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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Problems with perceptions of masculinity

Discussion in 'Community' started by poor yorick, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    But the simplest way to handle all this, including in relationships, is not to assume/ stereotype, but simply communicate. Figure out if they actually like being a handy man, or watching sports, or cooking, or knitting, or whatever. It’s not a great idea to just assume based on stereotypes and proceed accordingly without further investigation. Once you know the person well enough, and know what makes them feel valued, you try to support that. Unless, of course, they enjoy killing puppies.
     
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I will now take bets on how long this is going to continue without anybody giving an actual example.
     
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  3. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Example of….
     
  4. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    All cats are philosophers.
     
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  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Okay. This discussion has been odd. But to try and do this briefly, I think I can finally say that: 1) I don’t know that I have a big objection to what CT Numbers describes but 2) I think he used poor terminology to do so initially.

    Mostly, he’s discussing awareness of social norms. We all have that, and it’s very important to be able to interact with them. However, I’d argue that it often leads to the opposite outcome of using stereotypes. Here’s two examples of my point.

    A. An Asian student is failing math. There is a stereotype that says all Asians are good at math. If I believed it, I would have to assume this kid is just being lazy, so I’m less inclined to help him. On the other hand, if I engaged with the cultural norm around many people expecting Asian children to be good at math, I might ask whether this situation was bringing any additional stress on him (eg was he facing backlash or judgment for failing to meet people’s unfair expectations).

    B. A man is being very soft spoken. A stereotype says men are supposed to be strong and assertive, so that means I should view this as evidence he is just weak, defective, or feminine. On the other hand, if I’m conscious of how our culture portrays manhood or gender relations, I might realize that, like CT said, it’s possible he’s restraining himself so as not to make others uncomfortable, since typically assertive behaviors can also be read unintentionally as aggressive in men.

    I want to be aware of broader social conceptions might influence people’s perception, including self-perception. I don’t want to “use stereotypes.” To me, being a black man has a certain meaning, and comes with certain duties. Part of this is lifted from the cultural milieu, and part of it is in reaction to it. Similarly, a woman might feel that cooking a good meal is a way to live up to her personal idea of femininity, but that cultural engagement is very different than her endorsing the stereotype that “a woman’s place is in the kitchen.”

    I think we should be able to distinguish these concepts.
     
  6. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    It's a trap. By not wanting to use stereotypes, you are engaging with stereotypes. You are, perhaps, stereotyping the Asian student just by asking. You might be annoying him, patronizing him, just by asking. We've seen people say this a lot. Not only do people have to deal with stereotypes, they have to deal with people making a fuss to avoid stereotypes. This is why it can sometimes be better to say nothing at all, and yet, if one is not aware of these things, if one wills themselves to ignore them, one can also do damage by failing to be sensitive. Sometimes it's a better bet to try to figure these things out without asking. You may offend just by asking.

    When I am sensitive towards a woman's cooking, because I am aware that this might be important to her as a woman, you might say that I am stereotyping her interests. In fact, if I mention this at all, if I just talk to her, she might be put off by this, and that could sour the relationship. I have to be very careful. There are landmines on both sides.

    We've seen black people on this board mention that they find it slightly off putting when white people are sensitive to the fact that they are black. They feel like their race is being put first, like assumptions that they require sensitivity are being made, and in a way, this comes off as another form of racism.

    There is potential for damned if you do, damned if you don't.
     
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  7. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    How do you mean? I'm not "asking" the Asian student anything. Only the stereotype demands that I should behave differently. Nor, in the case of the woman, am I asking you to really say anything in particular to a woman. When we talk about self-concept, there are two issues: what we value, and why we value it. Even when a stereotype can correctly predict a topic that a person might value, it is often extremely wrong about why they value it. In fact, though, the latter is the far more important factor in understanding and interacting with your partner on an ongoing basis.

    I do agree that human are no robots. There's no guaranteed procedure for causing zero offense at any time. But that's not necessary. We are, ultimately, human beings in community and relationship with one another. Most people, when they see there is effort being made (especially longitudinally) do not hold grudges and are willing to forgive small offenses. Trying to operate in that spirit is much more productive than fixating on the fact that you cannot 100% perfectly satisfy someone, as they could equally criticize the same thing in our own behavior.
     
  8. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Three stereotypes about women viz. men: physically weaker, socially less assertive, intellectually more mature.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  9. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Right. To use a pretty clear example, racism exists. And pretending it doesn’t can be pretty damaging. So you have to engage with the reality of racism in order to deal with it.

    But I don’t think anyone here is saying one should pretend stereotypes don’t exist. I think people are simply saying that we should be careful to not let stereotypes actually shape our own perceptions of a person, even if we are aware of (and acknowledge the existence of) the stereotype.

    In other words: Racism exists, but don’t be racist.
     
  10. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    In the situation with the Asian kid who is bad at math—stereotyping would mean, as Wocky said, the possibility of assuming that the kid is just being lazy, whereas not stereotyping, and recognizing that they’re just a kid who is bad at math who happens to be Asian, would then allow for giving the kid the supports they need—just as we would for any other kid who is bad at math.

    There is also harm done in assuming that a soft-spoken or sensitive man is “weak,” as opposed to just allowing him to be who he is, just as we would for a woman who is soft-spoken or sensitive. Same with assuming that an angry woman is “hormonal” or “hysterical” rather than the possibility that she is justifiably angry.

    Some people fit the gender stereotypes and some people prefer to date those who fit the gender stereotypes, and that’s fine. But it is also fine not to do so. And the societal expectations that several have mentioned, can lead to harm for those who do not conform. Or harm for those who try to conform, such as a sensitive man who feels like he has to be tougher.

    On what @Bor Mullet said about having conversations—if a woman is talking about what she wants to cook this weekend or a man is talking about football, it is not playing into stereotypes to ask the woman her favorite dish to cook or the man his favorite team. Where the stereotype comes in would be, if a woman is talking about her favorite sports team and someone asks “So what do you like to cook for your partner?” Or if a man is talking about watching the Food Network or getting a cookbook and trying a new dish and gets asked “So who is your favorite NBA player?”

    I haven’t really done the random meet-ups just to be meeting up, I have almost always met people in a place where people have something in common and that gives us something to talk about, but it does seem like there could be some non-stereotyping conversation starters.
     
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  11. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2018
    But you’re assuming that because we play into them or utilize them that we are trying to harm people. I’ll speak for myself when I say: I don’t care.

    I believe that men should be hardened, fit, mentally tough, emotionally intelligent, and aggressive. That’s a stereotype that I lean into. If I meet a guy that doesn’t fit that, I don’t care. He doesn’t have to meet my standard of what I define as masculine or male behavior because: it’s about what works for him.

    I work with a lot of guys who I’m more dominant over and aggressive towards. We joke about it, but we don’t criticize the men for not conforming to our individual standards because, amongst men, we know that we need room to be different.

    All this talk about causing harm and pressuring people to conform; that’s not what I’m about nor do I think my actions cause that just because I play into traditional roles or stereotypical masculine traits. If I do offend, I apologize, don’t do it again to that particular person, and move on. I don’t need to have some deep faux-intellectual come-to-Jesus moment about the ramifications of my actions on the mentality of random men and women. They shouldn’t care what I think and I don’t care what they think as long as we can live together cordially and amicably.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If you aren’t of the mindset that men and boys who do not fit your standard of masculine stereotype need to “man up” or that they are somehow less of a man, you aren’t the problem. If you aren’t of the mindset that women are “supposed to” cook and clean and read romance novels, then you aren’t the problem.

    This discussion started with the speaking of men and women in generic terms, as if there is one description or set of descriptions that could apply to everyone, or maybe should apply to everyone. I would hope that if someone in the feminism thread said “men like to sexually assault women”, speaking in such generic terms, that someone would come in and say, **** no, “men” don’t, misogynistic ***holes do. (The NotAllMen hashtag is stupid, because “not all men” is factually correct, and I don’t believe that people who share an identity are responsible for the behavior of every person who shares that identity.)
     
  13. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Idk, man, this sounds a lot more dangerous than you seem to think it is. I have no idea what you mean by "dominant over and aggressive towards", but it sounds like the kind of behavior I might respond to by immediately punching you in the face. I might not give you any warning or time to apologize.

    If this doesn't concern you, some other dude might respond by pulling a gun and gunning you down before you even realize what's happening.

    I'm guessing you know where to draw the line, and how to read upfront who might be accepting of this approach and who might not, but it's a dangerous approach.

    This isn't some deep faux intellectual plea for you to find Jesus. This is me passing on Dave Chappelle's When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong warning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  14. vin

    vin Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 1999
    Today I was called out by a JC staffer for having toxic masculinity. :mad:

    Not cool, bro.
     
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  15. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2018
    Nah, brother. I read ya.

    It's not in an uncomfortable or random manner. I'm in the military so we kind of feed off talking **** to each other. Plus, I'm on the muscular side so I use that to my advantage when we get physical. It's all in good fun, and I make sure to pull anybody that may not respond to that energy aside and tell them "Hey, if anything I do offends you or you don't feel comfortable with, let me know and I'll adapt."

    I'm not like this raging alpha storming around society. Especially not as a black man. But I am a man who is sure of himself and confident and it's obvious. It took me a long time to find this part of myself and it feels great. It feels natural. But I thank you, brother, for looking out.
     
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  16. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    If I could take us in a slightly different direction.

    The word for a royal tutor in Ancient Egypt is mena nesut, translated "male breast for the King." And, indeed, they were seen as basically a full equivalent of a breast nurse. Men in this position often very proudly used their wealth to commission statues of themselves just doing childcare. Rocking a child in their arms, bouncing it on their, lap, et cetera. This all suggests that for them, the idea of manhood did not preclude doing domestic tasks. Indeed, they seemed to take pride in participating in the development of young people, just like their society recognized the importance of contributions from both males and females in proper development. I think this is a model we could learn from, and is in some ways more healthy than what we do at present.

    @Sarge : I told you I would see you around town.
     
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  17. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    ?
     
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  18. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I (kind of randomly) brought up Ancient Egypt in another thread and you had a quip about it. I promised to "see you around town"--that this would come back up on another day. Today is that day. Face your judgment.
     
  19. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Help. I'm being judged by J-w. How will I ever survive.
     
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  20. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Don't worry, there's another 41 judges involved.

    You didn't sin more than 41 times in your life, did you?

    We are indeed in the completely opposite direction from stereotyping - male breast for the King. This is not about society at all, just about it's absolute most privileged layer.
     
  21. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    POV: Wocky finds you ‘around town.’

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  22. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Okay, but two points about that.

    1. First of all, this is kind of an unfair criticism. These are the very earliest nation-states known in all of human history. Only the elite were literate, and all the literate people were also the elite. So yes, of course a lot of their concerns are going to be oriented in a direction that reflects those values and life concerns. We could equally point out that men with hugely famous military careers instead chose to describe themselves as scribes in their tombs and stressed their academic credentials (eg Horemheb). We fully admit that we are only really getting a good sense of elite culture. That doesn't reduce it's value to us as a model for understanding gender relations, just as we shouldn't automatically dismiss an idea about gender relations that developed in a community with low socioeconomic status.

    2. In the second place, I don't even see how it would be a problem here. The monarch deserves the very best the world has to offer. For them, the very best the world had to offer was influence from both sexes in child-rearing. Which is the point I made: Ancient Egypt favored involved childcare from both males and females. What you've highlighted agrees with my point, not disagrees.
     
  23. The Jedi in the Pumas

    The Jedi in the Pumas Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2018
    https://bossip.com/2249381/jonathan-majors-masculinity-response/amp/

    I love Jonathan Majors’ definition of masculinity:

    “There’s strength and there’s vulnerability. There’s awareness, and then there’s acknowledgement of ignorance. It doesn’t matter how much you weigh or how much you bench press. That’s not the point. But, I hear my brothers. We fight and claw for every inch of positive news we get. I don’t shy away from this idea of Black masculinity. I’m just living my life. I am male. I am Black.”

    And black masculinity in particular is a completely different discussion.
     
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  24. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I'm beyond tired of Ben Shapiro's voice. He was whining about how Sports Illustrated put women on its covers, admitting he canceled his subscription over that, and then he was whining about how attractive Kim Petras is. I just wish he and Matt Walsh would get a room and go **** off into the night and leave everyone else alone. I'll just say...I knew gay professors at a Methodist university and a liberal seminary who were more manly than those two...and certainly far better people than they. And just to be clear, I know gay and straight guys on here who are more manly than those two.

    And just to be clear, manliness is a social construction, of course. I'm not saying that they are feminine or anything. I was partially being outrageous, though I do despise Shapiro's voice and I'm amused by Walsh's hand gestures. I think they're really insecure, as well as malicious.

    At any rate, here are a couple of great videos about how Aragorn is an example of healthy masculinity.



     
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  25. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    I think the bigger issue is some of the built-in point behind a statement that is roughly boiling down to "I know gay men that are more manly than them".
     
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