Senate Problems with perceptions of masculinity

Maybe I've just worked with a bunch of female kickarses for the entirety of my working life, but I've never had that whole "woman is afraid to say what she means" point. Ever.

Then again, I'm public sector, regional government, likely is an environmental difference at work, but only so far.

 

(This post will contain generalisations )

it's true - men don't talk about their feelings enough , whereas women talk about them too much (in fact good luck getting them to shut up)
Guys talk in different ways , they like to bond by talking about other things , work , sport , children's sci-fi films , and occasionaly within that chat a bit of personal stuff .
My mate will sometimes mention something happening in his family and all I really have to do is listen and remember to ask him about it next time we meet .

I mean really we just wanna know that people care , like anyone would . But if you say to guys "hey let's talk about our feelings " well watch them shrivel up .
There's a great scene in Gran Torino where Eastwood takes the boy to a hardware store reluctantly (he pretends) to buy him some tools , I mean its all there without that awful blatant act of saying things out loud .


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I see nothing wrong with expressing care and concern through deed rather than words. If anything, actions speak louder. The only issue is that words can sometimes be more efficient. FWIW, I'm part of a couple of support organizations for trans guys, in which we have meetings where we talk about or lives. People usually couch things in terms of asking for practical advice, and then end up expressing more emotional content once it's established that others are sympathetic and not going to **** on them. It's not as openly emotional as groups of cis women might be, and people's responses tend to be more solution-based rather than straight-up validation, but it seems to work. One of the critical things is that we're able to trade information about what works for us and what doesn't, which allows us to learn about ways to cope that we might not have thought of. It's also really important for guys who have no family support to have at least one space where people listen to them sympathetically and without judging. The world is really not kind to anyone, and less so to trans people, and it really sucks having to go it alone. The suicide rate for trans people is something like 9 times higher than the national average, and isolation is part of that.

I'm not completely sure how portable this model would be for cis men, since all of us were socialized female, and are therefore coming from a different set of experiences. Also, attendance is completely voluntary, so people who aren't comfortable with group support sessions don't show up to offer their opinions. Still, I think something like this would be really helpful to a lot of guys. If nothing else, it presents a platform where men can bring up their troubles with women without triggering a "You're sexist" "No I'm not" debate. Not that we sit around and bash women. It's more like, "I'm having trouble with my girlfriend (mother, sister, what have you), and X is driving me crazy." The original trans male support group in the area was actually started to give trans men a place to talk about their views of the world without stepping on the toes of trans women. Apparently, some mixed-gender support groups were devolving into battles of the sexes, with men and women vying to place their experience in the spotlight. Not that mixed-gender groups should be abandoned--more like supplemented.

How do things work in your Knights of the 21st Century groups, @Sarge? Are guys able to get over their wariness of one another and act as supports? If so, how does that work out?

 

He was a carpenter 2000 years before power tools. I wouldn't want to arm wrestle Him.

@poor yorick
How do things work in your Knights of the 21st Century groups, @Sarge? Are guys able to get over their wariness of one another and act as supports? If so, how does that work out?

I've never been in any of the groups, so I can't give you a personal answer, I just get the daily messages. But from all that I've read, that is the goal for the groups, and apparently it does work for at least some of them. I would imagine that, like any other organizations, there is a wide variety of differences, some successful, some not, among the different chapters.

 

Here's a perception problem with masculinity.

Some years back, can't recall when or where - which I'm starting to wonder is a problem because it happens quite a bit - but my Dad had it in his head that I should have been far better at verbal confrontations than I was, that it was disappointing I didn't do this or that. This is despite all my experiences to that point in time, including being bullied, adding up to excellent reason to avoid them. Never mind that I also didn't have the tools for it either, people do have to be taught and encouraged to stand up for themselves - why would I do something I was so unsuited for with someone far better at the same things? My parents are better than I am at verbal conflicts and verbal fighting but neither have noticed, even now, that I'm not - there's a lot of truth to the idea that people only ever see other people as reflections of themselves.

It's made for a strange relationship. It seemed to be fine when I was younger, as soon as I was older, mid 20s it all changed. You can't change people and you can't change the past so what does that leave? Not much. Do I try to keep things on a even keel? Yeah, topics are picked carefully, conversations are steered. Honesty? It has rarely ever been the best policy. I've realised over the last few years that I'm not my parents and it's OK. From what I can tell, having seen it play out over three families, there's always going to be that big box marked "do not open". Kind of sad, but seems to be the way of it.

For all that the idea of safe spaces gets derided, the concept does sound quite appealing - could probably do with that on occasion.

 

Interesting posts from everyone.

I really wish there was a tribalistic unit for young men, so they had a benevolent, life-affirming alternative to street gangs and the military. Imagine a sweeping infrastructure plan, similar to the alphabet New Deal organizations, that recruited youth for rebuilding America and vocational training.

How do you makes boys' lives better? Give them fellowship and a purpose.

 

Another interesting NPR broadcast related to this topic:

https://the1a.org/shows/2018-07-05/former-seal-jocko-willink-warrior-kid

I was multi-tasking when I listened to the show, so I know I missed some details, but I believe the author also talked of applying his principles to raising daughters as well (he himself has daughters). However, while this isn't solely masculinity-focused, it still seemed potentially relevant.

 

^ Listening right now. Jocko sounds like the real deal.

 

That's interesting, @Pensivia! I'll have to check that out. ANd @grd4, I agree with you. Starting with boys and very young men might be the way to go, for a variety of reasons. Nobody expects young guys to have life all figured out, so kids might find it less threatening and humiliating to seek guidance from a group. Perhaps for this reason, the trans guy groups I'm a part of skew very young, like from 15-30. At 45, I'm a total outlier. I do know older guys, but they're all, "Meh, I don't want to be a part of that." I don't know the exact reasons, but that's how it shakes out.

I haven't really studied incels and Reddit misogynists, but it seems to me like what a lot of them are saying is, "Pay attention to me! Listen to me! I feel isolated and out of place. People get concerned for women when they feel alone, but people just tell me to suck it up and stop being a *****. It's not fair!" I obviously don't think that hating women is the answer, but I think they have a point about the fairness thing. Guys need a space where they can be centered as guys, and not get kicked when they're down. If prosocial groups are not an option, they'll find antisocial ones. What I'm hearing is that such prosocial groups exist, but they're kind of few and far between. I wish it wasn't sort of controversial to assert that there should be spaces just for masculine-identified people. Nobody wants to steal opportunities and inclusion from feminine-identified folks (or non-binary people, for that matter). It's just if you want toxic masculinity to go away, some of that work has to be done by men, for men.

 

I'd be interested to know what stands out to you from the program in relation to this thread topic. It's been a while since I listened to the show and I don't remember a lot of details from it.

 

I think this is where this competitive perception comes in, that it has to be either-or, when it shouldn't be.

EDIT: Just stumbled on this, pretty cool:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-44124746

The men saving lives in Middlesbrough by 'talking nonsense'

By Sian Davies BBC News, 1 June 2018

Middlesbrough has the highest suicide rate in England, at almost double the national average. Almost three quarters of those who take their own lives in the town are men. Charity Men Tell Health is trying to combat these statistics through conversation and coffee.

 

I don't know much about Navy Seals, but I totally understood and agreed with his thoughts about what it's like to go to war, and what it's like afterwards. That's what stuck out to me most because I could identify with it.

Also, his thoughts about not needing to fight with people when you know you have the capability of fighting effectively; I felt the same way when I started practicing martial arts. Instead of feeling defensive/competitive toward other people in confrontations, now I can just stay calm and relaxed because I know I don't have to prove anything to anyone else; I've already proven myself to me, and that makes it easy for me to not get wound up about proving myself to others.

Oh, and I just remembered when he was talking about leadership and not giving orders, that's totally true. The most productive and effective units I was in, we hardly ever had lots of orders given. The people who knew what's going on let everyone know what needs to be done, and we made sure it got done. When everyone understands the goal and their own function on the team, that's the best way to operate.

 

I just checked it out and it's pretty good parenting/management advice. Basically a motivational speaker with a militaristic/strategic jargon.
There's an interesting moment when the interviewer opens up and says that some people on the show were hesitant of inviting Jocko, because of his masculine verbiage. He reacted pretty charmingly, he said something to the effect of "yeah, even the way I look gets criticized that way



... but you have to look beyond what you think it is I stand for and once you do that, you'll notice there's more to it."

I guess he's right, and as such, I don't think this relates directly to the topic at hand because it's not actually about the toxic elements of "traditional" masculinity. It's not even really about masculinity. He just uses army words.

 

Yeah, I probably should have made sure I remembered it a little better before posting it here (when I went to look the page up to post the link, part of the description seemed to connect it more to masculinity specifically). But at least maybe Sarge (and possibly you too) found it generally interesting

 

Maybe it's not directly about masculinity, but I got the feeling Jocko is a decent example of positive masculinity. I'm sure there are worse role models. Much worse.

 

I thought the guy had some generally solid parenting advice, particularly about how kids are more stable and confident when they know how to handle themselves in a situation where there's conflict. I'd expand on the idea of teaching kids martial arts skills and also teach them coping and communication skills, so they know what to do when things go south. It's also good practice to tell kids why they're supposed to do what you want them to do. In my experience, they will sometimes ignore you anyway, but you get a higher compliance rate than if you just say, "because I said so."

The idea of having a kid write his own warrior code is cool. I can see that working with more aggressive kids who think army-guy stuff is awesome.

And yeah, @Sarge, Jocko seems to be a pretty well-balanced person, and he has impeccable "guy stuff" credentials. I think it's important that he's someone who knows who he is, knows what he wants, and has high confidence in his ability to get it. People who can't sort out what they want to achieve and/or how they're going to make their dreams happen tend to be ineffectual, and that often makes them frustrated and angry. Being ineffectual, frustrated, and angry won't definitionally turn someone into a misogynist, but most misogynists seem to have one or more of those qualities. Jocko doesn't really talk about having an internal locus of control specifically, but it's implied in the things he says. People who own their own successes and failures are less likely to blame others and lash out at them, which is one of the worst symptoms of toxic masculinity.

I think I'm going to add "taking responsibility for self" to "get involved with a constructive community" as two things that could go into a 21st century positive masculinity toolbox.

 

A guide to proper masculine behavior, courtesy of US Navy Bureau of Personnel, 1944.



And a modern woman's reinterpretation of the images:

1. If you are taller, try to bend a little to be less intimidating.
2. Offer to carry his books if he looks tired.
3. Walk forward and show him the way. Men never ask for directions.
4. If he won’t walk fast enough call a friend to hurry him along. Men do lag.
5. Don’t giggle if two men are breaking up in the elevator.
6. Never tell a couple who has the most obvious bald spot even if they ask.
7.If a man is hiding behind a table he probably has an erection. Don’t try to get him to embarrass himself by making him step forward, tempting as it seems.
8. Don’t try to steal blind men for your own purposes. They have their own things to attend to and are not there for your convenience.

 

I think when you try to tie masculinity to chivalry is when you get into issues.

"I don't need a man to hold a door open for me." is thankfully something that I've never experienced. I hold the door open for men and women just to be a courteous individual.

As for other behavior that would be considered masculine: fishing, hunting, camping, and other outdoor related actives - I say, no thanks!

I will pump my wife's gas and I get mad when I see a woman doing it and a man sitting in a car. I don't think she's isn't capable; I just think he should be doing it. Is that bad? Should I shut that part of my brain off?

 

Yeah, I wouldn't bother getting mad at trivial things other people do. There are plenty of truly *****y things happening in the world to save your anger for. But that's just general advice that applies to everyone.

 

I'm not saying I get angry like I want to punch something, but it just bothers me, yet it feels like society is telling me to not let it bother me or I'm wrong that it bothers me.

 

If you want to spend emotional capital on it that's certainly your business. I'm curious though--why does it bother you? It strikes me as a very trivial thing, on par with whether someone likes coffee or tea. I take it you don't agree?

 

I believe in chivalry which is why I always take command of the remote control .