ST Praetorian Guard Discussion

No one is even trying to equate the two. I'm just pointing out that she doesn't just come into these fights as if she's just come out of the womb - she's had to defend herself her entire life. She's one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, so it's really not out of the question that she can hold her own against these guards. It wasn't a bit too much for Luke to land a blow on Darth Vader after he spent a whole 2 weeks (note that the time spent there isn't specified, because it doesn't matter. That's not what's important to the story) with Yoda on Dagobah. Like, heroes being competent warriors is really not a new thing for Star Wars, or movies in general. Not sure how this is even a complaint.

 

Landing a blow on someone who is not trying to kill you isn't that impressive. Especially when that same person has been handing your ass to you on a silver platter for the entire fight and manages to cut off your hand shortly after you hit a glancing blow to his shoulder. Not to mention that Luke landed a blow on an armored part of the suit.

 

I know most are focusing on the actual fight. Choreography, skill levels, etc.

For me it's all eye candy to distract you from the fact that Snoke turned out to be a dumb villain that couldn't see his pupil ever turning on him, and this was just a shock because we've never, ever seen this (cough*just about every movie/cough) play out before.

So Kylo killed the boss without so much as any fight and now you fight the underlings which don't have any force powers. You know there's like zero chance they will win (story-wise), there's no tension, there's also no point. And why did they attack Rey?!, they clearly saw that Kylo was the one that killed him and if they didn't why did they assumed he did?

It's nonsensical, IMHO.

 

Well, considering they're our main characters in this story, I'd say that's pretty much a non-issue. Did you feel that Luke was going to die in TESB? No, because that would be stupid to kill off your protagonist in the 2nd film of a trilogy. The point of the scene was to bring Rey's vision to life, show how effective the two are when working together, and seemingly tighten the bond between the two characters. Because in the next instant - Kylo is going to rip that bond right apart. And that's not a fault of the movie, it's done by design. They both saw visions helping each other, and expected that they would join forces after Snoke had been defeated, but that's not how it turns out. Both of them needed to widen their perspectives, stay grounded, and not believe so much in what they saw.

Don't get it. Why wouldn't they attack Rey..? Snoke just ordered Kylo to kill her. She just caught a deadly weapon and went back to back with Kylo clearly with the intent to attack. I suppose they all should have just completely ignored Rey so that she could just slice up about 3 of them while they went for Kylo? What the what?

It's nonsensical why, because we haven't seen something like this happen before and don't know how it will end? You're completely spot on right here:

Yup. We've seen his type of villain before. Not just in Star Wars but in all fantasy franchises. It's boring. It's played out. It's not relatable. He was old and arrogant, just like Palpatine, and couldn't see his apprentice turning on him. And Kylo flipped that upside down on him like a relatable character with an actual brain. And now, we have no clue what's going to happen - because the formula is broken. Big baddie is taken out in the middle of the trilogy, where do we go from here? People don't see a clear answer and they get upset and angry saying that the story has no point. No, the story has a point, we just haven't gotten to the conclusion yet.

This is why Kylo is such an exciting villain. We literally don't know what is going to happen with him. He could certainly be redeemed, as they've been trying to sell his humanity to us in both TFA in TLJ. Okay, but how will they go about that, especially with the way he ended things in TLJ? Not sure, but it's going to be a pretty wild ride. On the other hand, he might continue his Space Hitler act and remain the villain. We could see Rey continue to try and sway him, prove unsuccessful, and then have to defeat him once and for all. I really don't know. I have no clue. Because this isn't working off a past formula - it's new, and fresh, and exciting.

 

If only they broke the formula in TFA and gone with an original story rather than mildly subverting an existing story, then it might have genuinely been fresh and exciting.

 

Agreed. For sure Kylo put everything we expected upside down. We never saw a Dark Side master being outsmarted by his apprentice.

I as amazed by the huge balls the movie had to just slice Snoke like he was nothing. And how pure evil Kylo was during that whole scene tells us about what type of Dark Side user he is. Manipulative, sneaking, hiding his true feelings.... very interesting.

We also never saw how Sidious killed Plagueis while his master was asleep. And why would Plagueis be so dumb to sleep and do not have security, right? He knew of the Sith rule of two.

Yes, the big bad evil master was already done before. It would be an error to have Snoke still alive. Now we are in uncharted territory. Exciting.

 

Gods forbid our heroes show competence and have a little plot armour in Star Wars. That Rey ultimately emerges victorious doesn't devalue the Praetorian Guard.

 

This. This is why I thought that whole scene was stupid. I see people calling it the best action scene in all of SW. Gotta be kidding, right? Sorry, eye candy will never be more important than a well-written scene to me, and this one is just dumb.

 

Of course we are not kidding. Compared to all other previous films, it was easily the best fight scene involving several characters.

Of course we all knew Kylo and Rey would win the fight. It is a trilogy, of course we know it. We even had seen the trailers with the Crait sequence which was not yet shown by then in the movie.

The point was to enjoy Rey and Kylo working together. Seeing Kylo outsmarting Snoke. Being surprised by Snoke being killed like that.

Let's be honest, JJ created Snoke, and it was a BAD idea. It was too similar to the OT Palpatine, the big bad master working from the shadows. Blablabla.

The best thing TLJ could have done was to kill Snoke. Bonus points for being one of the most exciting and unexpected scenes of a saga with many great scenes.

On the preview night, the audience on my theater was cheering and clapping like crazy when that happened and Rey grabs the saber.

I still have nerdgasms even by thinking about that scene. And in a few days I will watch it again on Blu Ray.

 

Opinions, opinions. Cool scene? Yeah. Tension-filled, edge-of-my-seat intrigue? Not for me. Plus, why do the guards attack Kylo? Sure he killed Snoke, but if they defeat Kylo and Rey, what are they going to do? Who are they going to serve? Their objective was to serve the Supreme Leader. I guess you can say they were so loyal to Snoke that their first instinct, even after Snoke is dead and it's too late, is to kill whoever killed him. But just think if they would've won the fight, then they have no one to serve. lol

 

If the guards won the fight, then they would serve Hux, given the hierarchy.

But maybe Snoke has a hidden student. Or, big twist, a hidden master !

 

Well, there haven't been that many in the first place, so the competition isn't exactly tough.

 

Can I have some of the Kool-Aid?

 

Sorry for the double post. Just went back and re-watched the whole fight again...
At the start of the fight
- Rey faces 4 guards, Kylo 3 (4th guard presumably is off-frame or otherwise not engaging yet)
- Rey kills off 1 of Kylo's opponent right away while continuing to dispatch her 4. So she's engaged with 4 while Kylo is only fighting 2 at this point.
- Battle continues, at some point Kylo is still fighting his 3 left over guards (Rey is the only one that has killed any guards at this point of the fight). For some reason 1 guard is still not engaged?
- Kylo kills off 2, while Rey has been down to 1 already (she killed 3 vs. Kylo's 2). At this point the fight doesn't make sense as guards are dropping like flies against Rey yet the guards decide to go to Kylo. And finally Kylo manages to dispatch his third guard.
- Both Rey and Kylo are being held by their respective guard (last one). Interesting to point out that Kylo has managed to lose his LS in the battle while Rey still has "hers".
- Rey dispatches the last guard on her own
- Rey throws HER LS to Kylo and he's finally able to dispatch the last guard.
- At the end each kills 4, but after watching it several times you have to conclude that Rey fares a lot better in this fight compared to Kylo.

Am I missing something here?, are people remembering the fight differently?

PS: I wanted to post screen caps but I think they're not allowed, must wait until the movie is out

 

man if only he had some way to get the lightsaber that is like 1m away from him, pull it somehow...
seriously by far the stupidest moment of the fight

anyway I think rey kill 3 (stab in mass melee, then the two, she slashes one at some point but I think this one survives and is the one that she killed last)
but Kylo also kills 4, so one is kinda MIA, unless the one slashed by rey is dead, but the final one she kills has the same armor and weapon as the slashed one so meh, maybe I missed a kill by Kylo somewhere

 

He had a guard a few inches from him swinging a blade to his face. He had ZERO time to pull back his lightsaber.

 

Which just seems to portray Rey as being the more skilled fighter in this fight. She has to save Kylo twice. First by killing one of his opponents and second by giving him her LS after she already took care of her 4 combatants.

Poor Kylo, if he wasn't such a brat-emo-man-child-father-murderer I'd almost feel bad for him that a nobody (his words), is a more skilled fighter and has greater "knowledge" of the Force.

 

I've watched the fight sequence several times and did perceive Kylo as more skilled. For instance, while Kylo takes on like three people at once who surround him, Rey is taking on one at a time at the end. Earlier Kylo had tossed one of the people ganging up on him in Rey's direction. I think he was considering this again but he saw Rey was struggling with her current combatant and that he was on his own. And he almost got them all, but his lightsaber got caught in the armor of the second one he killed and so he was unable to get it back before the third went at him.

Kylo's moves often seem a bit more complex whereas Rey does a bit of wild swinging.

 

Yeah, Kylo's lightsaber choreography seemed to have elegant, yet violent strategy involved with it while Rey's seemed to highlight inexperience during specific points of the fight. She also pulls off some pretty sweet moves during the fight, including the one where she drops the saber into her other hand, but I think it's clear that Kylo had the superior lightsaber skills.

Man, this scene is absolutely beautiful. I remember I'd watch TFA during the snow duel scene and wonder how a fight scene could get anymore artistically beautiful... and then the throne room scene happened.

 

Yes I got the feeling that Rey is improvising sometimes in the fight. She's good at improvising but it definitely looks different to me than an impression of someone with great experience with the lightsaber.

I'm hoping the fight(s) in IX will be even longer and more beautiful.

 

I think improvising is a great way to put it. She knows how to fight and, because of that, has great instincts during fights, but she lacks the grace that Kylo has when handling a lightsaber.

I can't even begin to imagine what the fights are going to look like in IX, but I'm definitely with you, lol.

 

If the KOR are in IX there's even more potential for a lot of great fights.

 

I didn't see Rey improvising. If a hero is improvising in a fight and barely staying upright, I expect them to look frightened and stressed out, like they don't know what to expect. The more supposedly badass PG flashes his weapon at Rey for a showdown, and she responds with a cocky saber twirl and a scream. Rey never looks nervous. She fights with the confidence of an old pro. Rey never acts like she thinks she's going to lose, so why should the audience think she might?

 

@AhsokaSolo I wonder if your impression would change if you watched the scene more? Mine changed. Especially after watching the digital version because then I could replay it. Normally things happen too fast in fight scenes for me and I can't fully follow everything.

 

@oncafar ~ Edit oops, I thought this was the other conversation

No I just rewatched it. I had actually forgotten about Rey's saber twirl. I remember it annoying me the first time, and when I saw it just now I had that, "oh yeah, *groan" kind of reaction.