ST Princess/General Leia Organa/Carrie Fisher Discussion Thread

HevyDevy,, has to me the above example you used seem to me one of the basic principles of a dramatic arc. Not that I don’t think the sequel trilogy is pretty jumbled overall, but the Leia arc with her son I’m fine with.

Part One. Has hope for her son.
Part Two. The hope has seemingly died and is at its lowest, but Luke provides a flicker/reminder.
Part Three. She finds the strength to remember what she felt in part one.

If anyone has read the original script, Leia reaches out to him similarly, but does not succumb from it. And ends the film how I always thought she would, with R2 and 3PO gazing out at the galaxy. It seems more in keeping with the essence of the character, and most likely was only really changed because of Fisher’s untimely passing.

 

Good point.
That makes sense, I was kind of just thinking out loud.

 

What original script? Great ending, Leia alone with the droids. I do hope JJ and RJ enjoyed murdering Luke and Han and leaving Leia alone. Being such lovers of the characters as they claim to be.

 

The Derek Connolly and Trevorrow script from December 2016.

 

I don't feel that the actions Luke or Leia took killed them - both made a conscience decision to become one with the Force, just as they once witnessed Kenobi do the same. As Rey described Luke's transition, "It wasn't sadness or pain - it was peace and purpose", I believe the same to be true for Leia. Their actions helped the Resistance survive and gave them hope. Leia turned the tide, and the Emperor knew it. I don't believe Han was a memory - Ben was interacting with him, so I feel Leia was able to manifest his father as a final act of compassion that would fully turn him to the light.

 

How is becoming one with the Force not killing them again? Both at 53? Kenobi died so they could escape and that saved the galaxy. Then they managed to screw that up so that Rey has to do it again.

They died so Han's murderer could "turn to the light" - that is a horrible, miserable end for all three of them. I don't find Han, Luke and Leia's lives destroyed and them all killed so that Kylo finally wises up any kind of good ending. They all died "saving" a miserable waste who was responsible for Maker knows how many deaths, how much destruction. Leia didn't die to save the Resistance, they made her die to save Kylo - the same person who murdered Han, destroyed everything she fought for, and was responsible for Luke's death. That is the opposite of hope.

 

Saving Ben, ended up saving the galaxy.

Luke and Leia, as Force Ghosts, get to see that what Leia did, resulted in a redeemed Ben, and, far more importantly, an overthrown First Order.

Without Ben, Rey would have participated in Palpatine's essence-transferring ritual - that's the point of Ben turning up in the first place - to bring Rey out of her state of despair.

That's why Luke and Leia look so happy in the final sequence of the movie.

 

Ben, Ben, Ben, keep in mind Ben isn't the only character but he is the last true Skywalker. Me thinks the reason people have trouble with this part of the story is that it shouldn't be about helping Ben, rather Ben taking care of himself in accordance with being a good guy. I guess we all have a different level of acceptance for that?

 

PendragonM, I totally get your frustration. But I don’t want to put words in your mouth (or in this case type words on a page)
I am only invested in the SW universe based on the chemistry between Fisher, Hamilton and Ford, so that’s all I’m really paying attention to (and how good the supporting characters and elements around them are).
We were in a tricky situation as soon as a sequel trilogy presented itself, since there really isn’t a need for it. I feel there isn’t a need for a prequel trilogy either. The numbering of SW being 4,5,6 to me was more of a way of giving our imagination that there was an ongoing Flash Gordon serial vibe to it. The story really only works because of the triangle dynamics of Leia, Luke and Han. It’s a personal story for each of them. You could put the three of them in a factory in Ohio and it woukd still be interesting... the constant use of Death Star oval lights and pew-pew lasers are just set dressing. To make anything work it has to be the success of the creation of the core characters... and SW initially did that.
But to continue on in a sequel trilogy and bringing them back (which you need to) you basically have to reset and somehow raise the stakes. And yet at the same time not change their essence or tarnish their legendary cinematic status. And it can’t just be a superficial Big Bad they’re fighting, it has to be personal, or the new trilogy just feels like an epilogue. Pretty tricky. So I am totally on board with the route/idea of Kylo REN. I am totally on board with Han and Leia starting out estranged, and Luke a seemingly destroyed version of his former self. I think it’s a great starting point to kick this off- our core triangle is fractured all from a personal connection in that Ren character and have something to work at to get it back together.
However, with the passing of the torch to a new generation, the core triangle gets caught in a jumbled mess. The planning of the whole thing is a schizophrenic mess of whiplash and kitchen sinks.

 

Here's where we completely disagree. No they don't have to start out in misery, with them estranged or any of the things that happened in the ST, including Kylo. I think it's garbage. I think everything done to them is a tarnishing or destruction of their legacy and it was to absolutely zero effect. Rey steals Luke's legacy, Han and Leia's only legacy now was to sire the villain - that's it. Plus, you say you love Hamill, Ford and Fisher's dynamic - not only did we never get them together, I don't know who the hell those characters were, but I'm sorry, that's not Luke, Han and Leia. Those are some aliens they made the three actors play (and the actors can say what they want. Mark himself said that was Jake).

There was no reason to destroy them. Why fans keep going on about this as if it was a good thing or wanted or dramatic or anything other than a destruction of the characters that made Star Wars what it is to try and build up some cheap copies of those characters remains an absolute mystery to me. That JJ or Johnson can call themselves Star Wars fans with a straight face is, quite frankly, disgusting to me.

That we agree on. Whatever they were trying for with this unwanted and unneeded destruction of the core trio was to no effect in the end. I hope they're all happy with never reuniting Luke, Han and Leia before Carrie died. I would hope JJ feels guilty about it but I very much doubt he does. He's no more a Star Wars fan than he was a Trek fan - at least he admitted he didn't like Star Trek before he helped trash it.

 

Okay, they maybe they don’t start out in misery... but they better get in personal misery, conflict soon. Otherwise it’s just an epilogue. (Or the 1978 Christmas Special) They need a personal obstacle if they’re going to continue the story. Otherwise they’re just fancy set dressing, cameos akin to always throwing in those oval Death Star lights anywhere to say, “see, this is Star Wars!”
I think you’re taking umbrage with how sloppily it was handled, right?

 

Luke and Anakin already saved the galaxy from Palps. Ben going on a galactic killing spree for 2.5 movies including impaling dad and attempting to impale uncle--because he's angry and misunderstood. Now he saves the galaxy due to Leia's whisper? To me that's pretty weak, wish they just stuck with RotJ.

I don't know how they'd string it along, but a Kylo Ren who suspected/felt Palps still around decided to embrace the darkside in order to get close enough to finish what granddad started would have made more sense to me. Not optimal, but double agent Kylo may have garnered more sympathy from fans.

 

Sloppily handled is a problem all its own.

Again, why do these movies have to destroy not only what Luke, Han and Leia did but who they are? Wouldn't you have preferred to see them fight together to stop whatever the new big bad was? Preferably with decent kids? Instead of their lives and works and everything they were ripped from them by their only child who is happy to join an organization that blew up five planets? I mean, you're a fan of Hamill, Ford and Fisher together as those characters and you're happy with what we got in the ST with regards to them? No, sorry, I don't understand it in the least.

 

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m not lobbying them to be destroyed. I’m saying if a sequel happens after happily ever after, you need to make new conflict that is not superficial. Superficial here is the galactic empire, which it is in the original trilogy... not that it isn’t important, but it’s second to the character’s personal journey, inner conflict.

So say you and I are given the job to develop the sequel trilogy from square one... I imagine we would have to say okay, what are Luke, Han and Leia struggling with. If it’s just fight the Big Bads, it’s just kinda a reunion special that’s going through the paces. We would need to raise the stakes for them, to give them something to work towards. Basic tenants of drama. I think you’re feeling I’m happy with the turn out. I’m not. I’m saying the initial setup, not bad. It makes me on the edge of my seat to want to see my three loved ones get it together. What happened after that setup, no.

 

I just realized that at the end of The Force Awakens, Leia is "Mom Solo."

 

If I can provide a bit of insight into the whole Leia/Ben debate, it’s worth noting that Kylo Ren was the Supreme Leader of the First Order. He had a dangerous amount of power and was well on his way to destroying the First Order. Rey was the last Jedi, and in the moment that Kylo was about to destroy her, Leia intervened because she knew she was the last chance anyone had of stopping him from killing the last Jedi, thus leaving the Resistance vulnerable and susceptible to an imminent defeat. Leia sacrificing herself ultimately prevented Kylo from carrying out Palpatine’s plan, so whether it was ideal or not, she ultimately died in the most selfless way possible, and to be honest, it was very true to who she was as a character — her death did ultimately save the Resistance.

I understand the frustrations with her death, but honestly, as someone who walked into this film more concerned with how they were going to handle Leia’s arc more than anything else, I was entirely satisfied with what was done. Yeah, it was heartbreaking to see Leia die — even if it was somewhat expected — but I think she went out in the best way she could’ve gone. She did it on her own terms, and her final act was ultimately what saved the cause she’d spent her entire life fighting for. I don’t think of Leia’s death as a way of disrespecting her for the sake of redeeming Ben. I think of it as finding a way to ensure Leia was, as much as possible, the one to save the day and be the hero. If Leia had to die, I personally am glad that it was done in a way that allowed her to die a hero, much like Luke did.

 

You have a good point!

Anyway, I have a question: what is Leia's standing with Lando? I mean, she obviously likes him enough to trust him joining the Resistance. Did she like him as a friend or just as a person?

 

I think after the rescue of Han Solo and the Battle of Endor, Leia's opinion of Lando would be very high indeed. To the question of whether they are personal friends, I would say "of course." Apparently he continued to work with the original heroes after the Republic was restored, since he tried to help Luke find Ochi and the wayfinder.

 

Lando is part of the group of the good guys. It’s all movie short hand. Just like Han and Leia in Force Awakens, even if they bicker, they’re all still connected and fine at the end of each film. Empire Strikes Back brings him into the fold with the Big Six by the movie’s end, and I think we’re meant to feel Leia has gotten over her mistrust of Lando while they’re fleeing on Bespin.
There is a beautiful scene in the original script for Episode Nine where Leia goes undercover to recruit Lando... it would’ve been gold to see Williams and Fisher play it. Sigh.

 

Wait...now they're saying Leia was also frozen in corbonite?



Good lord this is bad.

 

Hope this isn't an example of what is coming next in SW.

 

It's exactly right in line with much of what we've seen in line with the franchise, particularly the Disney era. "Hey remember that thing that happened once before? Here it is again!"

 

Apperently Leia could still hear the voices of Obi and Yoda after her jedi trainning with Luke. Wonder what they would tell her or guide her to.

 

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but the Leia scenes really hurt TROS. They feel really out of place, and do no mesh well at all. Rey goes through this unnecessary training and ends up saying absolutely ridiculous things like having to earn Luke's saber (worst line in SW history IMO). I feel like they tried to make a movie around these scenes, and in return it hurt.

I hate thinking this way, cause I really have no idea what they could have done. But what they did, did not work at all for me. I was thrown way out of place by them, especially in my first viewing. They just didn't work well, and everyone felt really out of character in them.

 

Can someone please tell me how Leia knows what Obi Wan or Yoda sounds like? Did they introduce themselves? I guess they were helping her and not bothering to help Luke teach. So why didn’t they tell her how to stop Palpatine doing whatever to Ben? Do any of these creatives think these things through?