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ST Post your unanswered questions for TROS!

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by HevyDevy, Dec 18, 2019.

  1. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Funny thing is that barely anyone talks about it. It neither wowed the crowd nor created a controversy like weaponized hyperspace from TLJ. I have a feeling they thought lightspeed skip was going to be weaponized hyperspace but awesome but it landed with a thud. Kind of like how they really tried to make D0 happen and yet people ignored him and loved Babu Frik instead, who wasn't even featured in marketing.
     
    Billy_Dee_Binks likes this.
  2. datatapes

    datatapes Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2016
    When Poe said that every (world-destroying) cannon (on a star destroyer) that gets destroyed is a world saved... is he implying that each of those cannons is single-use, or is he just trying to be poetic? I would have expected that each cannon could be fired multiple times and destroy multiple worlds, just like the original Death Star could, and that therefore if there was even a single world-destroying star destroyer that escaped from the battle, it could threaten multiple worlds. (Besides that, there's the fact that even if the cannons are single use, the aim presumably isn't to destroy that number of worlds but to destroy a much smaller number and frighten the rest of them into submission - unless the aim now is fundamentally different from in the days of the Empire?).
     
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  3. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    It's just a long, rather flashy establishing shot for want of a better description. It gives a few nuggets of information such as the fact there's a spy in the First Order, that Poe now dresses like Brendan Fraser in the Mummy and is "Han Solo Lite" and that Finn's role as usual is to get on the guns and shout "Woooo" whenever he can.

    I do like the lightspeed skip to the location with the white towers though. Very Ralph McQuarrie.
     
    Billy_Dee_Binks likes this.
  4. JohnWilliamsSonoma

    JohnWilliamsSonoma Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2003
    Yes, but we learn about that upon their return to base and when Kylo talks about it at the FO board meeting. For me, the whole thing is just redundant and adds to a chaotic and frenetic opening act. They really needed to finesse that opening ... there's an in-progress fan edit that does a great job of smoothing out Rey's and Kylo's visions and provides some motivation for Kylo to back on the mask. Check these out:



     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  5. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    Part of me wants to say Poe is wrong, and that only a small number of these ships have that kind of power but I'm sure lots of materials indicate he is right. This was a part of the new movie that gave me trouble. However if you grant that one single ship like that can be created, it makes sense that there could be more.

    The Emperor's goal has always been to have the threat of planetary destruction on hand in order to hold the galaxy in thrall. It's natural he would want to use the miniaturized Death Star technology and the Starkiller technology to create multiple planet killing weapons because after all, when you have just one the good guys can focus on blowing it up. On the other hand, there is a question of keeping the loyalty of all those starship captains. It seems a little dicey to give all of them weapons like that. But Palpatine is a wild guy. He really likes to turn up the volume when he can.
     
  6. Zdarlight

    Zdarlight Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Without getting stuck into canon/legends lore, of which there is plenty, and just going by what we see in TROS, I imagine it's being implied that she has unfinished business. Although Leia is a Force-sensitive individual and has been trained, her body doesn't disappear upon death because she's focused upon making sure that her son is redeemed. Once Kylo makes the decision to turn to the light, Leia's body disappears. So, when it comes to Rey, we can assume that she wasn't ready to go, which kept her tied to a corporeal form. Alternatively, she might not have even been dead - just close to death.

    As above, she was waiting for his decisive turn to the Light. She didn't want to let go until she knew her son had turned away from the path he was on. I don't personally think she knew that he'd die, or knew which path he'd take, she was just hanging out waiting to make sure he was going the right way.

    I am going to dig into the lore here. Both canon and Legends lore states that a Jedi can only become a Force ghost and communicate with the living through training - either before or after death - and they have to be a follower of the Light side. It's rare knowledge and Ben hasn't had that training (nor the dedication to the Light) - however, he could still be trained by another Jedi after his death, and make a return in Force Ghost form at a later point.

    Presumably, resurrection works as a transfer of Force energy by the same method as healing, as we saw Rey do with the sand-snake earlier in the film. She's able to transfer a little of her energy to the snake and heal it, but resurrection is obviously a whole different business which takes a lot more out of someone - hence why Ben dies. Neither Force resurrection nor healing have happened in the current Canon, but there was plenty of history of it in the old expanded universe. To me, it seems like the act of resurrection was something that Ben had never tried before - in fact, he'd probably never even considered trying to heal someone or something until Rey did it for him after their fight. I'm guessing it's a power only available to Light side Force-users. It also seemed instinctive, hence why he screwed up and totally drained all of his life energy into Rey.

    For the record, I wasn't happy with the whole resurrection thing and the idea of Ben giving his life for Rey, nor did I want his resurrection to go that way, but it does check out.

    I mean here's a few answers but feel free to ask more questions if you have any!
     
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  7. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    The whole fading away and becoming one with the Force only seems to happen to Light Side users who have been trained how to do it. Qui-Gon is the first one who learns this power, and he then teaches it to Yoda and Obi-Wan. They both then disappear when they die and learn the path to "immortality."

    This is from the ROTS script. It didn't make it in the movie, but it was in the Clone Wars.

    YODA: Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is.

    QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

    YODA: Eternal consciousness.

    QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.


    And then, of course, the actual scene in the movie.

    YODA: (continuing) Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you.

    OBI-WAN: Training?

    YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.

    OBI-WAN: Who?


    YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

    According to Lucas, Obi-Wan and Yoda helped Anakin learn this after he died, which is why we were able to see him. I assume Yoda and Obi-Wan also taught Luke and Luke in turn taught Leia.

    Rey probably does not know this power yet. She couldn't communicate with the Jedi until the very end of TROS, so it's not surprising her body would not fade away upon death. Luke and Leia will have plenty of time to teach her now, though. This also, IMO, explains why Ben wasn't a FG. He wouldn't know how yet. But I think Leia waiting for him is key to him learning this power. She waited so she could go with Ben.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
    MarcJordan likes this.
  8. datatapes

    datatapes Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2016
    Valid points. But not quite what I meant. What he says is "Hit those underbelly cannons. Every one we knock out is a world saved."
    This implies that each cannon will be used to destroy one world and only one world. He seems to be saying that the cannons are single-use - that once fired, a cannon can't be used to destroy a second or third world. If he's not saying that, his comment makes no sense, because instead of 3 ships destroying 3 planets (one each), the resistance could knock out two of the ships, and then the third ship could destroy all 3 planets on its own.
    But it might just be a rhetorical device on his part. Probably is, just always strikes me as a very illogical thing to say.
     
  9. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Great answers and I honestly don't think that too much exposition would be needed for them in the movie. At least something like "the effort would kill you" from TLJ when Kylo was wondering whether Rey was doing Force Projection (that later killed Luke).
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
    Zdarlight likes this.
  10. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    That's an interesting take on tRoS. I see the more direct message in these recut visions. My question is how can Kylo Ren trust the Vader helmet after finding out Palpatine is behind the voices in his head?

    What are we seeing in the theatrical cut? Kylo Ren touches the Vader mask as a way to focus and send Rey a vision? Or does Kylo Ren use the Vader to focus his powers to create a new vision which is also shared with Rey at the same time? Does Kylo know Rey will also see this vision, or is this a side effect of the Dyad?
     
  11. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    This may have been answered already, but how does Kylo know that he and Rey are a Dyad in the Force?
    Did the Oracle tell him? If so, is that deleted scene in the novelization?
     
  12. JohnWilliamsSonoma

    JohnWilliamsSonoma Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2003
    I don’t think anyone tells him. He came to learn it on his own.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Where is C-3PO during the battle Exegol?
     
  14. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Back at the base probably.
     
    MarcJordan likes this.
  15. Trev Elyt

    Trev Elyt Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2019
    This might’ve been answered already, but did we ever get an answer as to what exactly happened with Leia’s body when she died? There really wasn’t a clear explanation as to why it didn’t fade until the moment Ben died. The general consensus, from what I’ve seen, has just been the speculative notion that her soul was waiting for Ben before she became one with the Force, but I haven’t seen anything in canon media to confirm/deny this. I’m also confused as to whether or not we’re supposed to interpret Ben’s memory of Han as a projection through Leia? Like, did she create that memory through the Force and that’s how she died? Or did Han’s memory just coincidentally come to Ben in the moments following his mother’s death?
     
  16. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    There is some precident for this in Star Wars. We didn't see Anakin's body vanish in Return of the Jedi upon death. So when did his body vanish?

    When Luke hands Leia the dice in the Last Jedi and gives her look which she returns, I think he's clueing her in on how to do what she does in The Rise of Skywalker. (Regardless if this is was used after the fact). Holding Han's Yavin Medal somehow is part of Leia projecting Han to Ben.

    Did Leia die because she created the memory or did she have to be dead, one with the Force, but still in the living world to make that happen? And in the end did Leia help take Ben to be one with the Force?
     
    Trev Elyt likes this.
  17. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Kylo's mask really irritates me in these movies. Kylo clearly leaves it on the catwalk in TFA and then it gets blown up. Yet he has it on in TLJ where he smashes it to pieces. But he apparently kept the pieces because he puts it back together in TROS.

    Also, anyone else notice that Rey cuts Ben's lightsaber apart in the duel on Starkiller Base yet he continues to use that same lightsaber for the next two movies.
     
    Darth PJ likes this.
  18. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    She doesn't cut the lightsaber apart, she makes him drop it. I went frame-by-frame to check just that when TFA was released on home media, because I wanted a clue if Kylo would continue wielding it or have a new saber in 8.

    The mask thing is wonky continuity though, for sure.
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  19. Trev Elyt

    Trev Elyt Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2019
    That’s a good point that I didn’t think of until the other day when I was rewatching Return of the Jedi. (And there’s still so much speculation as to how that worked because he appears as a younger version of himself when he eventually does become a Force ghost.)

    I think you bring up a good point with the dice thing, though. When Luke and Leia are reunited in The Last Jedi, Luke sort of gives Leia a look as if to say, “I’m not really here,” and Leia kind of sadly smiles to say, “I know.” I think that scene has sort of an added weight in the context of The Rise of Skywalker, if it’s true that he was also telling her, “This is what you have to do when the time is right.” I haven’t finished reading The Rise of Skywalker novel, but I’ve read bits and pieces and I know that Leia hears Luke throughout the story urging her to project herself to Ben because she’s the only one who can bring him back. I think this would support that, and I like the idea that Leia holding Han’s Yavin medal when she dies is not only a way to pay homage to him in her final moments, but to ensure that she can project his memory to Ben and ultimately push him back to the light.

    I’ve seen a lot of people theorize that this is why they changed the scene where Rey hears the voices of previous Jedi. As we all know, in the trailer, Luke says, “The Force will be with you,” while Leia says, “Always.” In the final cut of the film, Luke says the whole line. A lot of people seem to think that it wouldn’t make sense for her to hear Leia if her spirit is still floating around, making sure that Ben continues on his path back to the light.

    I really like the idea that you brought up about Leia potentially being the reason Ben was able to become one with the Force, too. He obviously either hasn’t become a Force ghost yet or just isn’t there at the end of the film when Rey sees Luke and Leia again, but I really like that sentiment.

    Honestly, I really think the Lucasfilm Story Group should develop a canonical explanation for how Force ghosts and all of that stuff works. I think there have been so many unanswered questions about that concept since it first started being used in the Original Trilogy, and The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker raised even more questions about how that actually works. I’d be curious to know what the definitive reasoning for it is in the context of the Star Wars universe. Thanks for your insight!
     
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    The way Leia's death is shot we never clearly see the Yavin Medal she is holding. I think Maz giving Chewbacca the medal at the end is more than just a call back / gag related to the orignal movie. I think it's meant to be a eureka moment where the audience puts it all together - what was laying holding, how did Han return, etc, etc. Leia was doing things through the Force to help bring about the ending we see.

    Not sure how well the is conveyed in the movie, but I think that's what the filmmakers are trying to say. And over time with repeated viewing, as people are more and more familiar with this trilogy that might be the majority reading of the scenes. We'll see.
     
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  21. Trev Elyt

    Trev Elyt Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2019
    That’s a good point. I wonder if there was originally a longer bit that fleshed this out more. The teaser trailer for The Rise of Skywalker features a shot of Leia holding the Yavin medal that isn’t in the final version of the film, and Chris Terrio confirmed that a number of Leia’s scenes were ultimately cut from the film. But that’s a really interesting take on it — I never thought of it as a sort of “eureka” moment, but it makes sense.

    In my mind, when Maz hands the medal to Chewie, it always felt like that was sort of her saying, “Leia wanted you to have this.” It was not only a callback to the Original Trilogy, but it was a reminder of the friendship shared between the original heroes and another way of sort of reminding the audience of Leia’s presence throughout the film, even if it was only spiritually. I think you’re absolutely right, though, because the more I watch the film, the more I feel like, “Wow, Leia really does feel everywhere in this movie even though she only has about 5 minutes of screentime.” Say what you will about the film, but I love that J.J. and Chris were able to make Leia feel front and center in a film where she’s absent for the majority of it.
     
  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Excellent. I agree that Maz giving the medal to Chewbacca is a fond farewell from Leia to Chewbacca. He's the last of our heroes from A New Hope left at the end of Episode 9 that isn't a droid. And like you said it's callback to friendship shared between the Original Trilogy Heroes. And that's what Chewbacca was a part of that the droids weren't.

    Maz giving the medal to Chewbacca has so many implications. With the fast pacing of the movie it's easy to miss all of that even after a few viewings. I think for sure it's much more than a cheap call back or gag.

    That's right, we do see the medal in the trailer. Do you think a deleted scene would have had Leia holding the medal earlier in the movie? Leia is focused on it deep in thought. It would appear Leia is reflecting on the past. But really she's getting ready for what's next?
     
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  23. Trev Elyt

    Trev Elyt Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Great minds think alike! I definitely got that sense from that scene — I actually got a bit choked up in the theater when Maz handed the medal to Chewie the first time I saw it — and especially after seeing how distraught Chewie was upon hearing of Leia’s passing, I thought it was a really nice farewell between the two characters.

    If I remember correctly, there might be a scene in The Rise of Skywalker novel that includes Leia holding Han’s medal. I know early on in the story, Leia has a conversation with Maz where they discuss her declining health and I feel like the medal might be present in that scene. (I can go back and check if you’re interested.) I know that, in The Force Awakens, there was at least one scene between the two characters in which Maz gives Luke’s lightsaber to Leia. I’m sure that, at one point or another, some version of that scene almost made it into The Rise of Skywalker. I can’t imagine J.J. and Chris would plan on Maz serving as Leia’s adviser in the film if they didn’t have some sort of interaction at one point in the narrative, even if it was ultimately cut. I would imagine any scene with the medal would’ve just been Leia reflecting on the past at that point, but then by the end of the film, we’d realize that it was also foreshadowing her sacrifice. I think that would’ve been cool. To be honest, I’m just really bummed that they had to cut any of Leia’s scenes.
     
  24. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    What happened to Han's dice? They are not in the film, right?
     
    Trev Elyt likes this.
  25. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    What was up with the dice? The dice are in one shot in ANH with Chewbacca, and then never seen again until TLJ. Then TLJ tries to place some significance on them, something to do with Han and Leia. But then SOLO comes out and we are shown that Han gives these dice some other woman, and not Leia.

    I just imagine Luke handing those dice to Leia and Leia thinking, "Oh, does Luke think these hold some significance between Han and I? I better go along with it, don't wanna make this weirder than it already is."