ST Poll: Your thoughts on the KoR taking over the FO & forcing Kylo to become a temp ally?

The entire movie builds up to a confrontation between Ren and Rey. I'm willing to bet money Ren will be the big bad all the way to the end or at least up to only 30-45 minutes left if they want him to be redeemed and do some suicide mission or whatever against the FO.

 

He doesn't believe in the rule of 2. That's why he has the KOR.... the Sith before Bane also didnt follow a rule of 2. Neither do the Jedi. The Banite Sith are dead, no more rule of 2 unless Ren (the new darkside master) decides to adopt the rule. Maybe he has a rule of 7 or 8 or no limit at all. Maybe he wants the KOR to basically be a dark jedi order.

 

The villains in the ST are so disappointing to me. Snoke turned out to be a joke, so now we're left with Darth Emo and General Hugs. If Rey wasn't in wuv with Darth Emo the first order would already be toast. But cos she couldn't harm her bae they'll get to grrrrs around the galaxy until either Darth Emo gives up his goth days for the girl, or she tearfully kills him for the greater good. An actual villain spanking Darth Emo and sending him gift wrapped home to Rey would be fun, but I doubt it will happen.

 

Having other characters such as KOR also can limit a confrontation as you mention above. Some feel if the movie comes down to a duel between the two only that would be anticlimactic and too obvious to produce a great ending much less interesting.

 

I'm just saying Ren will be the big bad and his little followers won't be forcing him to do anything.

 

I think it's more likely that Hux will coup against Kylo. The bulk of the First Order military will side with Hux but the Knights of Ren will side with Kylo. The infighting will weaken the First Order to the point where the Resistance can stand a chance against them.

This will bring about Rey's prediction that her going to help Kylo will lead to the defeat of the First Order. Her helping Kylo helped him become Supreme Leader, which led to Hux's coup and ultimately the First Order's downfall.

 

There needs to be a new antagonist introduced if Kylo is to be redeemed at the end of this trilogy. I'd imagined if JJ will use the KOR in this film then it's probably one of them if not all turning on their master. So many possiblitlies that could play out if the KOR are reintroduced. I can't wait to see it all wrapped up and the sorry %#& babies whining about it.

 

Kylo is by far the most interesting character of the ST, so I want more of him.

 

Something like this seems possible, but I wouldn't like it. I want them to make Kylo a proper villain.

 

Worth revisiting the discussion now in light of this latest Making Star Wars info which strongly suggests the story will go this way?

 

I hate the idea of some random unforeseen villain appearing in the third act just to pave the way for Kylo's redemption. I haven't become invested in Kylo's arc just for some bigger and badder villain to appear in the third act. Unfortunately, RJ left the KoR puzzle to be solved by IX and there will have to be some explanation as to why the Knights of Ren have not been heard from or seen in the trilogy, so there is logic to that MSW rumor.

 

Anything that reduces Boyega and Ridley and Isaac to just baggage along for the ride is not what I want.

Don't need some Doomsday or Darkseid versus Kylo Ren even if the speculation is the type of idea that makes Chris Terrio excited.

It also makes killing off Snoke in the last movie even more pointless just to create a new Snoke.

 

Prior to the PT in some ways the Emperor stole the antagonism more overtly from everyone. Now, granted... it was handled MUCH BETTER and we knew he was the big bad much earlier, with the prequels massively helping that even further obviously, but functionally, from a storytelling perspective, it didn’t hurt ROTJ for this being (we didn’t know much about him at the time) to just completely steal the antagonism fully and become someone that we the audience wanted to see beaten.

They can do that with Matt Smith as a new leader. It will not go down as smoothly. It will be set up worse. However, I truly believe it can still work if they give us a really good flashback that sets up who he was the night of the massacre, his history with Snoke and Ben, and why he’s a larger threat than Ben.

Having someone less complicated to outright hate for all in the audience will make the ending more enjoyable for a larger share of the audience because killing Kylo Ren and the last of the Skywalker family may not give a triumphant feeling for all (and I believe it’s a sizable group) who want there to be some payoff for the sacrifices and faith his dad, mom, uncle and Rey all had in him at various times.

Between less than ideal antagonism in the finale and a better ending for the entire IX episode story I EASILY choose the latter. Trek and Marvel (and ROTJ) have shown that it’s possible to have someone become the universally hated bad guy in a single movie that most want to see beaten.

 

I don’t mean to double post but I’m past the point of editing the above to reply to @MagnarTheGreat ‘s point about how it would make Snoke’s death more pointless.

While I can understand why some would feel this way, I’d like to share a couple reasons why I do not.

1) Snoke’s death could be weaved into part of the story for Matt Smith and the other Knights turning on Kylo Ren, filling in more of the backstory on the total dynamic of the group and some of their respective backstories. Perhaps Matt Smith’s character has little respect for Kylo Ren and did respect Snoke. There’s potential to flesh this out more.

2) Seeing how Ben handles being at the top still allowed us to experience something we didn’t get to see with Vader. I’d argue that having him in power to start IX for a bit will be one of the more fresh experiences we’ve received in this trilogy in distancing itself from what happened with Vader at the end of ROTJ. Seeing what life is like at the top briefly will be interesting and seeing others plot to take his spot could be dramatic. Not killing Snoke would have simply followed the OT template of saving him for the end and the redemption to come instead of the power play. This shows us the power was still more desirable for the Dark Side user than actual relationships and that could lead to the realization that power is empty without people to share it with and that power is not all that it’s cracked up to be. Killing Snoke allows them to explore this from some different angles than what the OT already did. Something that I welcome.

 

There's no option for "WTF that's convoluted as HELL!".

Seriously the only way would be if Snoke were like their lord and deity and they are coming to seek revenge for his death. Or they are the keepers of the dark side continuation or who knows what the F it would be.

 

Also with (1) above: It is likely that whoever the KoR are, they are darksiders. Darksiders have always been shown to turn on each other for the sake of power in the SW universe, Sith or not. It could easily be that they do not return for vengeance, but rather they were kept in check by Snoke, but do not fear Kylo Ren at all. (Isn't this the problem we've had in toppling dictators worldwide-the power vacuum brings out even crazier elements to contend to rule?)

with (2): This could be pretty awesome indeed. We never really saw anyone rule completely. We got very few scenes of even the Emperor actually ruling the galaxy. We saw him conspiring to take power, and the very end of his rule, but almost nothing of what he actually did. Kylo Ren as master of the galaxy could have alot of things to do.....

 

I would not expect the KOR to become the big bad that isn't the plan. Too late for it. What they will do is work with Kylo until something happens like they hear him make an offer to Rey to join him and a scrap will take place involving them. I am not expecting their role to be replacing Kylo in any way.

 

It all depends on how the KOR are presented in the next film. If we see them early on (opening scene, I'm hoping) and they're shown to be dissatisfied with Snoke's demise and Kylo's reign, then things could work where they're the main antagonists halfway through the movie. Esposition of where they were in the last two movies is essential, though. My money's on they were deployed as Snoke's emissaries right after the New Republic's capital was destroyed. The theory that they were sent to search for whom or whatever doesn't make any sense to me, because the FO's focus at this point seems totally poised on taking control of the known Galaxy and not the exploration of the unknown regions.

The MacGuffin that could stir up all this drama could be what was presented by RJ in TLJ: the young Force sensitive on Canto Bight. This might be what brings Rey to Kylo again and cause the latter's redemption. Maybe their master's orders to not kill the boy upsets the KOR, who would see this kid as a future threat to the FO and insist that he be destroyed, and this is what causes the rift between them.

 

The bad guys in Star Wars... the Empire and First Order... have both had a Religious leader with a Secular Army and Administration. And an arm of Religious zealots kept on the side for special purposes.

An fine twist would be for the Religious Zealots to completely take over. Snoke is gone, so their chains are off. Hux to find that he's not just answering to Snoke or Kylo, but to a large group of Darkside lunatics.

In such a situation Kylo might seem rational.

 

I expect we will be seeing some new 'baddies' in IX, but nobody will be replacing Kylo Ren as the main villian at this stage.
I'm imagining that there will be a terminal falling-out between Kylo Ren and Hux of some sort (been building for a while, right?) and this will either lead to the First Order being effectively split into two with one side under Hux (or those loyal to him, should he die), or Kylo Ren will stright up abandon the First Order and form his own army (Knights of Ren included, perhaps?). I expect we've seen the last of any good in Kylo now - the humiliation at the hands of Luke and the rejection from Rey have seen to that. He'll be badder than ever before, but on top of that we may end up with other bad guys for the Resistance to deal with.

 

I still think there will be some kind of threat beyond Kylo. The theme of rise, fall and redemption runs deep in the saga. We saw it with Anakin, we saw it with Luke (though his was a different type of fall). I just can't see unredeemed Kylo fitting with the theme of the saga. It might work for the ST but I just don't feel it for the saga as a whole. I'm sure JJ could make it work, but right now it seems like that would be a very down note to end the Skywalker story on. So a second threat, be it the Knights of Ren or something else would work as a potential catalyst for Kylo to turn against the FO (or the FO turn against him) and begin his road to redemption. Plus if he is redeemed, it gives him and Rey a force sensitive threat to face in a lightsaber duel at the climax. Which, for me, works better than just a Rey v Kylo duel as we've see that before and know how that goes (again, I'm sure they will make this work if they do go in this direction).

 

Oh, I don't doubt they could do it without. The seeds were already sown in TFA and especially TLJ, where he got what he wanted but it was a hollow victory. I just said a threat from KoR (or whoever) could act as a catalyst for him moving in that direction. I agree, actual redemption needs to come from within. It can't be love for Leia or Rey (though that can be a factor). He has to want it for himself. It was said pretty clearly that Kylo hides behind his mask. And we know he's wearing it again in IX. We're going to learn why and it's almost certainly going to come off again. He's not in a mentally stable place and that's almost certainly going to play into it in some way.

Plus, from a movie perspective, if they are going for proper a redemption arc, rather than Vader style redemption just before dying, adding a new threat gives Rey and Kylo other force users to fight during the climax. If they go that way. It could end up just being Rey vs Kylo. But, honestly Rey has never lost a fight and Kylo has never won one (except when fighting alongside Rey). They'd need to do 2 duels and Rey lose the first or some very good story work to bring drama to that duel. Not saying it can't or won't be done, just that it's an uphill slope to make it satisfying after TFA/TLJ.

As for Rey and Finn, I guess I don't see how the KoR will detract from Rey and Finn. It's not like the movie will be devoted to them and it's likely only one or two would have significant presence or screen time. Every Star Wars movie adds new characters, it's all in how they are used. Brining the Emperor in for ROTJ didn't demote Luke and Leia. Grievous didn't reduce Anakin or Obi-Wan's roles.

 

I have never wanted something more in my life...