Qui-Gon.. lies?

Long thread but Worth it!

I am just beginning to read the SW books and really learn.. and from what I have learned a Jedi cannot fight unless it is in defense.. but he also is told to stay away from the dark side of the force..
Yoda tells Obi-wan about Dooku in EP2 that Dooku is part of the dark-side because.. "Lies, Deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now"

So... just how on the edge is Qui-Gon?
You would NEVER think it to look at him.. but lets
Think about it. Obi-wan argues with Qui-gon that he should listen to the Jedi council more often and then he would BE ON the council.. yet he does not, and he is kept from being on the council for it.
Qui-Gon is rebellious that is made clear.. but did anyone see past his peaceful ways and soft voice and notice all his lies and tricks??

I can see why Obi-wan was a little corrupted by him.. in other words why he began to be rebellious himself and a little arogant. When Obi tells Yoda that Anakin has become arogant Even Yoda tells Obi-wan "Yes yes..A flaw more and more common amoung Jedi.. Too sure of themselves they are.. even the older more experienced ones.." and he looks at Obi-wan as if it is obiwan he is talking about. But Obi shrugs it off.

Here are some of the things I noticed in TPM that
make me jittery about Qui-gon:

-He is kept off the Jedi council for being a rebel
-He keeps his "own" rules
-He seems to be a loner and misunderstood
-He lets obiwan refer to alien species as "what is this?" and that is a bit arrogant.
-He uses mind manipulation on the leader of the Gungans when the Gungans post no threat to him.. he just wants his way and quickly.
-He tries to use mind manipulation on Watto just because he want to pay in republic credits.
(in the lucas approved books Luke knows not to manpulate minds unless you have to for defense. Even Obi-wan in ANewHope only uses it on stormtroopers for Defense)
-He hides the fact that he is a Jedi from Anakin
When Anakin corners him he lies about how he got the lightsaber "perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him.." Anni of course says "I dont think so"
-He hides the reason he needs Anakins help from his mother and never tells anyone at all on Tatooine.
Anakins mother never knows her son is leaving to become a Jedi during a WAR.
-He LIES to Ani when Ani asks why he is taking his blood.. Quigon says "to check for infections" when he is really checking Anis midichlorian count.
-He LIES to watto and says he won a podracer in a game of chance when it is really Anis podracer.
(because Anakin came up with that lie. Anni told him "watto doesn't know about it you could make him think its yours..") ..also this teaches Ani to lie in the future like Qui-gon did.
-He knows Anakin is a Jedi and lets him race anyway and that may be cheating since no other competitor is a JEDI with those kind of reflexes. Of course Everyone cheats in those races but Anni doesn't.
Anni doesn't really know why he is the only human that can do it.. and so he cheats without knowing it. Before he knows hes Jedi Quigon has himrace.
-He decieves Watto into letting Anni race by using money as a temptation and lies about where he got the podracer.
-He tries to decieve the Queen by finding a way to get the parts to get home without her.. Padme is the queen and tells him "the queen would not approve" and he says: "the queen doesn't have to know." This creates mistrust in the Queen and later she questions him again, "do you really think this is a good idea, trusting our Fate to a boy we hardly know?" she doesnt quite trust him.
-He LIES AND DECIEVES Watto in the chance cube toss. Blue its the boy, red the mother (goes free) Qui-gon waves his hand and makes the cube fall on blue THAT is cheating. Anakin is won by a cheating Jedi.
-Then When watto tells him "you can't have him, it wasn't a fair bet, you knew the boy would win somehow you knew it..." He threatens him with the Hutts.. when he is supposed to be peaceful unless defending himself.. and he never tells h

 

Alot of these need to be taken in context.


-He is kept off the Jedi council for being a rebel

Not his fault. And he seems plenty willing to take the consequences of thinking differently. This is hardly a way of measuring "deceit" when the council and other Jedi have been accused of being arrogant by Yoda himself and the insinuation that corruption may be amidst them.


-He keeps his "own" rules

Most of which people would argue remain well within the realm of safe practice. I've seen nothing that significantly harms others.


-He seems to be a loner and misunderstood

Again, not a sign of deceit. More of a characteristic and societal conflict.


-He lets obiwan refer to alien species as "what is this?" and that is a bit arrogant.

Yes, but he's also extremely annoyed with Jar Jar and in a foul, irritable mood in general about what's going to happen with Naboo. But I will give you this one. I wasn't particularly fond of how they treated him at first - but in Qui Gon's defense, he later saves Jar Jar's life, seeing the value in the Gungan's existence.


-He uses mind manipulation on the leader of the Gungans when the Gungans post no threat to him.. he just wants his way and quickly.

No, he resorted to what options he had left. People were going to suffer if he didn't get to the Naboo fast enough to warn them, an effect that, as Obi Wan pointed out, would eventually trickle down to the Gungans themselves. Qui Gon made a small sacrifice on the part of the Gungan lord's dignity for the sake of many more lives.


-He tries to use mind manipulation on Watto just because he want to pay in republic credits.
(in the lucas approved books Luke knows not to manpulate minds unless you have to for defense. shame_on_you Even Obi-wan in ANewHope only uses it on stormtroopers for Defense)

Which he was going to use to repair his ship so he could take the Queen to the Senate and hopefully settle the issue of war on Naboo. Again, Qui Gon considered the plight of Naboo and its people above the petty credit scheming of a less than honest dealer.


-He hides the fact that he is a Jedi from Anakin
When Anakin corners him he lies about how he got the lightsaber "perhaps I killed a Jedi and took it from him.." Anni of course says "I dont think so"

That is hardly deceit. That's more not wanting to throw around the fact that he's a Jedi and draw attention and his desire to test what Anakin knew. It was hardly a malicious act in any manner.


-He hides the reason he needs Anakins help from his mother and never tells anyone at all on Tatooine.
Anakins mother never knows her son is leaving to become a Jedi during a WAR.

Qui Gon is on a strange planet ruled by Hutt gangsters trying to protect the lives of the queen so she can get to the Senate alive. That is hardly something you want spread around when you don't know who you can trust or what might be accidentally overheard. Best kept in as few hands as possible - and he does admit some of the story to the family.

Qui Gon never intended to drag Anakin into a war. That was something everyone was trying to avoid to begin with. The Queen was going to the Senate to try and find diplomatic means of removing him from the conflict. Likewise, Qui Gon expected the Council to accept Anakin and likely allow him to stay.


-He LIES to Ani when Ani asks why he is taking his blood.. Quigon says "to check for infections" when he is really checking Anis midichlorian count.

A harmless action. He didn't want Anakin, who is chattery enough, to go around spreading information Qui Gon hadn't confirmed and which would draw attention.


-He LIES to watto and says he won a podracer in a game of chance when it is really Anis podracer.
(because Anakin came up with that lie. Anni told him "watto doesn't know about it you could make him think its yours..") ..also this teaches Ani to lie in the future like Qui-gon did.

Anakin's idea, Anakin's choice in a situation where they had no

 

"oh ani..everytime you race i just about die"

Padme: says something about finding another way and not wanting to harm your son.

Qui Gin just says nothing.

The Watto Dice scene is straight up GREED (darkside).

maul and qui gon look at each other in just the same way that dooko and anakin did while fighting.

yeah, there is more than meets the eye with qui gon. even the begginning of TPM..Obi wan crys out, its something else master, not the mission..elusive. (paraphrasing) qui gon makes sure to turn Obi wans attention back to the task at hand. for all of jinns actions there are two sides of thought that can go with them..thats the beauty of it. just like his master:dooko.

qui gon even admits that if u gamble (as he did with Anakin in more ways than one) eventually you will loose.

 

"oh ani..everytime you race i just about die"

Padme: says something about finding another way and not wanting to harm your son.

Qui Gin just says nothing.

What exactly do you expect him to do? The boy offered, the mother relented, and he had no other choice. In fact, you're neglecting to mention the fact that Qui Gon did try alternative means - he asked if there was anyone close to the Republic who could help them. Once that option was squashed by Shmi, there was nothing else for him to do.


The Watto Dice scene is straight up GREED (darkside).


greed (grd)
n.

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: ?Many... attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed? (Henry Fawcett).

How the heck is Qui Gon being greedy? He wanted Anakin to be freed. Not because of any desire of personal gain. Not because he wanted to own Anakin. Not because he wanted power and prestige from finding the boy. In fact, Qui Gon stood to lose face with the Council over Anakin. Greed is a desire to possess more than one needs for oneself. Qui Gon gambled the way he did not only for Anakin's self but for the sake of the Jedi at large, as he firmly believed it was fate that he met Anakin and that the boy had the ability to balance the Force. He is nothing thinking of himself at all in that context; he is doing it for the goodwill of others.


maul and qui gon look at each other in just the same way that dooko and anakin did while fighting.

So you're saying that if you were suddenly assaulted out of nowhere your first instinct would be to smile at the attacker? Angry expressions are not a sure sign of turning to the dark side. It just means that you're struggling and upset that a dark Sith creature has just attacked you and is likely there to threaten lives. Luke made similar expressions in the battle against Vader at Bespin. It's a natural body stimuli to an aggressive, outside force.


yeah, there is more than meets the eye with qui gon. even the begginning of TPM..Obi wan crys out, its something else master, not the mission..elusive. (paraphrasing) qui gon makes sure to turn Obi wans attention back to the task at hand. for all of jinns actions there are two sides of thought that can go with them..thats the beauty of it. just like his master:dooko.

Yeah, there is another side to it. It's the fact that he tends to think differently from other characters, that's all. Qui Gon is meant to act as a foil to Obi Wan's stricter, rule-enforced methods. Dooku is definitely Sith Lord; Qui Gon is not even going near the territory. They are hardly anywhere on the same level with each other and your analogy is thus rendered void.


qui gon even admits that if u gamble (as he did with Anakin in more ways than one) eventually you will loose.

Yes, you do, but it was hardly his gamble with Anakin's training that drives Anakin to failure. Anakin came up with the pod race plan, and Anakin was willing to take the risks. Qui Gon tried to avoid it and go around it, but he found himself backed into a corner with no other choice.

Now, if you mean Anakin turning to the Dark Side, that is hardly Qui Gon's fault. There are a number of factor that contributed to it, sure, but the choice was still ultimately Anakin's. It has been insinuated more than once by the movie and Lucas himself that they're meeting was an act of Fate. Qui Gon was supposed to meet Anakin Skywalker, and Qui Gon was supposed to bring him into the career of a Jedi. You cannot stop an action when you cannot see the future at hand. Hindsight is always 20/20 vision...and the sad thing is, even as Anakin turned the dark side, he really was fulfilling his destiny.


Really, guys, there is enough villainy in Star Wars without having to grasp at straws to add more.

 

The Watto Dice scene is straight up GREED (darkside).


Even if you assume that it was greed, then where did you get greed=darkside from? It doesn't say that anywhere in the movies.

Anger and hate are of the darkside. Greed may be frowned upon, or it may not, but either way it is never associated with the darkside.

 

you guys sure seem to go along way to justify the actions of a slain jedi.



let me ask you this.

why would lucas put it in there that qui gon would manipulate the dice. why not just let them tumble and let them tumble in favor of anakin. why not have him go by his own words. (it adds nothing or takes away nothing in the movie if they just flip the dice and it lands for anakin)

"We'll let fate decide". (so why not let fate decide)

why would LUCAS have him cheat? when 5 scenes later he says:

Shimi: Is he to become a Jedi?

Jinn: Yes. Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident.

its not grasping at straws. its a real sense of wonder.

 

*shrugs* You seem to be going a long way to villify one where you don't have to. I'm just poking holes in your logic.


why would lucas put it in there that qui gon would manipulate the dice. why not just let them tumble and let them tumble in favor of anakin. why not have him go by his own words. (it adds nothing or takes away nothing in the movie if they just flip the dice and it lands for anakin)

"We'll let fate decide". (so why not let fate decide)

why would LUCAS have him cheat? when 5 scenes later he says:

Shimi: Is he to become a Jedi?

Jinn: Yes. Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident.

Why did Watto have to the roll the dice rather than just give Qui Gon a straight answer? Was he not in his own way trying to have a chance at cheating the Jedi out of the better slave with the possibility that he might get Shmi instead?

Qui Gon switching the dice shows us how important Anakin is to him. He truly, passionately feels Anakin is the chosen one - and changing a dice is the way he felt to go about it. Why not leave it to fate? SW has shown time and time again that there is a choice that goes along with destiny. An individual must decide if they will follow one path or the other. Qui Gon saw himself as the tool that would help lead Anakin down the path he honestly thought the boy was meant for. He believed that his purpose was to take Anakin from Tatooine and train him as a Jedi, and through the workings of fate, such a thing did occur.

And again, heh, if we do consider it cheating, I think the fact that he's attempting to free a child from a life of fruitless enslavement far outweighs the negative ramifications of how he went about it.


its not grasping at straws. its a real sense of wonder.

You used a morallly debatable issue to suggest Qui Gon Jinn possibly exhibited traits associated and reminiscent of the dark side. Yes, that is grasping at straws. Most of what else you provided was completely taken out of context, and I notice this is the only point you're bothering to argue with me about in a post where you claimed 3/4 of his actions throughout the movie pointed to disputable reputation.

Qui Gon is meant to make us wonder, sure. But that sense of wonder has nothing to do with whether or not he's a good person.

 

Qui-Gon is an interesting character, and people have been wanting to sully his name as far back as 1999!

There is little I can say that Chaotic Serenity hasn't already, but there are a few things.

"Perhaps I killed a Jedi, and took it from him?"
"I don't think so. Nobody can kill a Jedi."
"I wish that were so..."

This is hardly deceit. Describing that as a lie is stretching it just a bit too far. It's more a joke than anything - watch his face as he says it, he's smiling! He looks at Shmi as if sharing the joke with her.

Regarding the dice. What evidence is there to suggest that he WAS cheating? We see him move his hand - yes, he is certainly manipulating the dice. But for his own benefit? There is something about the way Watto looks at him that tells me the dice was loaded in his favour. He glares at Qui-Gon very suspiciously - as if he'd been expecting red to show up, not blue. Why would he, if the dice wasn't weighted?

As for letting Obi-Wan speak in this way, it's a matter of fact that Qui-Gon championed causes that other Jedi viewed as not worthy of their time. In the EU he often gives out to Obi-Wan for looking down on creatures. In the game of the Phantom Menace, he says, "I know you look down on these Gungans, Obi-Wan, but try not to hurt them". Obi-Wan didn't want Jar-Jar to come along - another one of Qui-Gon's "charges". Another waste of time, as far as Obi-Wan was concerned.

George Lucas said that by the end of The Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan has BECOME Qui-Gon, yet I don't see anyone here vilifying his actions. Rather, he is seen in a more positive light, yet as Lucas said, he practically IS Qui-Gon.

 

Gemini and Serenity yall have a had a pretty good debate here and you both make really good points. Gemini, I think Serenity is right though, some things you have taken out of context. Serenity, you gotta admit that Gemini has noticed some things that maybe Yoda or Mace would not do.

I personally think that there is something in the middle here. As to his intentions, I really dont think that Qui Gon ever had any selfish of evil intent in anything that he did.

However, I DO think that sometimes he operated in a gray area.

I think this is a valid view in light of the fact that Qui Gon was a rather late addition to the story, taking the place of what GL originally wanted OB1 to do. So, at least, IMHO, GL made an affirmative attempt to distinguish QG from the rest of the Jedi, going so far as to paint him somewhat as a rogue who has not attained the position of councilman because of his unorthodox views/methods.

I think QG was a pragmatist, like Serenity said, he did what he had to do in order to accomplish his goal looking at the realities of the given situation. However, it cannot be denied that he WAS deceptive in the instances of lying to Watto and checking Anakin's blood. He saw it as necessary in those situations, and he may have been right, but you cant get around the fact that he took a step towards decieving someon (unlike OB1 in ANH was trying to avoid stormtroopers, but couldnt help it.) By the way, I always thought that Watto was using weighted dice due to his sneering expression, the fact that he HAPPENED to have some dice, and the look of shock when QG won.

I think that this is where QG breaks from the Jedi Order because I get the impression that the more orthodox Jedi would have gone about things differently, and would have gone by the code no matter what. Maybe Im wrong.

Anyway, I definitely think QG operated in a gray area, and I do find it interesting, as GL implied in that "fate" comment, that it was QG who actually brought Anakin to the world.

 

Wow!. There is some deep discussion on this thread. I can logically see some of the points made in regard to QG's line of thinking and methodologies as far as deceit, etc go, however, being somewhat the realist that I am and believing more in getting something done, especially if it is important or in the interest of saving a life/lives,etc, I have to go with the fact that QG did what he needed to do. True, maybe flexing the Jedi rules and reg's a bit, but nonetheless making attempts to progress forward for the common good.

"A peaceful time, in a more civilized age" QG seems like that kind of guy who followed the rules for the most part, but maybe kept his salad fork on the wrong side of the plate. That "civilized age" seems to have had the meaning of a strict, rule following, proper era in the SW saga's. QG knew what needed to be accomplished in order to get the job done.

Does this involve a certain level of pride, sure. A little rule breaking, maybe. I think he was innovative, confident had some SW sized cohonies.

(Sorry this was so long, once in a while , I really like a particular thread and like to run with it a bit. Incidentally, I also noticed that fact that Watto gave off a vibe as if his "deck" was already stacked and he had an advantage with the dice, I think QG was just trying to level the playing field.)

 

If Qui-Gon hadn't done all those things, the movie would have sucked...

 

Remember, Qui Gon swapped a power source for Anakin before the podrace too..just to point that out.

 

In my opinion, I do not think that Qui-Gon was meant to be the typical perfect hero in the film. I think Lucas wanted to make this character complex--all characters should be complex. Qui-Gon isn't the perfect example of a Jedi (my opinion), and I don't think he was meant to be.

I started looking into his character and I have to say, there are things he says and does that make me question what sort of Jedi this guy is. However, I do not think that he makes for a villain; his intentions are good.

The flaws of his character, however, may be result to his own training or upbringing. Note how he refers to the Trade Federation: "These Trade Federation 'types' are cowards." That's quite an assumption considering that these cowards are in business with a sith. Gutsy move on their part. And again, take note of his treatment of Jar Jar, calling him brainless and saying, "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here."

I wasn't particularly fond of how they treated him at first - but in Qui Gon's defense, he later saves Jar Jar's life, seeing the value in the Gungan's existence.

I have to diagree--Qui-Gon was ready to leave and would have left Jar Jar to be punished, but the Gungan had to try and persuade Qui-Gon to get him off the hook. Qui-Gon rethinks Jar Jar and says, "We do need a navigator to get us through the planet core" or something along those lines.

Yes, Jar Jar is the type of character you want to throw in the trunk, but did we expect or should we have expected this sort of treatment of the "local?"


(Sorry for the edits--very tired and discovered some mispelling)

 

It is not like Qui Gon is Quinlan Vos, an EU jedi knight who was far more closer to the dark side than Qui Gon ever was!
So, no I happen to disagree.

 

I wasn't particularly fond of how they treated him at first - but in Qui Gon's defense, he later saves Jar Jar's life, seeing the value in the Gungan's existence.

I'm perhaps thinking the book here, but after saving Jar Jar, Qui Gon made some statements to Obi Wan about the value of his life. He also had to ask Boss Nass what would happen to Jar Jar, and after hearing Jar Jar would be killed, he then felt it proper to save him.

This being said, I do agree that I dislike their treatment of poor JJB. He really gets alot of flak when he shouldn't. But in Lucas' defense, as you said, Qui Gon is not meant to be a perfect hero. He is supposed to be human with human flaws and prejudices - I just don't feel the need to villify him, which what I felt some of the original poster's points were. (Or, at least, taken out of context and twisted.) Heck, we touched upon it in in ESB with Luke's treatment of Yoda. Sure, he was alot more open-minded and amiable toward him, but it was still obvious that he didn't take Yoda seriously for a minute until he learned the truth of his identity.

 

Well, I think the dice rolling trick and using mind trick was to showcase some of the Jedi's powers. A boring movie it would have been if the Jedi did little to demonstrate their abilities.

 

This is an interesting discussion, and one long debated. Let's not cheapen it by making accusations of straw-grasping.

Frankly, I don't see anything more dishonest in QGJ's actions than I do Ben or Yoda's.

 

I hardly consider my argument to another's logic cheapening this discussion in any way. I have conceeded that Qui Gon is hardly the paragon of common virtue, but the original poster has yet to make a viable point that suggests to me true justification his attempt to villify the character through the examples he provides.

If you post an argument for on side, expect people to represent the others. I hardly attacked the poster personally. I simply stated honestly that I felt his logic was flawed.

 

-He tries to decieve the Queen by finding a way to get the parts to get home without her.. Padme is the queen and tells him "the queen would not approve" and he says: "the queen doesn't have to know." This creates mistrust in the Queen and later she questions him again, "do you really think this is a good idea, trusting our Fate to a boy we hardly know?" she doesnt quite trust him.

He knew that Padme was in fact the Queen at that point. So with that all their interactions basically involve Qui-Gon expressing supreme authority and patronization. This is all my opinion, but I think Qui-Gon views the Force more as a tool than an actual entity. This correlates with his take on midichlorians.

I'm a big Qui-Gon fan, but that doesn't mean I have to ignore his shadiness involving his use of power. In a world of black and white, his shade of grey is intriguing.

 

I have conceeded that Qui Gon is hardly the paragon of common virtue, but the original poster has yet to make a viable point that suggests to me true justification his attempt to villify the character through the examples he provides.

Noone is villifying QG, the original poster was simply posting an idea that had occurred to him through watching the movie. If you look at QG in a different light, then thats cool too. But I think that, although not all of them, there have been some points made that paint QG in a gray light that at least I hadnt thought of before.

I hardly attacked the poster personally. I simply stated honestly that I felt his logic was flawed.

Telling someone that they are grasping at straws DOES seem to attack someone personally because you make his point sound fabricated. You honestly may not have meant to, but thats how it came off. I never got the impression that he went into watching the movie with the intent to find something to make a point about, I got the impression that something occurred to him, and SOME of them are valid points, others taken out of context.

 

He mentioned the dark side a couple times in his post, so that's I speculated he was also suggesting there was an air of villainy to what Qui Gon was doing. My mistake if I read into it wrong.

I hardly meant to sound nasty, but I concede that you have a point. So to the original poster, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. I can pull out of the raven's claw in an argument, so I'm sorry if I came off as a bit rude.

 

I will say it again, Qui Gon Jinn was no more a dark side user than Obi Wan. His methods were unusual for a Jedi Master, but hardly enough to warrant him working for the sith, or what have you. He was a maverick, a rebel even, and was sometimes at odds with the Council over things, but he was still loyal to the Order.

 

No one is perfectly good, everyone will make mistakes. It is part of being human. I am tired that every time someone does something that is a bit off the moral, people flip out. Hey dude, he was walking a fine line with the dark side. Bull, people mature from their mistakes. Measure the intentions. Qui Gon uses some odd ways, and perhaps wronglyfully, but for good intentions. A Sith intentions are to do evil. Qui Gon's methods were reactionary, Palps methods are intentional.

Obi One lied to Luke about Darth being his father.

Obi one lies to Luke about Leia in ANH, clearly after Luke says she is beautiful in front of him. You would think Obi would tell him, hey dude, don't fall in lover with her.

Yoda kept Vader's identity also.

Yoda kept his own identity from Luke.

Using your logic, everybody in the movie has to dabble in the dark side.

 

I guess it all depend of your point of view...

 

I think that I am in agreement with rbarcia. I think that the original poster was trying to raise the issue that QG may skirt the edges of the dark side not by intention, but because he believes that sometimes the ends justify the means, in order for a greater good.

This is in character for him considering he is considered somewhat of a rogue and somewhat reckless to the council (not to mention he was the apprentice of someone who himself became disillusioned with the Jedi).

I think some of the original posters points were valid and good discussion fodder because I find it telling that it just happened to be this rogue Jedi that happened to discover this kid who becomes so evil. If it werent for this rogue/gray area Jedi making his apprentice swear to train this kid, none of the DV would have happened. All the "good", by the book Jedi were against (at least at first) Anakin being trained due to his volatility, which QG obviously didnt see as a problem, or at least a solvable one.

Typing this post has made me think of something - why exactly did the Council acquiesce to Anakin being trained? Did they realize just how powerful he was or did they feel that because QG had started something, they should at least finish it?