Saga Point of view - George Lucas was right not to listen to the embittered fans

Just like it might be easier to take the prequels at face value instead of spending many hours analyzing them frame by frame like a lot of people do online.

 

Peer pressure has a way of making people believe things without question. ( I.E. Prequel hating)

As Obi-Wan would say, "only a sith deals in absolutes." Why else do the narrow views of the Liberals and Conservatives dominate our sociological norms and dictate an all or nothing view of belief systems?

 

Too hard to determine which opinions have been influenced by peer pressure & which ones haven't. Since it's not confined to the prequels it's really just one of the many factors that form opinions on a variety of things.

Analyzing content is different to telling people why they think a certain way, & interpreting those reasons to suit a particular position. It also involves way too much generalising.

 

I partially agree with this.

Believe me, I'm not trying to generalize anything here, there were people who were very disappointed by the prequels and I can understand on a certain degree their disappointment.

But, the fact that there are many people here who do like very much the prequels contrary to what the general consensus indicates and to what I once believed, which is these movies are being "universally hated", and the fact that there's a lot of pressure to push some people to think otherwise, lead me to believe that there are some people who just agree with the general consensus without trying to observe and think by themselves.

And I'm not making up anything. I've seen that many times in other areas or for other subjects.

 

Maybe but who knows how many. Some people might also say they like them or convince themselves they do bcs they're such big SW fans. They don't want to ever admit that any SW content is bad. Or they loved the PT as kids but don't really think they're good films now, but don't want to say so due to loyalty or nostalgia. Again, it's all very complicated & no general rule can be applied. Which is why I say group psychoanalysis & re-interpreting general opinion is a fool's errand. Opinion should just be accepted for what it is.

 

Some of us love all 6 films. (7)
From the beginning. No convincing needed from any outside source or pressure.
Unbaited by haters. Just secure in knowing that SW is an awesome film universe and EU too. Enjoy as much as you can. Be grateful. TFA!

 

Star Wars has this weird extreme of conformity, you must either, hate the Prequels with a passion, bash others who like them, must like the OOT and only that versions, you have people who like the PT and only the PT, like the special editions and don't care for the OOT, and you have people like me who are more in the middle, like lots of things about most Star Wars related things besides just the movies. I love all the movies, and even though some things bug me about the PT, I have never felt the need that PT bashing extremists go to that whenever there is a Star Wars video or article, they must feel the need to complain about the PT even if the article is just about the new movie or something.

It always amuses me when OOT fans have kids who like the PT more than the OT and they don't know what to do and they can't convince them that the PT is "bad".

To those obnoxious people who would "ban" their kids from watching the PT (I wouldn't want to be your kid, I'd just skip sci-fi and probably get into anime or Star Trek instead, I'd end up hating Star Wars), just get over it and enjoy Star Wars with your kids, like you're supposed to!

 

I'm not sure you're really adding anything to conversation. Sure, in the millions of people who have seen the prequels, some are probably influenced by others to "hate" the, rather than mildly dislike them. Big deal. That doesn't do anything for you. There are surely also others who "like" them becuase they want to love anything Star Wars, and have convinced themselves to overlook flaws. Also: big deal. What ver the case, the PT is generally held in less regard than the OT. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, that's the way it is. Having said that,I do think that has changed over time. After I got over being pissed off at Lucas for some of his really stupid decisions and clumsy handling, I trasitioned from a PT hater to a PT liker. Not love.... Not yet.... But like for sure. I freely admit that my hate was fueled by a sense of missed opportunity and loss. But it was not influenced by anyone else. In fact, I'd say I was MOST against the films in my friend group. The exception might be my wife who just didn't see Ep II and III after concluding that Ep I "stinks." You can't pass off disatisfaction with the PT as simply peer pressure. And if you could, there would have to be the "peers" to begin with.

It's more useful, IMO, to discuss WHY. Fans were disappointed. Was it simply quality, or something more fundamental?

And IMO, none of that discounts the opnions of fans who genuiniely love the movies, since movies are subjective.

 

I have never overlooked what I perceive to be the flaws of the Prequel Trilogy. And I have never overlooked what I perceived to be the flaws of the Original Trilogy. I have never overlooked the flaws of any movie I have ever seen - regardless of whether I like them or not.


Personally I find it hard to accept this belief that the fans of the PT are deceiving themselves into liking it. It sounds like an argument from those fans who dislike the PT and who cannot accept the idea that there are others who do not share their opinion. I would probably say the same about a certain faction of PT fans who either dislike the 1977-1983 trilogy or who tend to dismiss those fans who dislike the 1999-2005 trilogy.

It could be a question of people who insist that others share their opinions of the movies.

 

Why?

Why is it harder to accept a bias FOR something than a bias AGAINST something?

Why is it ok to go;
A: I didn't like the PT films.
B: Yes you did, you have just been bullied/brainwashed by the evil media/RLM/Haters into thinking that you dislike the PT.

But not ok to go;
A: I liked the PT films.
B: No you didn't, you only like them because they are SW films and you have willfully ignored all the flaws.

I find both arguments equally bad because they are trying to do the same thing, invalidating a persons opinion.

A persons like/dislike should not be casually dismissed by broad generalizations.

I have come across this type of arguing here and there from time to time and it always bugs me.
Don't label people, don't put all those that have a different opinion from you into a little box, whose only function is so that you can ignore them.

If you want to discuss bias against something then in fairness you should also be open to the possibility of the opposite, a bias for something.
Same thing with nostalgia, it is a double edged sword. You can get the argument of "You only dislike it because it is different from how you imagined it in your childhood." But you can also get the "You only like it because it is about X even though it sucks."

So if you want to argue that some might have altered their like to dislike due to pressure or outside influence. Then you should also accept that some could have their like influenced by their fandom. That they like something because it is SW or they overlook flaws that would otherwise bother them.

Fandom can be a curios thing, you can both have some be overly critical and others also overly forgiving.

But this type of argument is again trying to label people or trying to argue that their opinion isn't valid because...

As such, I'd say leave it alone and deal with the actual reasons people give instead.

If someone says "I like the PT because of the political plot. " That is something that can be discussed and argued about. OR "I disliked the OT because the pacing was too uneven." That can also be talked about.

In closing, I overall liked Man of Steel, ST:ID, the Hobbit films and the Amazing Spiderman 2.
And those films have no shortage of online hate and bashing.
Do I let that influence me? No.
Do I think the films are perfect, far from it. But I still liked them.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

^ Excellent

 

I think this is the fundamental thing.

Everyone has expectations. Some expectations weren't considered by some fans to have been met properly. That is the genuine opinion of some people, and by itself, it's fine. It need not lead to bashing or any unpleasant behaviour.

At its best, it can lead to interesting and respectful debates.

That isn't the problem. The problem is the fanatics of this world, be they anti PT extremists, fundamentalist followers of religions, jerks who bash other music fans, etc. They refuse to live and let live, they ignore how their violent expression of belief will cause others to suffer, and feel perfectly in the right to be authoritarian and attempt to control or persecute others.

Anyone who is truly confident in their beliefs in a positive manner only needs to stand up and express them with strong language at certain times, when there is a genuine need for strong expression. For the most part, in this day and age, such behaviour is offensive, childish and disrespectful, no matter who or what it is directed against.

If some fans' dislike of the PT could have remained civil and reasoned, things would be quite different. Instead, what we have is a group of jerks (trolls and ex nerds turned bullies) capitalising on some other fans' disappointment, and using it to become infamous and get attention. That's where bashing, trolling, bullying, and other juvenile and pathetic behaviour comes from.

I'm saying this as someone who likes to one degree or another all six films, and who is more biased towards the OT generally. My favourite films are TESB and ROTS. I have always liked the PT a lot, but I can understand the genuine dislike some folks (such as some of the older generation like my mum) have for aspects of the PT. (note how I said some: I'm quite aware of older people who do like the PT as well)

Unlike internet trolls though, for them, it isn't an extreme thing. It's just an opinion. Anyone decent should know that opinions are opinions, no matter how strongly expressed, and that you can debate them even heatedly without resorting to aggression or bullying.

At least on TFN, things are more moderate.

 

^^ All very good points.
If people don't genuinely like PT it's totally fine by me. What baffles is the outright lies and revisionism.
Such as:

- No one really likes the PT. People only went to see the movies because it has a Star Wars brand attached to it.

That would explain initial box office (to some extent - movies don't make hundreds of millions if everyone considers them a total letdown, Star Wars or no Star Wars). But this would mean the initial interest would die down, the public would move on to something else. Which is probably what happened to many, but the interest remained strong enough that the sales of DVDs, toys, other merchandise kept going. TCW was the most popular cartoon show for boys. SW toys were the second most popular brand for boys. Blu-ray disks of the entire saga were a bestseller years after ROTS was released. Do these numbers show that Star Wars is dead and needs to be saved by JJ?

- The critics slammed the prequels.

Not true at all. The originals were received better, but mostly ANH. ESB and ROTJ reviews were just as mixed as TPM and AOTC (if not more so). ROTS had great reviews, it's still 80% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. Even TPM was fresh before the 3D rerelease that gave some geeks with vendetta a field day. The things viewers didn't like in the 80s were pretty much the same: acting, dialogue, overabundance of special effects (and that was before CGI).

- Prequels are all CGI.

Just blatantly untrue as anyone who looks at some behind the scenes documentaries would know. It's one thing to dislike a certain CGI character or even how CGI was used in general but I don't know where this 100% CGI comes from.

- TESB was great because Lucas was least involved with it (some even claim ANH was a success because Lucas was friends with other directors such as Coppola and Spielberg. Seriously)

I admit I've always felt the prequels could have benefited from more collaboration, particularly with writing, and Kersch's contribution was important, of course, but even he said Lucas and his team were crucial, too. I've never gotten around to reading the Making of Empire but it is my understanding that Lucas wrote the first drafts and most of it survived in the final version. And as for the original Star Wars... The Making of Star Wars made me realize that Lucas had trouble selling Star Wars because his ideas were so bizarre for its time that even his friends were baffled by them. I'd say Ralph MacQuarrie's concept art was probably more important in getting the project started than anything else (that's one person who did understand what Lucas was trying to do there).

 

NATIONALGREATNESS & -NaTaLie-

Well said both of you!

 

I've found this article from the prequel appreciation society: https://starwarsprequelappreciationsociety.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/why-does-the-media-hate-the-pt/

 

Oh my god a level headed person who doesn't feel the need to bash TFA and is a PT fan? Holy crap it's good to see people like you around here. I am so sick of seeing people trash TFA because they feel like if they don't, they are not being loyal to their PT films. They are all Star Wars films, the people who made this film are not the mean spirited posters on the Internet or the media that some people are so upset about. You do not need to bash the new ST to justify the PT in any way shape or form. There's more than one way to make a movie and I thought they knocked it out of the park with TFA - I am so freaking happy that we have a new ST that is off to an amazing start - and I wish some of the bitter fans who feel slighted by posters and the media would stop looking at TFA and its makers as some kind of enemy to your cause. you are allowed to like the PT, OT and ST. None of the films are enemies of each other - let the films stand on their own

 

I'm also a PT fan who liked TFA. See, I'm one of those folks who can see a film for what it is and admire their strengths while understanding their flaws.

 

I'm also a PT fan who liked TFA. See, I'm one of those folks who can see a film for what it is and admire their strengths while understanding their flaws.

 

Huh? There have been many level headed people here talking about TFA. I've seen some bashing but more so Love and just criticism from it. I have no idea where your getting all this "TFA is hated everywhere" from The PT is wildly disliked by fans, not TFA.

I've seen alot of people bash TFA. But you know what I see MORE of? I see more Criticisms from TFA. TFA isn't really being bashed a lot, but criticized a lot by many here. As

On the last part, the only SW films that pretty much can stand alone are the first 6. TFA needs the other films as crutch to make itself coherent with story.

 

That should be a general view on well, everything in the world. Criticising to the point where it's no longer our area of expertise, biases being minor and so on. But the internet made us take everything like disasters and we ignore goodthings that come our way.

I like all seven films, some more, some less. I don't, like, think anybody betrayed anybody or whatever.

And I totally see the points about TFA not being to stand on its own, being a rehashed homage at times, but I don't hate it for that.

 

This post is exactly what I've been telling people! My mom, for example, often doesn't 'get' things (not really Star Wars in this instance) but when I explain them to her in the context of historical literature, she generally realizes what she didn't before and garners greater appreciation of said thing. My sister-in-law just watched the Saga (not including TFA) for the first time, and she didn't like RotS at all until I explained it to her in terms of Greek tragedy. Now, I'm an English teacher, so these sorts of things just click with me naturally. It's a shame that others can't see the haunting poignancy of RotS and Anakin's turn sequence, as well as the socio-political commentary throughout the entirety of the saga and the PT.

 

Well, now obviously nothing's canon, which is super dumb, but we're not here to mince that. Canon used to work in a tiered system.

1. G(eorge) Canon: What Lucas Says Goes, no matter what
2. Film Canon: Everything is inherently derived from here
3. Novels/Books
4. T-Canon: TV anything
5. Comics
6. Games

So technically, following the old system, it really isn't 'official canon' it's T-Canon, and should be considered in relation to other things. So, if something in TCW contradicts with a movie or novel, then it's not actual 'canon'. I hope that helps.

 

Actually, T-canon ranked above "novels/books" and only applied to TCW, not to the old Genndy Tarkatovsky series) because Lucas was heavily involved with it.

 

Thanks for the correction. I was working off of memory. I thought there was something I didn't get quite right.

 

And, at least from Lucas's perspective, it was classed with the movies in importance:

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page


Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.