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ST POLL: The OT Characters In The Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by AnakinTheChosenOne, Oct 30, 2019.

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Are you happy with what the OT heroes accomplished for the sequel era?

  1. Yes

    25.3%
  2. No

    74.7%
  1. AnakinTheChosenOne

    AnakinTheChosenOne Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2019
    After the countless discussions on the ST and how the original three were treated do you think it would have been smart for JJ KK and LK to either kill the originals three off screen or make the movies take place years later and not involve them?

    Maybe the fans expectations would have been reasonable. Not sure, how do you feel?

    Thanks for reading!
     
  2. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Good thread topic with some interesting questions.

    My perspective is that some flawed assumptions led to the treatment of the OT characters in the ST. My outline of the flawed assumptions causing the treatment the OT characters received in the ST would be the following:

    1. There seems to have been a fear that the OT characters would overshadow the new characters introduced in the ST. This could have been overcome by focusing on the new characters and just allowing the OT characters to take meaningful but background roles as Jedi mentors or government officials. Instead the OT characters have been focused on in a way that to me has actually served to overshadow our new characters (in TLJ, Rey is overshadowed by Luke and his journey, for example) while at the same time regressing or deconstructing OT characters I loved in a manner that has just left me hollow.

    2. There seems to have been a belief that it was necessary to regress Han and Leia to their ANH selves and roles instead of giving them new selves and roles. In TFA, Leia is back to being a rebel general only this time she is leading the Resistance against the First Order instead of the Rebel Alliance against the Empire. A better course of action would've been having Leia be a leading politician of the New Republic and/or a Jedi mentor. In TFA, Han is back to being a smuggler with Chewie as his only companion. A better choice would have been having him still be with Leia and working alongside her. Then we could have seen how these characters had grown into new roles after ROTJ rather than getting the depressing message that they had regressed back to their ANH roles and selves.

    3. There seems to have been a feeling that Luke was a hero who needed deconstruction. Therefore, we couldn't have him succeed with any Jedi students prior to TFA. They all had to fall to the Dark Side or be killed by someone who fell to the Dark Side. We also couldn't have him fighting the First Order alongside his sister or doing anything meaningful on Ach-Too. He had to just be very depressed after igniting a lightsaber over his sleeping nephew in what seems to be a deliberate deconstruction of his ending with Vader in ROTJ. Luke's ending with Vader in ROTJ made him too much of a hero, so we then needed to see him as a cynical, bitter failure instead of a wise Jedi mentor to Rey.

    4. There seems to have been a mistaken conviction that in order for there to be a conflict in the ST all the achievements of the OT generation needed to be wiped out so we could have a rehash of the Empire versus Rebel Alliance plot rebranded as the First Order versus the Resistance. In truth, it would've been possible to have a conflict without destroying all the accomplishments of the OT generation. The New Republic could be struggling to establish itself instead of just blown up in one movie. Some of Luke's Jedi could have fallen, but others could have been with him, fighting Kylo and his Knights of Ren. Things like that allow for conflict but also don't take the bleakest possible path forward from ROTJ, allowing more of the OT generation's accomplishments to endure while still giving significant work for the new characters of the ST to have meaningful achievements.

    So, I think if those faulty assumptions hadn't been embraced in the ST, the ST could've portrayed the OT characters in meaningful ways while still allowing the ST characters to shine and establish themselves in ways that could resonate with the audience.

    However, if those faulty assumptions were treated as unalterable givens, I would've preferred a story that took place long in the future after the OT characters had died so I could imagine that some of the OT generation's accomplishments had lasted longer and so I wouldn't have watched them regressed to their ANH selves or deconstructed so as to be inconsistent with their ROTJ selves.
     
  3. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    It wasn’t necessary, but I would have preferred a distant future to what we got. I didn’t enjoy Harrison’s or Mark’s returns at all. I didn’t get even he slightest enjoyment out of seeing them again. Carrie had a few brief moments, but wasn’t given a good role to work with.

    I think the latter could have really worked. It’s a believable, natural growth from ROTJ, while being new and fresh at the same time because we’ve never seen Jedi Leia before.

    Another idea would be an established New Republic pushed to the brink of defeat (but not actually annihilated) like in the PT, but this time it survives because the heroes do things right this time.

    I like this, too, it would be different. OT had few Force wielders. PT had many Jedi, but few Sith. The ST can be an even fight, or close to it, with significant numbers on both sides.

    But many lightsabers would be reminiscent of the PT, and clearly LFL wanted to avoid that, so they went with the already done OT mold of 2v2. The choice they made was both unnatural and boring.
     
  4. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I prefer the OT characters in it because it makes the entire 9 part series an intergenerational story. It's consistent with the PT characters being in the OT in a secondary role that still feels important to fostering the new generation.

    I also actually like the idea of making the OT characters more flawed and tragic the way the ST has done. I think it humanizes them and makes their journeys feel more complete and interesting. Their stories didn't just end with ROTJ - they continued to fight and struggle throughout their lives and changed as a result of that. I think that's a surprisingly satisfying direction to take the characters when they could have just been deified into their ideal roles - Luke as a Strong Jedi Master and Leia as the chancellor of the new republic (blah blah blah). The direction they took is not what I would have expected of Disney.

    I also like that aspects of their original struggles in the OT remain with them. Luke still sometimes lets his fears get the best of him, Han still struggles with commitment and retaining a strong moral compass...etc. Again, makes them more human and interesting (to me).

    The problem is that the film makers leaned way too much in this direction to the point where it kinda dominates the new characters' development. Han and Luke just abandoning everything off screen after what goes down with Kylo is a lot to take in. Could it happen? Sure. But it's not narratively satisfying to put these characters back so far that they each have to spend an entire movie getting back to where they were when we left off in ROTJ. Luke struggling after failing with his nephew is a compelling idea on paper, but did we really need a whole movie of him completely exiling himself and giving up in every way? Luke struggling with failure should have been in the background of the main story the way Yoda and Obi Wan training Luke and placing their hope in the future was in the OT. Rey and Finn's development becomes less interesting when Han and Luke take up sooo much of the movies' stories.

    And I say this all as someone who is relatively okay with Han and Luke's stories in TFA/TLJ! I think both characters end on an emotionally satisfying note. Han sacrifices himself for the slim chance of saving his son. Luke accepts his flaws and does his best to live up to his legendary status to inspire others. Both these endings IMO act as a great epilogue for each of the characters' journeys. But did they each need to take up as much storytelling space in the ST movies as they did? Their falls didn't need to be quite so regressive and attention-consuming.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  5. fugacity

    fugacity Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2018
    I think there has to be continuity for a saga to be a saga. Many years passing, dead participants, new conflict all equal new saga.

    For the ST to be the ST, it needed to live in the lifespan of the legacy characters, and they needed to be involved with some continuation of the galactic civil war conflict. And yes, anything outside of treating them with kid gloves was going to rub some sector of fandom the wrong way.

    While i would have loved to see Luke cross light sabers, and I'd like to have seen all three of the main legacies in the cockpit of the falcon, I'd rather have something less cliche (in my opinion) then everything turning out as expected. That scenario doesn't leave room for anything but "the continuing adventurers of Han Luke and Leia."

    Things went wrong, something shook our heroes to the core and placing the ROTJ victory in peril, and we get to see their epilogue along with the story of a new generation. We can argue execution, but the overall arc is solid even if the characters you hold dear are flawed and falter.

    As part of fandom, I applaud the decision to not just make movies for EU fans and children of the 80's that spent a lot of time imagining "the rest of the story". (I'm also one of those).
     
  6. Miles Lodson

    Miles Lodson Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 1998
    @devilinthedetails great post.

    It seems to me that JJ and Kasdan were insistent that the ST first and foremost not be anything like the PT.

    So if that is true, then you can't have Leia be a politician (because that would require politics - which was bad in the PT) and you can't have Luke training successful students (because that would be just like the jedi order in the PT).
     
  7. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I don't think they were the only ones. I think this was a general consensus amongst the higher ups. We know that KK, Iger, and Horn were also involved in the decision of direction. The moment they decided on a soft reboot approach, I think the writing was on the wall for the OT3.
     
  8. wobbits

    wobbits Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2017
    I agree. In order to prop up their new characters and steer clear from anything in the PT including the Chosen One prophecy they felt they had to regress and degrade the OT3. I'd have rather not even had the OT3 in the film based on how they've been treated. Makes me nervous now for any appearance by Anakin, if we get one at all.
     
  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Chiznuk Edit: No spoilers for upcoming movies are allowed in this forum.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2019
  10. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @CT-867-5309 Now that you mention it, I would've loved to see the New Republic pushed to the brink of disintegration like in the PT but instead of falling as in the PT managed to rise above those challenges and become stronger for having faced them. That would reflect the difficulty of establishing a new form of government, be a sort of echo with a different ending to the PT so that there is a sense of connection between the saga, and the fact that the New Republic survives rather than falls ensures that there is a sense of hope to end the saga and a feeling that the OT heroes did achieve their goals.

    I also agree that it could have been really cool to have evenly matched and multiple Light Siders versus Dark Siders, since it would've been different than what we had really gotten to see before in the saga. I think more of that sort of conceptual freshness would've improved the ST tremendously in my opinion.

    @Miles Lodson I think you're right that there was an aversion to being seen as too interested in politics with the ST, and honestly I think that backfired on the ST since much of the needed political backstory to really make sense of what is happening in the ST just simply isn't there. Backstory in general is actually one of the biggest weaknesses of the ST.
     
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The sheer fear of the dreaded Prequel Politics is quite astonishing. Especially given that politics ran right the way through the OT, I mean what is a civil war if not a political matter at heart?
     
  12. fugacity

    fugacity Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2018
    Int he PT the politics were too much, too convoluted and executed poorly. Other than that there was nothing wrong with the political intrigue. The concept was good.

    The guy that loved to say "star wars is for 8 year olds" made movies that no child could pretend to follow. A little government would have been nice in TFA, but then again, what's the story we're being told? Backstory is a different story. It's a little like saying the OT suffered from a lack of back story.
     
  13. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    the poltics in the OT was very straight forward without any nuance. Empire bad rebelion good. that's it. there is nothing about how the Empire controls everything other then fear and "regional goveners" I mean it didn't have to be anything more and it works.


    The PT though... Lucas had some interesting ideas but ones that didn't pull off very well like the Queen of Naboo being an elected official who was 13 when she was elected... the idea that a 13 year old girl could run a planet as well as negotiate trade deals is a little far fetched. I mean it can work if she is a princess and born into it but otherwise it means that the entire population of the planet (except Gungans they aren't allowed to vote on who rules their planet) decided this girl was the one to lead them.

    kind of insane
     
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  14. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'd like to see something like the Legacy comics. Force Ghost appearance by Luke, the droids, some character impacted by the events of the PT and or OT as a major character in the ST ala Darth Krayt being A'Sharad Hett, a Jedi from the Old Republic. Some event during one of the wars becomes a plot point in the next trilogy. Like the devastation wrought in the Yuuzhan Vong War, trying to be fixed but something tampered with it, to cause a new war.
     
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    There's no real way of defending an opening scrawl that is focused on trade route taxation, but to go to the other extreme to avoid that doesn't make sense to me either.

    ANH had the whole Mofference scene which is entirely politics so, if we agree it's all about execution - and it looks like we do - then there was nothing stopping the St from venturing into this area to at least a minimal degree.
     
  16. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    When I learned that Han, Luke, and Leia would be back for this new trilogy, my expectation was that they would function very much like Yoda and Obi-Wan did in the OT.....they'd be important characters, but not THE main focus. Their scenes would have major impact, but that they were to be passing things on to the new generation. I was not expecting Star Trek motion pictures where the old gang gets back together for adventures as senior citizens. Clearly, that's not what has happened. For the most part, I think that has worked well.

    I see a lot of talk about the OT characters regressing to their "old selves." While I can certainly see this perspective, I don't think it's true.... at all.

    Example A: Han Solo

    Sure, Han is back to his smuggling/adventurous ways with Chewie in TFA, but his outlook on life is much different than in ANH. No longer is he the cynical, non believer of this "mumbo jumbo" known as The Force. In TFA, he is essentially in the Obi-Wan Kenobi/mentor role. He still is very much tied/connected to Leia and her cause. There is a line of progression from the softening of Han Solo seen in ROTJ (holding Leia on the bridge, etc.) to the man we see in TFA. It's beautiful. He is still a sarcastic scoundrel, but he is compassionate. Ultimately this compassion is gets him killed...which is tragic. Han Solo dies because, in that moment on the bridge, he is completely selfless and has his guard down. We've never really seen Han like that...stripped of all his attitude and totally genuine. Even when he was being tortured and put into Carbon Freeze in ESB, he was still full of bravado, and "I know" cockiness. The Han Solo in TFA is still the Han we know love, but with a new layer that been added.

    Example B: Luke Skywalker

    One of the biggest complaints of TLJ is the characterization of Luke Skywalker. I won't rehash all of those views here, but I will say this: When considering Luke, anyone claiming that the OT leads have "regressed" are either, not paying attention, or are hypocrites. You don't have to Luke's place in the ST, but you cannot claim that he is both "not your Luke" and that he has "regressed." The whole point is that he has changed, that he has been traumatized, disillusioned, and is not optimistic. This is a rough place to put our hero in, and some fans will debate forever on if he successfully "makes a comeback." To me, it was a bold choice to pull a Rocky 3 with Luke Skywalker and the payoff (except for his death*) worked for me.

    Overall, I think a nice balance has been struck. If anything, the new cast has a bit more screen time and plot emphasis than I expected. Sure, I could bemoan the deaths of my favorite Star Wars characters, but as I said...I kind of expected it. Han and Luke are as Obi-Wan and Yoda were in the OT. I am interested to see what they do with Leia in Episode 9.

    *IMO Luke's death was too soon, and a bit too vague. It was beautifully done, but it felt like it should have been saved for the 3rd act. Maybe after Episode 9 I will be happy that it was done this way, maybe not.
     
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  17. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I feel like a lot of Han's growth in the OT was that he had developed from someone whose caring was only limited to Chewie to somebody who was capable of loving Leia and caring about the fate of the galaxy as a whole. Then in the ST we find out that he didn't love Leia enough to stick with her and that he doesn't care enough about the galaxy to fight the First Order of which his son is second in command, preferring to spend his time smuggling. That feels a lot like going back to his OT self, since he is back to being a selfish smuggler whose only meaningful relationship is with Chewie. He believes in the Force now, but his essential character concept is the same as it was in ANH, ignoring much of his character growth in ESB and ROTJ in order to facilitate the plot of TFA being as much of a rehash as ANH as possible.

    My feelings about Luke have been explained in detail in the Luke thread, so I won't reiterate here too much. For me, it suffices to say that Luke who would risk death to redeem his mass-murdering father to someone who ignites his lightsaber over his sleeping nephew because he had bad thoughts. Yeah, by that act alone Luke went from someone whom I could admire and regard as having attained a high level of spiritual enlightenment to someone I would regard as borderline psychotic and certainly not spiritually mature. That one act pretty much cost Luke all the respect he had built with me over the course of the OT. That's not even getting into his throwing the lightsaber and making embarrassing bitter rants about the Jedi. Honestly, if I'd been asked to write something that destroyed Luke's character, I'm not even sure I could have done a better job than TLJ did.
     
  18. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    My understanding is that Leia pushed Han away or kind of kicked him out after Ben turned. It's not that he didn't love her...he obviously did...it's that she was reminded of Ben everytime she looked at Han. She runs the Resistance, therefore Han's not going to be able to fight with them. Essentially, their family was fractured when Kylo Ren came to be. This seemed logical and (maybe a bit too) real world. After a family/child tragedy, lots of loving couples find it nearly impossible to stay together. In some ways I get the feeling that Leia blamed Han..or he felt that way.

    Obviously, you are entitled to your takeaway from these movies, but these are some fairly loaded words and extreme leaps. I am not saying you are wrong...it's your perspective. They are extremely negative slants though, no?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  19. fugacity

    fugacity Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2018
    The over simplification of what's in TLJ results in a movie nobody would like. Extremely negative slants based on essentially characterization of the movie is kind of the lay of the land.
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @jaimestarr I had the impression it was Han who left Leia because he said that he went back to the only thing he was ever good at (which apparently is smuggling, since the ST believes that is all Han was ever good at it seems). Leia replies that she also went back to what she was good at, so it seems that they both by self-admittance regressed back to their ANH selves which apparently embody the only things they were ever good at, an extremely depressing message from my point of view. Either way, though, it's all the choice of the ST to have Han and Leia split up because their son went to the Dark Side. It's also the ST's choice to make their son go to the Dark Side and to make that son their only kid. They didn't have to make all of those choices, which basically amount to the bleakest possible way forward for Han and Leia given the ending of ROTJ. They could've made Han and Leia a couple that suck together and developed an even stronger relationship when faced with hardships. Instead they chose to do the opposite. I don't agree with their choice and probably never will.

    To me, the negative slant on Luke came from what happened in TLJ such as him milking space cows, throwing a lightsaber, ranting against the Jedi, and for the crowning glory igniting a lightsaber over his sleeping nephew. I'm just describing events and actions that occurred in the film. I didn't invent those events and actions, and indeed if it were up to me, Luke would've been allowed to be the wise mentor type.
     
  21. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I get it. The plot didn’t work for you.

    I will tell you this: Han and Leia worked for me for two reasons-
    1. They still clearly are in love with each other and the film depicts this hard. I think their relationship was full of verisimilitude.*

    2. You ever read and old EU/legends? Domesticated and New Republic ambassador Han was always so boring. Don’t get me wrong, I believe there’s a way that this version of hon could be written interestingly. I just never saw in all the EU books that I ever read. I was relieved to see that the Han on screen still retained that scoundrel wit, charm, and attitude that I love so much.

    As far as Luke goes. It was a bold choice. I would’ve liked it much better if he would not have died at the end of the film.

    *Shout out to Richard Donner and Superman: the movie for teaching me this word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  22. Miles Lodson

    Miles Lodson Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 1998
    @jaimestarr the massive difference between Rocky 3 and TLJ is that the writers of Rocky 3 had the good sense to show us Rocky's regression on screen. We get to see and experience his fall, right along with him. The movie dedicates at least a third of its running time to this character development. As such we are along for the ride and 100% bought in.

    RJ - because he cared most of all about subverting audience expectations - gives us a Luke that is fundamentally different than the character we saw in the OT. And then expects us to go along for the ride.
     
  23. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    So TROS will be like Rocky IV?
     
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  24. Tython Awakening

    Tython Awakening Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2017
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    If it dies, it dies.
     
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