PT R.I.P. Sir Christopher Lee 1922 - 2015

But TCW is Lucas though. Not to start a canon war; however it does mean it’s by default more “real Dooku” than the EU stuff is due to creator involvement.

 

Well, it's a matter of subjective opinion as to what one perceives as Star Wars. TCW is more Dave Filoni and the writers, though. Lucas did pitch some ideas, such as Darth Maul's takeover of the criminal syndicates, but Filoni and the writers made most of the decisions, such as Ahsoka living. I don't recall any mention of Lucas having any input on how Dooku was portrayed in the behind-the-scenes features on the DVDs. Filoni seems to have wanted to portray Dooku as the ruthless leader of the Separatists. Plus, ya know, even in the EU comics, Dooku is a sociopathic force of nature. And I'm not denying that Sidious turned him into a monster. I'm just saying that he was caught up in his rationalization of what was right for the galaxy.



I encourage you to watch the Fanalysis and Council Force Cast episodes about Darth Plagueis, Labyrinth of Evil, and the ROTS novelization. Dooku's characterization is one of the primary points of discussion. So, it seems you're arguing in favor of the totally evil Dooku in the ROTS novelization over the embittered idealist/fascist Dooku in Plagueis and LOE. And you're entitled to your opinion. But when Dooku talks in AOTC, I get more of the sense that he is a Sith Lord who wants to enforce a fascistic version of his old Jedi philosophy on the galaxy. And Palpatine lied to him about his true goals for the Empire. Even the more prejudiced Dooku we see in the ROTS novelization believed that he would remain the Emperor's enforcer after the Clone Wars ended, and he preferred to convert Obi-Wan, not Anakin, to the dark side. The problem with that portrayal is his prejudice against aliens, which comes out of nowhere. It's up to you as to whether you believe he truly thought of people as assets and threats only. But even the young Dooku we see in the old EU comes off as an entitled aristocrat who fancies himself as superior long before he reigned as a Jedi Master. Plus, he also has a prejudice against cyborgs and despises Anakin for his robotic arm, which is ironic, given that Anakin cuts off both of his hands by the end of the duel. If he hadn't been killed, he would have been forced to become a cyborg himself.

 

I think Labyrynth Of Evil is the only SW book from before 2012 I've never read, though I'm a big Luceno fan. I have to ask; what exactly is Dooku's vision of a perfect world?

Enforce the Jedi way? Which parts?
Upon the galaxy? What does that mean, How does that work? Through fascism? Sounds kind of antithetical.

I'm a big fan and I'm having trouble following how this works. I'm curious, but it needs more explanation.

Qui-Gon describes Darth Maul as both trained in the Jedi arts and a Sith Lord.

"You must join me Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!"

 

Labyrinth of Evil is notable for its portrayal of classical General Grievous.

Well, I'm borrowing Jensraai1's phrase. What I mean is that Dooku was an arrogant Jedi who believed that the Jedi Order should rule over the Republic, not the corrupt politicians and corporations. He was also vexed by the Order's incompetence that led to Jedi getting killed, and Qui-Gon's death was the final straw. It's similar to how Jorus C'baoth believed that Force-sensitives were superior to everyone else. Dooku basically felt that the Jedi should embrace the darker aspects of their personalities and order for the purpose of enforcing his own brand of justice. If you read his statements to Hero Damaask and Palpatine in the Plagueis novel, you get the sense that he was close to becoming a Dark Jedi because of these beliefs. The interesting thing is that he did not seek power for himself. He was an idealist whose views of bringing order to the galaxy were not unlike those of Plagueis. Even when Dooku became Darth Tyranus, he vacillated about the notion of overthrowing Sidous and taking his place. While he is shown to have wanted to use someone like Asajj or Savage to help him overthrow his master in TCW, the old EU depicts this idea as flowing in and out of his motivations like the weather. On the one hand, he would seek out Sith knowledge for himself and immerse himself with the dark side as Tyranus, but on the other hand, he seemed content with Sidious' promises that he would bring stability to the galaxy. Of course, Sidious was manipulating him and always wanted Anakin to be Dooku's replacement.

I understand. But if you look at Atris, she was a Jedi who turned the dark side and basically become a Sith in denial. She sought to destroy the Sith, but she became one herself. Dooku is not so different. The thing is that many Jedi like Mace Windu were arrogant. Mace himself even contemplated killing Sidious and taking control of the Republic temporarily, and Yoda said that could lead to a dark place for them. Dooku's belief was that the Jedi should embrace the dark side to rid the Republic of its corruption. That is why Sidious and he enticed the corporations to supply the Separatists' armies. They unified them for the purpose of giving them both their sham war but also putting all the CEOs in one place so Anakin could later kill them all. Sidious later stripped the Federation and other Separatist suppliers of their holdings for the Empire. In Dooku's mind, the Jedi should have been actively controlling the Republic instead of being what Darth Plagueis called "negligent parents." And Plagueis was not really wrong about that notion of the Jedi being negligent and foolish servants of a corrupt Republic. This civil war was going to happen anyway, given the divisions between the Other Rim and the Core Worlds, the corporations exploiting the Outer Rim worlds, etc. The Sith simply stepped in and co-opted the coming conflict to benefit their rise in the Grand Plan. The Clone Wars were inevitable. Darth Plagueis came up with the general plan, and Sidious came up with the details of how to implement the revenge of the Sith. So, Dooku went along with this because Palpatine promised him that as a Sith he could do what the Jedi would not: destroy the Republic and replace it with something better. Of course, Plagueis was one who preferred to rule behind the scenes in a reformed Republic, not an empire, and he actually wanted to reward, negotiate, and show mercy to his allies. That's what I'm trying to get at. Dooku as he was as a Jedi would have been down with that, but the dark side made him more extreme over time. If Plagueis had been his partner, they probably would have kept the notion of a benevolent dictatorship that would benefit the galaxy. In contrast, Sidious was wanted to make himself a god and force everyone under him to compete with each other for his favor. He wanted to promote selfishness and rivalry. Plagueis was a realist who had an idealistic end goal that was not unlike Dooku's idealistic view of fascism. It's like when Anakin said that "someone wise" should "make" people agree on what was best for all the people.

Yeah, but like I said, Dooku's motivation as to whether or not he would overthrow Sidious changed with the weather. I've read all this for years, and I listened to people who (EvanNova95, Jensaarai1, Antoine Bandele, Grey Jedi 91, etc.) have PhDs in the Expanded Universe. I just don't like this Saturday Morning Cartoon version of Dooku that some of you seem to view him to be. The problem with TCW is that it sometimes portrayed him that way, even portraying him as a sadist when he used lightning against Anakin once. The thing is that Dooku DOES NOT care about your suffering. Darth Vader and Darth Tyranus were more powerful than Darth Maul because they were icy Sith Lords who meted out their own perverted brands of justice with emotionless precision. Darth Maul undermined himself before and after his resurrection. Unlike Maul and Sidious, who enjoys their fights, Vader analyzed his opponents like a machine and broke down his opponents. Dooku fought like a dancer and would use Form II to its apex in order to get inside his opponents' guard to cut them down. He may have been a lot more powerful in the Force than Maul, but his favorite thing to do was to use his elegant Form II, developed when the Sith first left the Jedi Order thousands of years ago, to stab you in the heart.

"Of course you will not kill me, not today."
- Count Dooku, to Mace Windu

At any rate, the Fanalysis and Council Forcecast episodes analyzing Darth Plagueis, Labyrinth of Evil, and the ROTS novelization explain Dooku's motivations very well. It's clear that LOE and Plagueis explain Dooku's motivations clearly, whereas the ROTS novelization gives you mostly a different Dooku. So, I don't really like this idea of people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, he's a Sith, so he's evil. The Jedi are always right and the Sith are always wrong." Well, of course he's evil, but his motivation for the Republic is not evil. It's idealism turned to rationalization. And the Jedi are not always right. In fact, they make mistakes throughout their history. The Sith are often and insane and evil, yes, but I can't abide the fundamentalism of some members on here who act like the Jedi are holy warriors and the Sith are just Satanists.

In short, there was always something wrong with Dooku, even as a kid, which is why Yoda decided to train him despite not technically being his Jedi Master. I'd suggest Yoda: Dark Rendezvous as an insight into both Yoda and Dooku. Yoda is portrayed in that book possibly even better than he is in TESB, and that's saying something. Dooku is shown to hate betrayal, and that's part of why he and Yoda cannot reconcile. He interprets Yoda not telling him about Kenobi and Skywalker being on Vjun with him as a betrayal, and he can't stand that.

If you’re going by movies only, yeah, Dooku does tell Kenobi that they can overthrow the Sith in AOTC, but he is not interested in doing that in ROTS. The novelization makes clear that he’s doing what Sidious told him to do. He tried to argue in favor of converting Kenobi, not Skywalker, but he went along with Sidious’ demands. The man is 83. He got convinced that he would get a good retirement and that he could train Jedi to become an army of Sith. Instead, Sidious made sure Anakin would kill him. Treachery is the way of the Sith. This is why people consider Dooku more of a cheerleader of the Sith than a Rule of Two Sith. He was too loyal for his own good.

 

TCW (pre-Season 7) is George Lucas Star Wars. He didn't just "pitch some ideas", he came up with most of the storylines and he had final say in all the episodes. Dooku's portrayal is as George wanted him to be portrayed, otherwise it wouldn't make it into the episode.

The portrayal of Dooku in TCW (and the movies) is much more nuanced than "the ruthless leader of the Separatists". His persona as the Separatist leader is not the same as his persona as the Sith Lord, which is what he really is.

When does that happen? Dooku in AOTC is someone who sought power for his own goals. He didn't want to enforce Jedi philosophy. He betrayed and abandoned it completely in his pursuit of power. He was disillusioned with it all.

 

I don't even need to respond now; you covered my thoughts almost perfectly.

 

Your interpretation of Jedi philosophy is narrow because there are Grey Jedi, too. Yes, I know that Dooku betrayed the Jedi, but you're oversimplifying the issue. I actually recall how you were talking as though the Jedi were all good and you spoke as though the Sith were not nuanced characters. So, I don't really get the desire to turn Dooku into this simplified version here. Saying he betrayed Jedi philosophy is too fundamentalist. His time as a Sith was a product of his life as a Jedi because he was a powerful apprentice, knight, and master who felt the Republic should be reformed according to his ideals. That's like saying that the Jedi were holy warriors who always got things right and they did not. They were tied to the Republic in a codependent relationship. While I don't agree with how certain individuals like Plagueis and Dooku wanted to change it, they were not wrong to complain about the corruption and the Jedi's blind service.

At any rate, I'm just glad that we can discuss a character portrayed so well by Christopher Lee all these years later.

 

No, there aren't. The very concept of a grey Jedi is an oxymoron.

How am I oversimplifying it? And when did I say any of that?

Dooku, by turning to the dark side, by seeking power for his own selfish purposes, did betray his Jedi teachings and all the Jedi stood for. His time as a Sith was a reflection of the path he chose to take. The path of selfishness and power.

?!

Who said he was wrong to complain about the corruption?

 

The concept of a Grey Jedi is not an oxymoron. Maybe in your view, but Kyle Katarn explained that Force powers not are in inherently good or bad. It's how you use them. You have a Grey Jedi as your avatar. Qui-Gon often defied the Jedi Council, despite his good working relationship with many of its members. Many things he did in the other stories, not to mention The Phantom Menace itself, were along a grey path. Qui-Gon would have been more willing to allow Anakin to see his mother than Obi-Wan and the Council. He was willing to go with whatever the Force told him, and if that meant bending the rules, then so be it.

Well, you in the past have said that Dooku was just evil and simply corrupted by Sith philosophy. That's what old-school Jedi would say. Dooku was corrupted by his ambitions for the Republic. He wanted to force it to be the utopia he desired, and his view was in line with what Plagueis talked about. He did not know that Sidious planned to turn it into an Empire where everyone was backstabbing each other with selfish desires to please the Emperor. His idealistic view of fascism, as opposed to the totalitarian reality than Sidious wanted, since he desired to be a god, was what corrupted him. Idealism can corrupt and make people do terrible things. Any cursory view of the 20th century and history in general will show that. Too much idealism can be dangerous, and that's why realism is necessary. Realistically, most Jedi were out of touch with the galaxy by that point. I think that orthodox Jedi like Satele Shan can have a point, but I like what Grey Jedi like Kyle Katarn, Jolee Bindo, Meetra Surik, Bastila Shan (later in her career), etc. bring to the table. Technically, Luke Skywalker was more of a Grey Jedi during the Yuuzhan Vong War. You know, you can't be limited by orthodoxy all the time. Else, you can't deal with different situations. Flexibility is essential for adaptation. That said, I don't agree with Vergere's view of the Force, since she was manipulative. I agree with Yoda in that debate.

Yes, the Sith is the way of selfishness and power. I understand that. The dark side degrades the soul and the body. But what I'm saying is that he rationalized why he did. One has to examine the intentions of why specific Sith Lords did what they did. Darth Traya, Darth Malgus, Darth Bane, and Darth Plagueis, and Lady Lumiya were the most unique of the Sith. In contrast, most them simply wanted power for themselves. Bane was among the few who genuinely wanted a successor who would kill him and be better than him. Dooku is called the cheerleader of the Sith because he willingly served Palpatine. That goes to show how well Sidious could manipulate his pawns. Maul, Tyranus, and Vader are all did terrible things, but they were also victimized by Sidious as much as the wider galaxy. If you think about it, Sidious' relationship with Dooku was effectively that of a middle-aged man using elder abuse and ear worm lies to keep him in line.

You're entitled to your opinion. I just think you're ignoring his motives for joining the dark side. The key is to understand why this elderly Jedi turned the dark side. That's what makes him interesting. He thought he do use it for a good cause, but he was corrupted by it. I think that Dooku's sense of superiority and his aggressive nature were always there, though. He was a very proud Jedi, and you know what they say. Pride goeth before a fall. The Jedi Order of the Republic Golden Age was arrogant, and they were the negligent errand-beings who did what the Republic wanted to. Dooku had a point that the corruption of the Republic had infected to the Jedi Order itself.

 

George Lucas has explicitly stated there is no such thing as Gray Jedi. As @Alexrd says, the concept is an oxymoron.

 

"It also gives her [Darth Traya] a lot of commonality with other ideologically-driven fallen Jedi like Count Dooku in that they're not card-carrying villains who have embraced evil. They're ultimately delusional villains who think that they're doing good."
- Jensaarai One

 

Shouldn't there be a separate thread to discuss the character, since this thread's original purpose was an in memoriam?

 

Hey, I never wrote anything in here six (!) years ago.
Better late than never, I guess:

Rest in peace, dear Christopher! You are missed, but I still enjoy your acting - and your interviews - immensely