission from the Council and they know nothing of it. Jango tells Obi-wan that he was hired by a man named Tyranus and never met anyone named Sifo-Dyas. When Dooku meets with Sidious, he is called Lord Tyranus by Palpatine. Ergo, he was the one who did the ordering. Palpatine later gives the order to terminate all the Jedi. It was all there in the film.

    "The telling of this story of Anakin going into the Jedi Temple and the other Jedi getting killed through the Order 66 of the clones is just done as one of those kind of inevitable pay offs in terms of getting rid of everybody, the Emperor is getting rid of all his enemies, but there’s a certain inevitability of it all and a sadness to it. I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyranus is the one that started the clones, so if your paying attention its very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    As to Anakin's father, Palpatine tells us that Darth Plagueis knew how to manipulate the Midichlorians to create life. The answer is there. It's not his fault that you cannot pay attention.
    Cryogenic, Ezon Pin and mikeximus like this.
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Ultimate Star Wars (p69):

    Manipulated by Count Dooku, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas commissions the Kaminoan cloners to grow an army for the Republic.

    The Databank:


    A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.

    Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know


    Q: Who asks for this huge army to be made?
    A: Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi High Council member who senses a looming galactic war and tasks the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic. When the Sith learn of this, they murder Sifo-Dyas so they can control the clones' creation.


    Dooku completes his fall from the light side when he eliminates his friend, Sifo-Dyas, under orders from Darth Sidious. With Sifo-Dyas gone, the Sith take control of the Jedi's clone army.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Aug 9, 2002
    And all this time I thought Chief Chirpa ordered the clones! On to the next unresolved Star Wars mystery: who was that old guy at the end of TFA?
    Cryogenic and Ezon Pin like this.
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