Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Subtle doesn't even cover it. It was one vague mention by a known manipulator during a conversation designed to manipulate someone. Just going by the movie alone, alot of the audience believe the whole Plagueis story was a lie. Anakin's been having visions of Padme dying & Palpatine just happened to know a guy who could cheat death. All Anakin has to do to learn this trick is to become his evil henchman & start killing Jedi! So during this dubious tale we're expected to rely on his side-comment about creating life??
It's not an answer, it's a cryptic clue. In stories involving mysteries you drop the clues along the way & then provide an answer at the end. Lucas introduced a mystery, gave us nothing for a movie or so & then ended with a clue.

 

Well what would you have wanted?

Lucas gave two suggestions. 1. Anakin's creation is a reaction against the growth of the Sith by the Force, and 2. Plagueis created him.

It's never left as a mystery. No one in the story cares about the answer, and knowing it wouldn't even help them.

Lucas left it ambiguous, because saying anything more would strip it of all it's mythic significance. You might as well ask why Jesus was created.

 

In one paragraph you say it's not a mystery, & you give more than one possibility & you say it's left ambiguous!

I do like your comment I highlighted though. It's exactly why midichlorians were such a bad idea.

 

Why? What do midi-chlorians have to do with mystery and mythicism?

 

It being ambiguous doesn't make it a mystery.

And what would confirmation do? Would it make anyone happy? Or would it just be dry and boring?

Leaving it ambiguous doesn't make it a mystery, it makes it mythic.

 

More information = less mystery. That's a fact. Explaining the cellular biology mechanics of the Force reduces the mysticism of the Force. For alot of viewers if not yourself.

We were just talking about resolving mysteries, but how the Force interacts with the body's cells was never a question raised nor one that anyone wanted an answer to.

 

Why is it assumed that the audience should receive a complete explanation as to how these particular events occurred? The audience sees the film from the perspective of the good guys, and as far as they can tell from the film the good guys never receive a complete explanation either. Whatever the audience sees of the bad guys' perspective is a bonus, not the core of the film.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

It was one vague mention by a known manipulator during a conversation designed to manipulate someone. Just going by the movie alone, alot of the audience believe the whole Plagueis story was a lie.

While you are right that Palpatine was manipulating, and since I believe I do qualify rather as "audience" than "PT fan", it wasn't my impression he was lying.

Ever since ROJ the character had one particular facet, that made him somewhat even more evil, because, IIRC, he was mostly if not constantly telling the truth. I may be mistaken, but how many times in the PT did Papatine actually lie?

 

Ok but Lucas specifically told us as fans that it would be explained in RotS. He thought it was important enough then.
On its own the Sifo-Dyas stuff is not a huge deal. When combined with the other mysteries that weren't clearly resolved it paints a picture of some shoddy writing.

 

What other mysteries!?

Lucas didn't need to explain more about Sifo-Dyas in ROTS, because it was almost entirely dealt with in AOTC. The only thing left hanging was why the Sith would make an army for the Republic, a question answered in ROTS via order 66. That had nothing to do with Dyas.

 

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This is my point, some people think he was telling the truth, some don't. It's completely unresolved.

Palpatine was acting deceptively during the entire trilogy. Do you trust the words of someone who's existence is based on deception? Again, some will, some won't. Hence the Plagueis stuff is dubious (taking the movie on its own). In terms of examples though I'm pretty sure he was lying about his intentions of handing back his emergency powers when TCW had ended. I also doubt that the thought of losing Padme was "unbearable". The guy was full of it.

Dyas supposedly ordered the clones, not the Sith. See, even fans don't know the official story a decade later! That's bcs it wasn't explained.

Other mysteries: who erased the files, Dooku or Sifo-Dyas? Can you say for certain just from the movies?
Was Anakin conceived by the Force of its own will or by Plagueis manipulating the Force?
All you'll have for the above are theories, not answers.

 

Nowhere in AOTC, ROTS or TCW is it implied that Dyas was the one who ordered the clones. Obi-Wan said that he died before that, and Dooku is the one who hired Jango and ordered the clones. Dooku wiped Kamino to cover his tracks, until it was the proper time to reveal the army.

These aren't theories, they're what's clearly implied in the movie. There's nothing left hanging. It was thoroughly explained, and nothing more is needed. TCW didn't add anything we didn't already know from AOTC, that Dyas was killed by Dooku, so that he could pretend to be him as a cover. Everything you need was revealed.

The Anakin question is meant to be ambiguous to stimulate debate. Determining which was correct would please nobody.

 

Then why does Wookiepedia, in its canon section say that Dyas ordered the clones?: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas

And the Official Site: http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas

So, since he ordered the clones, even if his intentions were good he could've erased the Kamino files to allow time for the army to be created for the Republic. Mystery unresolved!

 

The source used is the Clone Wars episode The Lost One, an episode that clearly states that Dooku killed Dyas to impersonate him to order the clones. Wookieepedia is fan-run, and is incorrect in this instance.

Dyas would have no motive to delete the files. He wanted the army yes, but Dooku killed him, took his identity and ordered the clones himself.

Even with all this evidence, you still go on. It's a non-mystery by the end of AOTC. It was resolved 14 years ago.

 

Yes, he has been lying about some things. But IMHO it's the context of the opera scene that matters:

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

Assuming that Plagueis only cared about his apprentice Sidious, it's quite possible Palpatine talks about personal experience.

It further appears that he did use his knowledge to keep Vader alive once he found his dying body on Mustafar (check out frames # 16-19, I'd say you don't touch somebody with that degree of skin injuries unless you really have to): http://starwarsscreencaps.com/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith-2005/82/

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

If this account weren't genuine, it would rob us of the ultimate irony in the Saga, namely that Palpatine never saw it coming that he would also killed by his apprentice, too.

 

I like your theory, but that still doesn't answer whether Anakin was conceived by the Force itself or by Plagueis' manipulations. Even if Palpatine was telling the truth Plagueis may not have been involved with Anakin. It's an unresolved mystery.

Well the movie says that Dyas ordered the clones. The official site (not fan run) says the same thing. Which is it??

 

The movie says that, because the Kaminoans have no knowledge of what Dooku looks like.

 

Pls explain the OS then.

 

I don't think it matters what is canon outside of the films. The films were designed to be able to stand on their own and be open to various interpretations. I have one interpretation of events from watching the films alone and another version influenced by the novel Darth Plagueis, and as far as I'm concerned they both have reasons to be true because they each present a compelling story. IMO whether or not the audience is satisfied with the interpretation of events they have is more important than an official interpretation of events.

 

Why, it's not a part of the film. Why should it matter what someone says outside of the film or shows, when all the evidence points to Dooku being the one who hired the army. The official site is just wrong. It misunderstands the events laid out in TCW for the army's creation.

I'm so tired of arguing how a film resolved it's mystery within it's running time 14 years ago with you. You have almost everything revealed about the plot, beyond some pointless minutia.

What more do you want, a signed confession from Dooku saying "I did it"?

 

Frankly, the OS's explanation makes alot of sense. Dyas ordered the clones with good intentions, the Sith then killed him & corrupted the plan. This makes the Kaminoans appear less gullible bcs they did actually receive an order from Dyas who was a Jedi Council member. This doesn't refute anything in the movies. Dooku took over the planning including hiring Jango. I don't see a problem with the official story. Your story would've been ok too. That's the thing, the movie allows more than one scenario bcs it doesn't make things clear.

 

And that matters somehow?

Why does it need to spelled out?

Also, Silman in TCW clearly states that Dyas was killed so that Dooku could impersonate him. There's no wiggle room there, it happened before the order was placed. Why would the Kamnoans being gullible be a problem. They accepted Obi-Wan clear confusion, and Dooku was acting just as officially as Dyas would have.

 

Midi-chlorians are not the Force. The Force was explained by Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH. Such explanation, using your logic, already removed the mystery from it. Midi-chlorians explain how living beings and the Force are connected, which reinforces the symbiosis theme from the movie, explains Anakin's conception and why he is special even for a potential Jedi.

If it was never a question, then it wasn't a mystery to begin with. What you want and what the movie and the story is and needs are two different concepts. George wasn't bound by what you or anybody wanted.

 

It matters bcs some fans think Dooku ordered the clones & the official story says Dyas did. It also matters bcs it makes Dyas another suspect in erasing the files, to protect his plan of getting an army for the Republic. The fact that there's disagreement & confusion 10 years later underlines my point.