main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. The Boards Are Now Reopened For Business:

    READ THIS: your ability to post here depends upon it.. See the new rules thread here. Bans can and will be handed out to anyone who doesn't abide by the forum rules.

  3. Our celebration of the 20 Years of the Jedi Council is over!

    Here's to 20 more years!

  4. Our celebration of the 20 Years of the Jedi Council is over!

    Here's to 20 more!

Discussion Poll: Your thoughts on the KoR taking over the FO & forcing Kylo to become a temp ally?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode IX - Spoilers Allowed' started by Ender_and_Bean, Dec 2, 2018.

?

Could a new villain work if well-executed?

  1. A) Yes. It’s possible.

    17 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. B) No. It’s not possible any more.

    34 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Kylo Ren has been defeated already, making him less of a threat.

    He’s also done too much evil for a redemptive arc unless the audience sees him to do far more than just one helpful and sacrificial act at the very end.

    This leaves them in a difficult spot heading into IX. Especially if they want to pay off some of the complications that arose from Rey and Ben briefly believing the other would join them.

    Enter a new villain or in the case of the Knights of Ren... several. I know what you’re thinking. We have never had a new villain take such a big role in a Star Wars trilogy yet. We’ve had mini bosses but nobody brand new. But what if we learned that one of the Knights of Ren had played a larger role in Luke going to check on Ben that night and had believed from Snoke it was always him destined for greatness and not Ben Solo. Imagine a mini setup of the character kind of like we’ve seen them do before in Trek or Marvel before. Could it work? Imagine this new guy played by Matt Smith and scarier, smarter and more powerful than Kylo Ren. Perhaps he even beats him outright. Suddenly only Rey, Finn and Ben can defeat him and the Knights and the FO if they can work together. Couldn’t that be a fun way to end? The audience could spend more time with Ben Solo and see if he’s changing and becoming better and that question could be interesting as the film winds down. Most of all it would be him needing Rey and Finn and the Resistance to defeat them.

    Share your thoughts in the comments and vote.
     
    KSennia likes this.
  2. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    This is the intended thread. Had a hang up and submitted twice. The other is a duplicate. My apologies.
     
  3. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    It's too late. This is the last movie in the Skywalker saga (for now) so all the focus will be on Kylo not some new villain that we will have only 1 movie to get invested in.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    afrojedi and wobbits like this.
  4. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    But isn’t one movie enough in other properities? Think of how much you got to know about Khan or Killmonger or the Joker from only one movie. The key would be to make it seem like they had been a larger participant in some of the bigger events of this ST than we initially realized and to show that in a flashback that intros their past before we meet him them in the present and watch them prepare to make their move.

    Matt Smith may have tried out for Kylo Ren around the same time that Eddie Redmayne did so its possible JJ saw him as a major presence and now has the role for him.

    There can be an advantage in not being as known. You can seem scarier and more capable and harder to defeat. All of that could benefit the finale even if we don’t know this personal as well.

    They could also use Kylo to talk about what makes him dangerous and how he has few weaknesses.

    What’s the worst that could happen, really? A scarier villain with 6 force using helpers that seems harder to beat emerges and we just know that person less? The FO would still represent the larger antagonism we do know and want to see beaten anyway. Same with Hux. He’d still be there chewing the s energy and smugly enjoying Kylo Ren’s defeat.

    Plus the questions would be more interesting.

    What would he do?
    How would the Resistance react to him?
    How would Finn react and vice versa?
    How would Rey react?
    What could he do to help that would make the audience wonder if he’s truly starting to change?
    What footage do they have of Leia that could be worked in?
    Wouldn’t it be fun to see them and Finn take on the Knights and Hux? Let Finn take on Hux for creating the child program. Have a 2 on 7 fight for the epic finale.

    There’s more interesting questions for what might happen if they do that then if it’s just Rey on the light working her way to Kylo on the Dark for one final fight and that’s it.
     
    KSennia likes this.
  5. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Wasn’t Kylo their leader? Being a bunch of darksiders, if the KOR had means to take over Kylo Ren they would’ve done it already.

    Plus we already had Kylo + Rey vs A Bunch Of Mooks. Though I wouldn’t put it past JJ Abrams to make some kind of rehash of that.
     
  6. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Perhaps Snoke seemed to protect him a little bit from others as he did Hux and if they are out there on some Snoke-driven mission it’s possible that the absence of Kylo has made one feel like they’re the new boss of the group.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  7. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Being the 3rd film of the trilogy its probably pointless to try something like that. you might aswell follow through with Kylo till the end.
     
  8. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    OK, but this is not "other properties," and this is a once in a lifetime situation in closing the Skywalker trilogy; the end of 9 movies and countless other stories. I wouldn't look as those as good comparisons for too many reasons to even write. The focus has already been brought up, which is to bring the whole saga together with some closure (as it should be if this is the last movie of the saga).

    Kylo's power will have continued to grow (i.e. Luke between the last 2 movies of the OT). I'm sure he will be the main villain. Bringing in an overarching baddie at this point would not be a good look; 2 hours is not a lot of time to tie together a whole saga; developing a main baddie is just something they won't do IMO, and shouldn't.

    Kylo and the FO will be as good in their villainy as JJ is able to make them, which hopefully will be great, or at least good. I know this site has their skeptics, but success doesn't depend on pleasing them, it depends on the GA. IMO the idea it is impossible to make Kylo a good closing villain is absurd. Like everything else, it depends on execution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  9. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    How do you redeem him if not for a scenario like the one in the OP? And if you don’t redeem him then what is the final statement of the entire family saga?

    That the Skywalkers were a stain on the galaxy and that no family members had the heart to put any of them at their dark side worst out of their misery? That the OT3 wanted Ben Solo to come back for nothing and were foolish and needed Rey of Jakku to do the dirty deed they could not and kill Kylo?

    The longer Kylo is evil the more likely those kinds of statements seem likely.

    A new villain is literally his only chance to win over the GA that he’s changed somewhat because it allows them to spend more time with him against a common enemy and look for signs of change.
     
    Immortiss likes this.
  10. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    You make a lot of assumptions (that I don't think you can really make at this point) about the direction they are intending to go, and exactly what the GA cares about.

    The one thing I think we have learned at this point is not to make assumptions about the direction they will go, and certainly to not draw conclusions based on those assumptions. And remember, the only thing the GA cares about is a good, satisfying movie. They have no sentimental attachment or expectations regarding the Skywalker family; important not to collude fandom with your typical moviegoer.
     
    wobbits likes this.
  11. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Even if you separate the vast history of the Skywalkers from it this ST could play like a radicalized son and nephew whose parents and uncle would rather he returned and who the hero even would rather become better. Are they really setting all of that up for an old yeller situation with a final statement of sometimes you just have to put a rabid dog down?

    Seems hard to believe in a way that would be their final statement in this.
     
  12. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Superhero movies are different from Fantasy movies. Voldemort was the overarching villain throughout the entire HP saga. Sauron was the villain for the LOTR trilogy. Palpatine/Vader/Anakin were the overarching bad guys for 6 of the SW films.

    There is no time to get invested in a new villain that was barely mentioned in the previous films. On top of that the KOR importance has never been made key to Kylo's story. Only Rey, Luke, Han, Leia and Snoke have been made importantimportant to his story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    afrojedi likes this.
  13. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    I think it will be more complicated than that. Kind of a funny comparison you made though. :)
     
  14. Blobofat

    Blobofat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2000
    Love. You can redeem him by having Rey killed by the FO which rips him apart and makes him turn against the FO.
     
  15. Lee_

    Lee_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    I doubt JJ would kill Rey off....
     
  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    This franchise needs a new breed of villain, and I'm gonna give it to em'.
     
    godisawesome likes this.
  17. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Do you realize you've posted this exact post, almost verbatim, over and over in multiple threads for many months?
     
    dlbates likes this.
  18. dlbates

    dlbates Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2014
    There is as much chance of Darth Plagueis appearing out of nowhere as there is of Kylo Ren not being the big bad up until at least some sort of redemption.
     
  19. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Mostly in the existing films thread. Not in a place where others who don’t go there would be able to chime in. And never with a poll option.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  20. xaxiomatic

    xaxiomatic Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2015
    I would be ok with this if it turns out to be Rey. It is probably the only way you can get me to pay for a ticket at this point.
     
  21. RiddleMeThis

    RiddleMeThis Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2017
    I don't think it's about your ideas not being visible or accessible without having its own thread. Maybe people aren't commenting much because they've actually seen your posts many times and don't want to repeat themselves, or simply aren't interested.
     
    dlbates likes this.
  22. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I took some time to think about this, since it occurred to me that Palpatine turning up in ROTJ is the closest parallel to the described idea...

    ...and I still don't think to would work. Palpatine established his credentials as the Final Boss by having shown control over Vader in ESB and continuing to casually lord his control and more vile nature over Vader throughout ROTJ from very early on, and Vader in the OT doesn't become dynamic until he and Luke are in the same room again in ROTJ, plus, quite frankly, the ST has already tackled its version of the "enemies turned allies" story. If he ends up on the same side as Rey, this time it should be permanent, lest we end up wasting the character like WWE wasted the Big Show with too many heel and face turns.

    Kylo's been too dynamic across two films, and too much in focus as a "villain on the rise," to be replaced at such a late date. Killing Snoke after killing Han combined to make him more ruthless than Vader and more dedicated to the cause; beyond making him an engaging villain (as much as I hate TLJ, the character was sold to me in TFA very well), the "evil-meter" for the character means that breaking him from that dedication and delusion will be a far more impressive and resonant victory than mopping up whatever place-holder anatgonist takes his job for 20 minutes.

    There is one kind of sorta-exception I'll voice: if you had Snoke's dark side revenant reappear as a kid fo haunting spirit tormenting Kylo and the other Knights, I think that could kind of work, but that's largely because doing so would allow him to be differentiated from a Palpatine clone and to tackle whatever he did to Bento make him fall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    AhsokaSolo likes this.
  23. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    The Emperor was also mentioned in ANH, and shown via hologram in ESB, before physically showing up in ROTJ. We haven’t heard mention of or seen any evidence of Plagueis in TFA or TLJ. So him appearing in the last film, with no setup, would not be the equivalent of Palpatine in ROTJ at all. Not even close.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  24. Generational Fan

    Generational Fan Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2015
    I think that it is plausible from two points of view.

    Firstly, the Knights of Ren being the big baddies in this film helps setup for the next trilogy in 10, 11 and 12.

    And the "technicality" that Lucasfilm could pull is that yes this is the end of the Skywalker saga, but not the end of Anakin's bloodline; the end is purely from the perspective of the surname Skywalker being used.

    So I'm up for the Knights of Ren being the big baddies because they are potentially the only remaining "bad" Force Users in the galaxy outside of Kylo Ren; unless Snoke was the apprentice to someone much greater and more powerful.

    The end of this trilogy (the 3rd movie) is also the lynch pin and link for the next trilogy.
     
  25. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I'm a bit confused at this thread title, but...

    I voted for "too late." In a 3rd film of a trilogy-especially if it's supposed to be seen more as an ending as opposed to a cliffhanger/intro to a new series, I'm sure the focus will be on Kylo Ren. Just how they'll handle him in an effective way, given what's happened so far, I have no idea.

    But I'm willing to see what they go for.