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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Reading NJO...Again

Discussion in 'Literature' started by spicewood, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Is this really a Skipray Blastboat? I know Wookieepedia says it is, but in SbS it's just called a "blastboat" in lowercase, with no mention of a class name.
     
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Are there any other known Blastboat classes besides the Skipray?
     
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  3. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    I have no idea. I went with Skipray because that's what Luke's Jedi were using during this point of the war and prior. Would it have been in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia Volumes released a few years back? I have never seen it.

    Then again, I'm not sure the corvette and frigate analog designations are accurate either, like most NJO Yuuzhan Vong stats that come from the Sourcebook, which again I don't have.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
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  4. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    No, but since it's in lowercase, I assumed it meant some generic heavy gunship sort of craft, similar in size to the VT-49. I mean, authors have always played it loose with these terms, right? Like, what's a Ranger-class gunship anyway? Is it a corvette, a frigate, or something else?
     
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  5. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Built by Corellian Engineering Corporation. That's about it. Like most NJO and beyond books, no data (or pics) exist.
     
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  6. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    PART FOUR

    28 ABY

    Skirmish on the Hydian Way
    - Millennium Falcon, 12 Nssis-class clawcrafts (Jagged Fel's Vanguard Squadron) and 12 E-wing starfighters vs. 12 coralskippers and 1 dovin basal mine -- result: all Vong forces wiped out

    Second Battle of Obroa-skai
    - 1 Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analog (the Trickster), 2 MC80B star cruisers (including the Mon Adapyne), 1 Lancer-class frigate (the Whip Hand), 3 Republic-class cruisers (including the Far Thunder), 4 Corellian gunships (DP20s or Rangers?) (including the Pulsar), around 108 starfighters consisting of X-wings (Kyp Durron leading Kyp's Dozen, Corran Horn leading Rogue Squadron and Saber Squadron), E-wings (Blackmoon Squadron) and 12 snoopships (Wraith Squadron), 2 Hapan Battle Dragons and 3 Nova-class battle cruisers vs. 1 large ship (Supreme Commander Komm Karch's command ship, a worldship or Kor Chokk?), 8 Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analogs, 2 troop transports, Coralskippers, Yorik-akaga picket analogs and 2 yammosk war coordinators -- result: Far Thunder damaged, Pulsar scuttled, almost 100 starfighters (40 percent of pilots rescued) vs. Karsh's ship, 7 frigate analogs, both transports and many Coralskippers

    Skirmish near Kashyyyk aka Battle over the Far Thunder
    - 1 Republic-class cruiser (the Far Thunder), 1 Lancer-class frigate (the Whip Hand), 1 fleet tender (Hajen-class?), 12 X-wings (Jaina's Twin Suns Squadron) and 12 A-wings (Ijix Harona's Scimitar Squadron), 2 tender analogs (Sh'rip Sh'pa?) and Coralskippers -- result: Far Thunder scuttled, fleet tender destroyed, 3 X-wings with 2 pilots KIA vs. many coralskippers

    Battle of Ylesia
    - Star Destroyers, Cruisers (including the Bothan Assault Cruiser Ralroost), Frigates, other support vessels, starfighters including X-wings (Twin Suns, Rogue, Wild Knights, Barefoot and Screamer), Nssis-class clawcrafts (Vanguard), A-wings, Landspeeders, Troopers vs. Peace Brigade fleet including at least 1 Republic-class cruiser (presumably among the New Republic ships captured at Obroa-skai or Gyndine), E-wings and B-wings, Peace Brigade Presidential Guards, New Republic Guards duped by Pwoe, Landspeeders, Maal Lah's fleet consisting of his Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analog, 24 Coralskippers, 2 swoop analogs, Quednaks and Yuuzhan Vong warriors, Yuuzhan Vong reinforcements (no ships specified) -- result: many troopers and captives vs. Maal Lah's frigate analog, many Coralskippers and significant losses amongst the reinforcements thanks to Jacen Solo, many Peace Brigader capital ships and starfighters, many captives

    Raid on Duro
    - Bothan Assault Cruiser Ralroost, eight other capital ships, X-wings (Twin Suns, Rogues, Kyp's Dozen, Wild Knights), A-wings, Skipray Blastboats vs. Peace Brigade TIE fighters and I-7 Howlrunners, 3 cruiser analogs (mataloks or Suuv Ban D'Krid?), Transport analogs, Coralskippers, 1 yammosk war coordinator -- result: all Peace Brigade and Yuuzhan Vong forces

    Battle of Ebaq 9
    - New Republic / Jedi / Smugglers
    - Keyan Farlander's task force: 40 capital ships including the MC80B Star Cruiser Mon Adapyne and at least 1 Republic-class cruiser, X-wings (including Twin Suns), A-wings and B-wings
    - Traest Kre'fey's fleet: includes the Bothan Assault Cruiser Ralroost, X-wings (including the Rogues and Kyp's Dozen) and A-wings
    - Han Solo's task force: includes the Millennium Falcon, Lady Luck, Action VI transport Wild Karrde and Imperial II-class Star Destroyer Errant Venture
    - Luke Skywalker and Garm Bel Iblis' forces: includes the Mon Calamari cruiser Harbinger (headcanon Mediator-class battle cruiser) and Tahiri Veila's Barefoot Squadron
    - Yuuzhan Vong forces
    - Five battlegroups (with the Battle Group of Yun-Yammaka known to consist of 80 capital ships)
    - Blood Sacrifice (Tsavong Lah's flagship, class and type unknown, possible headcanon: either a Uro-ik V'alh battleship analog, a Kor Chokk grand cruiser or a Miid Ro'ik warship analog), Cruiser analogs, frigate analogs (including the Kusurrun), Coralskippers, Grutchyna, transport analogs (likely Yorik-tremas), yammosk war coordinators, 6 voxyn and at least 20,000 Yuuzhan Vong warriors
    - Result: many starfighters among the New Republic forces including Twin Suns Two (Vale), Twin Suns Three (went EV), Twin Suns Nine, another Twin Suns pilot and Twin Suns Four (killed by a voxyn) vs. Tsavong Lah, all remaining voxyn, at least 20,000 Yuuzhan Vong warriors (including at least 10,000 due to the space mines), a third of the total Yuuzhan Vong forces with all of Yun-Yammka and most of Yun-Harla and Yun-Txiin

    Battle of Bastion
    - At least 5 Imperial-class Star Destroyers including the Chimaera and Superior, other support vessels, TIE fighters and the Jade Shadow vs. at least 15 capital ships including cruiser analogs, 1 yammosk war coordinator, Coralskippers and Grutchins -- result: Superior destroyed, Chimaera crippled, many TIE fighters

    Fall of N'zoth
    - Unknown Yuuzhan Vong forces vs. 1 Yevethan battle station, several dozen capital ships and thousands of thrustships vs. 1 X-wing (flown by Jaina Solo) and 2 Nssis-class clawcrafts (flown by Jocell and Miza) -- result: all Yevethan forces vs. Miza to suicidal Yevethan pilot

    Battle of Galantos
    - 1 Lancer-class frigate (the Pride of Selonia), the Millennium Falcon, X-wings and Nssis-class Clawcrafts of Twin Suns Squadron, Y-wings divided into Indigo, Cerise and Reseda Squadrons vs. 2 Yuuzhan Vong slaveships, 1 blastboat analog (yorik-vec?), 24 Coralskippers and 1 yammosk war coordinator -- result: several Y-wings destroyed vs. all forces

    Battle of Borosk
    - At least 9 Star Destroyers including the Imperial-class Star Destroyers Defiant, Stalwart, Peerless, Relentless (ISDI), Right to Rule (ISDI) and Victory II-class Star Destroyer Protector, At least 1 Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser (the Braxant Bonecrusher), Frigates including the Widowmaker (Nebulon-B, Nebulon-B2 or Lancer?), blastboats (Skiprays?), at least 48 TIE fighters divided into Blue, Green, Red and White Squadrons, Jade Shadow, 1 XJ3 X-wing flown by Luke Skywalker vs. 2 Miid Ro'ik warship analogs, 2 A-vek Iiluunu carrier analogs, 5 cruiser and destroyer analogs (matalok or Suuv Ban D'krids? and Vua'spar interdictors?), 2 Uro-ik V'alh battleship analogs, several Uumufalh gunship analogs, 1 slave ship, Coralskippers and yammosk war coordinators -- result: several TIE fighters vs. ?? (I didn't check! too busy enjoying Pellaeon diss B'sith Vorrik)

    Battle of Esfandia
    - 2 Imperial I-class Star Destroyers (the Relentless and the Right to Rule), support vessels, TIE fighters, 1 Lancer-class frigate (the Pride of Selonia), Millennium Falcon and assorted X-wings, Nssis-class Clawcrafts and a single Y-wing of Twin Suns Squadron (Jaina Solo, Jagged Fel, Jocell flying as Four, Enton Adelmaa'j as Eight and an unnamed Bakuran as Nine who flies the Y-wing), at least 12 speeder bikes, multiple Ryn Network reinforcements including a ship called the Fortune Seeker, 2 corvettes, 1 drone freighter and several gunboats vs. 7 capital ships including the destroyer analog Kur-hushan and 9 cruiser analogs, corvette analogs, gunship analogs, Coralskippers, Blastboat analogs, at least 1 Yorik-strohna named Hrosha-Gul, at least 3 Yorik-trema troop transports, 7 Tsik-seru or Tsik-vai fliers, Yuuzhan Vong warriors, Chazrach support troops, yammosk war coordinators -- results: 1 Ryn Network drone freighter vs. all forces (with the Hrosha-Gul captured and redubbed Collaborator)

    Battle of Zonama Sekot
    - Widowmaker, TIE fighters vs. coralskippers -- result: several Coralskippers

    Of note, I didn't include the Battle of Bakura because that was not really part of the Yuuzhan Vong War to me, just an odd incident from separate forces taking advantage of the situation. I also didn't include the Raids on Wayland, Bimmisaari, Gyndine and Nal Hutta prior to Ebaq 9 as they were mentioned and we only know Ralroost was present, nor have I included Muunilinst or Yaga Minor because there's no details really to hand out.

    So lacking in detail, I really need the sourcebook.

    Oh well.

    Final entries tomorrow: Second Battle of Duro, Second Battle of Bilbringi, Battle of Selvaris, Battle of Caluula, Mission to Caluula, Battle of Mon Calamari, Battle of Corulag and the Battle of Yuuzhan'tar.
     
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  7. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    FINAL PART

    29 ABY

    Second Battle of Duro
    - Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mon Mothma, Immobilizer 418-class interdictor cruiser Memory of Ithor, Immobilizer 418-class interdictor cruiser Olovin, 3 Duros capital ships (Coriolis, Dpso and Redheart), X-wings (including Twin Suns Squadron), other fighters (including Duro Squadron) vs. 1 dreadnought analog (Kor Chokk?), 8 Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analogs and coralskippers -- result: All Duros ships and fighters, at least 200 crew on the Mon Mothma

    Second Battle of Fondor
    - A fleet led by Garm Bel Iblis (likely including the Mon Calamari cruiser Harbinger) vs. many capital ships -- result: all but 1 battle cruiser and 2 frigate analogs.

    Second Battle of Bilbringi
    - Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mon Mothma, Immobilizer 418-class Interdictor Cruiser Memory of Ithor, Mon Calamari heavy cruiser Vortex Wind, cruiser Olemp, medium cruiser Spritespray, Ranger-class gunship Justice, X-wings (including Twin Suns Squadron), at least 1 Nssis-class Clawcraft (part of Twin Suns Squadron), A-wings (including Scimitar Squadron), 1 Golan II defence platform, 12 TIE Defenders vs. 14 capital ships varying in size from about half to nearly twice the size of the Mon Mothma including at least 1 1,000-meter-long dreadnought analog, several destroyer analogs, Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analogs and 2 Vua'spar interdictor analogs, Coralskippers and Grutchins -- result: Memory of Ithor destroyed (other ships likely lost as well according to dialogue), 12 TIE Defenders vs. several ships

    Battle of Selvaris
    - Gunships (classes unknown), Transports (classes unknown), Millennium Falcon, A-wings (Scimitar Squadron), XJ3 and T-65A2 X-wings (Twin Suns Squadron, Kyp's Dozen, Taanab Yellow Aces), E-wings (Blackmoon Squadron), strike troops vs. 2 A-vek Iiluunu carrier analogs including Sacred Pyre, 3 120-meter-long Uumufalh gunship analogs, at least 200 coralskippers, 8 Peace Brigade ships, 6 slayer ships -- result: at least 8 X-wings (including Taanab Ten, Twin Suns Three, Twin Suns Six, Twin Suns Seven, Twin Suns Eleven and Twin Suns Twelve). at least 5 A-wings (including Scimitar Three) vs. ?? (I didn't write it down!)

    Battle of Caluula
    - Caluula Station, Millennium Falcon, Slave I, 4 Gladiator assault fighters, Galactic Alliance troops, volunteer soldiers, Mandalorians vs. multiple capital ships including gunboat analogs, tender analogs, 1 yammosk clustership, Coralskippers, 4 slayer ships, Ychna, Yuuzhan Vong warriors -- result: station captured, many troopers killed or captured

    Defence of Mon Calamari
    - Imperial-class Star Destroyers (including Mon Mothma, Rebel Dream and Right to Rule), Bothan Assault Cruisers (including Ralroost), Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers, Rejuvenator-class Star Destroyers, Mon Calamari Star Cruisers (including the Harbinger), 1 Executor-class Star Dreadnought (Guardian), 1 Viscount-class Star Defender (Viscount), cruiser Dauntless, heavy cruiser Yald, Hapan Battle Dragons, frigates, corvettes, attack cruisers, destroyers, several dozen remote control freighters, X-wings (including Twin Suns, Rogues, Wild Knights and Kyp's Dozen), A-wings (including Scimitar), Nssis-class clawcrafts (including Vanguard), E-wings (including Blackmoon), TIE interceptors, Y-wings, B-wings, TIE Defenders, Scimitar assault bombers, A-9 Vigilance interceptors, probots vs. at least 5,000 capital ships including Matalok cruiser analogs, Ro'ik Chuun M'arh frigate analogs, yammosk carriers and destroyer analogs, hundreds of Coralskippers and yorik-akaga picket analogs, yorik-vecs, multiple yammosk war coordinators -- result: many starfighters (including Twin Suns Two, Three, Seven, Eleven and Twelve and six members of Vanguard Squadron) vs. multiple coralskippers

    Battle of Corulag
    - Imperial-class Star Destroyers Elegos A'Kla and Mon Mothma, MC80B star cruiser Mon Adapyne, Mon Calamari cruiser Harbinger, X-wings (including Shocker Squadron), E-wings (including Blackmoon Squadron), Scimitar assault bombers and the Corulag resistance fighters (note: kudos to them and how they dealt with the traitors lol) vs. Matalok cruiser analogs, at least 1 yammosk carrier clustership, Coralskippers and Yorik-akaga picket analogs, 1 yammosk war coordinator, Peace Brigade TIE fighters, Yuuzhan Vong warriors -- result: all ground forces defeated by the resistance fighters

    Battle of Yuuzhan'tar
    - Imperial-class Star Destroyers (including Errant Venture, Mon Mothma and Right to Rule), Mon Calamari cruisers (including the Mon Adapyne and at least 2 other MC80Bs), cruiser Dauntless, Bothan Assault Cruisers (including the Ralroost), Hapan Battle Dragons, Nova-class battle cruisers, Strike-class medium cruisers, Carrack-class light cruisers, other cruisers and frigates, Action VI transport Wild Karrde, SoroSuub PLY 3000 Lady Luck, YT-1300f light freighter Millennium Falcon, assorted Smugglers' Alliance blockade runners, converted yachts and starfighters, Corellian gunships, at least 2 170-meter-long Record Time type troop transports, at least 1 near-400-meter-long troop transport, X-wings (half of Twin Suns Squadron, Taanab Yellow Aces, Rogue Squadron, Red Squadron and Wild Knights), A-wings, E-wings, Miy'til starfighters, Skipray Blastboats, Nssis-class Clawcrafts (half of Twin Suns Squadron), 12 Sekotan fighters (flown by Kyp Durron, Corran Horn, Lowbacca, Markre Medjev, Waxarn Kel, Octa Ramis, Tam Azur-Jamin, Kyle Katarn, Zekk, Saba Sebatyne and Alema Rar), multiple Jedi (including Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Tahiri Veila, Kenth Hamner, Cilghal, Danni Quee and Tekli), Galactic Alliance troops and commandos (including Page's Commandos), freed prisoners (including Pash Cracken), Wraith Squadron, Shamed Ones, Harrar, Noghri (including Meelwalh and Cakhmaim), YVH-1 droids and AT-AT walkers vs. light cruiser analogs, assault cruiser analogs, I'Friil Ma-Nat corvette analogs, Matalok cruiser analogs, Coralskippers, Yorik-akaga picket analogs, Yorik-trema troop transports, 1 slayer ship, Firebreathers, Rakamats, Yuuzhan Vong warriors, Slayers, Chazrach support troops, Sgauru and Tu-Scart, dovin basal mines -- result: at least 300 capital ships as well as at least 6 Smugglers Alliance ships that didn't make it to the Errant Venture, at least 11,000 starfighters (including Twin Suns Eight and Eleven), many ground forces vs. Shimrra, Onimi, many warriors and likely every Slayer on the planet, many warships in orbit, most of the dovin basal mines, most of the warrior caste likely when Nas Choka ordered the surrender

    And thus ends what I've been able to locate in terms of major battles. It was long and hard and I think I need to correct after finding a page of info I missed.

    So let's leave this to discussion. I'll wait.
     
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  8. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Hi @Noash_Retrac,
    thanks so much for the list. :) I think I may need it some time.

    Still re-reading Balance Point I miss a tying up Borga's end or fate. Wookieepedia sais nothing about it and it seems, since Randa got the villip, there is not talk about his progenitress anymore - and in the later volumes of the series either, what happened to her and the unborn huttling. I found that a bit poor, just like Teneniel Djo's fate was handled quite roughly and sketchy only from Jedi Eclipse to Dark Journey. o_O

    I was pondering that mayby Borga could escape, in my headcanon she goes to Dagobah. Then we could meet her and the born then huttling later in TFP, together with Tahiri Veila and some Yuuzhan Vong, searching for Zonama Sekot.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  9. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    You know (and probably from reading my battle section in Part 2), I don't feel sorry for the Duros losing their homeworld in Balance Point. Their actions towards the refugees and believing stupidly the Yuuzhan Vong would keep their word and not destroy their orbital cities among other things, plus their aloftness and uncaring for the fact that Duro at the time was the safest place for the displaced people resulting from incompetent military leadership plus the Yuuzhan Vong's actions on worlds they have conquered. Yeah, I can't muster up sympathy towards the Duros with what happens to them.
     
  10. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    And again Balance Point, ch. 22:
    What kind of experiments do you think the scientists would have gone through just in case they accepted?
    Did Nom Anor plan to implant some slave-controlling coral seeds (Yorik-Kul) on the scientists? Or maybe some enhancing gadgets like Nen Yim had or Peace Brigadist Benwick Chell got in Dark Journey?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
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  11. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Yuuzhan Vong doing experiments and research? Ah, but isn't that heresy?
     
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  12. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    They are simply discovering what is in the other cortexes
     
  13. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    The ones that are empty because the Yuuzhan Vong creators didn't think ahead to the main galaxy and never intended the Vong and the galaxy inhabitants to ever meet?
     
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  14. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    How can they be empty if the Vong keep 'finding' stuff from them (also only the 8th was empty).
     
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  15. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    And yet Nen Yim found nothing that would help ultimately overcome the New Republic. She had to make it up herself, as did Qelah Kwaad. They went to heresy because their gods hadn't prepared them for their ultimate victory (if there was victory to be had).
     
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  16. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I think you missed what I was saying.

    The Vong are just making things up but SAYING they found it in the Cortexs or it's close enough.
     
  17. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    You mean Yim's master Mezhan Kwaad, right? Though I suspect Qelah Kwaad to be all the same, just a bit more intrigant and mean.
     
  18. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Qelah Kwaad created the Slayers on Shimrra and Onimi's order. She's definitely a heretic.

    Shimrra and Onimi definitely are. They had to otherwise they'd have suffered their predecessor's fate after Shimrra couped him off his throne.
     
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  19. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Hi,

    When I quoted this passage, when Tsavong Lah told Nom Anor:
    from Balance Point, it struck me, that the German translation has a mistake. There it is just said "for its further use". So the English original sais clearly, that Nom Anor will stay for a while on Duro to direct and maybe to complete the revival of the until then barren planet. That wasn't clear to me before I downloaded all the English PDFs of NJO and cite them here from time to time.[face_idea]

    So after abandoning his laboratory on Rhommamool, Nom Anor got a new one now. And a space for living too I suppose, because before that his everyday life must have been quite an illegal one unless he always stayed on a ship even when not at a mission.

    Nom Anor staying on Duro for a while makes also sense, because he is not very present in Edge of Victory until he winds up in Star by Star again.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
  20. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Still going on to read Balance Point:

    I'm quite unnerved in ch. 18 by the way Luke at Bburru City is talking with Jacen long and lavishly about his vision and about, what to do or not to do with or without the force, while Mara and Jaina are struggling for survival. But sure, Jacen, cutting himself off the Force, didn't have any clue about his sister's fate. But in Luke's shoes I would not discuss with Jacen that long but come straigth to the point.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  21. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Going on to read Balance Point, ch. 19 and 20

    Do you remember the Sunesi Gnosos, who gave Jacen that card with his identity to leave Brarun's accomodation? I wonder if it is the same Sunesi, who was present at Ducilla Brarun's firebrand-speeches. I don't think that there are so many Sunesi at Duro or Bburru. In ch. 19 Jacen holds some philosophical talks with Gnosos, but in ch. 20 he is still in the room when Jaina comes in to get him out. So what was the Sunesi's card about? A loose end? Or were there two Sunesi? An interesting sideline story, but a bit chaotic and not finished IMHO.
     
  22. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    Hello there, so i've been reading this wonderful but sadly mutilated thread about Jacen from years ago (warning: may contain snark), and found this in post #793. I'm sorry if this counts as some variation of necroposting, i just thought this post was really well thought-out and it raises some interesting talking points for this NJO focused thread in particular:
    I think it's quite interesting to ponder regarding how this sort of narrative decisions developed over time, i want to know what everyone's thoughts about this are.

    In my view it's quite clear that the intent, in the NJO series itself, was to firmly establish Danni and Jag as the love interests for Jacen and Jaina, but Danni's case didin't work out so well because the chemistry between the characters wasn't really there compared to Jag and Jaina, Danni was definetly not planned out as a "trick" love interest to distract from the "real deal", going by how Vector Prime, and the early NJO was, in many ways, sort of a soft-reboot compared to the Bantam era. It is an aspect that eroded over time, as older established writers, continuity-minded writers, and nostalgic writers added to the series in ways that it parted from the vibe Vector Prime was going for in a meta sense (or is it just an effect of Salvatore being the least "close" to the universe of the writers and not an intentional thing for the start of the series to feel like a soft reboot?).

    Regardless of what happened later, in Vector Prime we got new spins on the Solo kids' characterizations (especially Jacen and Anakin, arguably the stars of the NJO) and a couple of other characters (most notably Kyp, who is very different from the last time we saw him), a new conflict between the Jedi about how they should organize that has little to do with how they were in the Bantam era, a whole status quo for the New Republic, a different focus, leaving behind characters, etc. Danni being a focal character is part of this movement towards making it accessible for new readers, since she's a new POV character that is immediately relevant to the plot, and from the get-go she is hinted at potentially being with Jacen (in a very uninspired way i may add, just forcing sexual tension isn't how to establish the basis for a compelling endgame couple), so between that and her planned role in the Knightfall trilogy it seems like it is obvious the plan was to make her the main love interest for the main hero (Jacen).

    But given the narrative of the NJO drifted away from this "soft reboot" feel (and probably because the writers realized it wasn't working) the Danni & Jacen pairing just fizzled away in the early stages, while in the midway, via Denning being a big YJK fan, we got Tenel Ka again as an important player with her feelings towards Jacen being made clear later in Dark Journey, i think that this was just the writers gravitating towards what they liked more, not the narrative hinting at Tenel Ka being the "endgame" notice that in no way the acknowledgement of Tenel Ka's feelings establish her as the romance option for Jacen from there on, in Destiny's Way, Force Heretic, and Unifying Force, she's still there, she's not locked in Hapes, she even participates in the Knighting Ceremony, but at no point is the relationship between her and Jacen developed, and the romance with Danni being pushed as "the" thing once again after Traitor, much like how Jag and Jaina were developed after Star By Star as the main romance for Jaina.

    These are clear indicators that the writers had the plan of making Danni the love interest, but simply weren't able to organically integrate it to the story, maybe it was because Jacen is a rather "asexual" character in his motivations and struggles, especially compared to his sister, and the plot of the NJO already had him busy with a lot of heavy personal and philosophical development that was rather new and unique at the time in Star Wars writing (and still is in many ways), so they basically had their hands full, the fact that the personalities of Jacen and Danni were just not compelling enough as a couple made for more reasons why it's development was undercut, why would you sacrifice Jacen's page time on that boring romance when Jacen on his own, pondering the morality of his actions and the best course of action to win the war is far more interesting to read and write? Hence, after some good development for them in Destiny's Way and a bit in the first two Heretic books, it was completely dropped, and those were the causes for it, it just wasn't working with the character journey they were going with Jacen in this series, and the romance wasn't that interesting (fan reactions might have affected the decision, too).

    I'm of the opinion that the way it got developed in Destiny's Way was a massive improvement from the previous instances, and i was ok with it even though the character dynamic wasn't that interesting, and the way their romance fizzles out in Refugee is handled in a very organic way, as a result of Jacen's character traits at that point, but more on that later, for now, i will say that, given how the stories correlate to each other, there's nothing to suggest Danni's original intent as a character was any different than Jag's, just that it didin't quite work out and they dropped it.

    That's where i disagree with the post i cited, where it says Denning was the one to drop it in Dark Nest, now, i haven't read that trilogy yet (i want to read other SW eras first before getting later in the Post-ROTJ, as well as other books), so i understand if you think i'm unqualified to make this assessment, but from the way it looks like, in Dark Nest Denning doesn't drop an ongoing romance between Jacen and Danni, he drops the character of Danni altogether leaving her in Zonama Sekot, which i actually support, her story has been told already, it was intimately tied to the Yuuzhan Vong and the NJO series, so her staying with them to help them find themselves again is a fitting end for her, but the point is that this is not like with Jaina and Jag, they "broke up" in TUF, sure, but they were still emotionally involved, it was more of an "on hold" thing, and the book made a specific point of their goodbyes, with Jacen and Danni there's none of that, he doesn't say goodbye to her, she is simply not potrayed in a relationship with him in the end of the NJO series because they never reached that point, there's nothing to "break up" in Dark Nest not even emotionally, Danni's character journey ends in a way completely unrelated to Jacen's in TUF so Denning can't break up anything.

    It was actually in the NJO series that they were informally "broken up", in the Epilogue of Force Heretic II, where Danni comes to comfort Jacen because they are struggling to find Zonama Sekot, she makes a passing remark of them being like errant satellites, so he immediately abandons the conversation because that sparked his idea of Zonama Sekot being detected as a moon, not a planet, in the Chiss database, Jacen's intense focus on his "mission" to find Zonama Sekot, to win the war, to redeem the Yuuzhan Vong, made them drift away in the exact moment they could have really become "a thing" in fact i like how this scene subverts how this sort of scenes usually play out.

    So yeah, in my view, the planning team did see Danni as the "endgame" couple for Jacen when making this series, but the writers simply couldn't put them together, for various reasons, and broke them up near the end of the series, without much being lost.

    Now, to return to that point i made about Jacen's character, which i think it is the most important aspect of this Danni "break up" thing, i think it says a lot about the state of his character in the end of the NJO, when he interrupts his "romantic" moment with her to go straight to searching for Zonama Sekot, without even saving the idea for later, or something, he's foregoing his own happiness to a degree, to fulfill his main, overarching objective, and he seems uncomfortable with pursuing such a close relationship at this time even before those circumstances, in spite of his feelings for her (he is thankful to Luke to get him out of the "situation" in Heretic I, where Danni is growing closer to him as a result of her near-death experience, showing he is not comfortable with getting into a relationship at this point), this supports the view of the character, especially post-Traitor and at times when he has a clear goal, as someone who is always seeing the big picture of the entire galaxy, never focusing on carnal needs, someone who, in a way, sacrifices himself to reach his big objectives, first with this foregoing of relationships to pursuit the, as the book calls it, sterile search that Vergere trusted him with, to obtain the most moral ending of the war, later when he renounces to his own self to achieve enlightenment during the Onimi fight, or even later when, in his words, decides to go on a journey across the Galaxy to "sort out the chaos of the Universe", even after his enlightenment, he wants the answers, he wants to "get" it, even when he cuts himself from the people he loves.

    This is a far more driven Jacen, a far more decided Jacen, he is no longer constantly doubting, constantly measuring himself and others to see if they are good enough, but choosing, and acting, according to what is being true to himself from the very core of his being, i think that his desire to sort of the chaos also came in because of his oneness which allowed him to fully comprehend the chaos, he is trying to gain on a mortal plane what he achieved on the conceptual plane, something he knows he will never reach, but still feels compelled to do, even after winning the war, always the student, always driving towards the knowledge to sort of all the violence and chaos of the world, because he feels this all-encompassing empathy for life, that is why he feels like such an "asexual" character, because his empathy and feeling of responsability for everyone leaves him thinking little about himself and the single person that he may love in a romantic way, his mind is always fixated on grander things.

    That is why i feel the way he foregoes a romantic relationship at that point is a great complement to his character development, it shows us how his principles dictate the kind of life he has, and what things he sacrifices in order to pursue grander objectives beyond himself.

    I think this could be a stepping stone on what he will do in the future, but only time will tell.

    Anyway, sorry if this got a bit ranty, i was hoping for this to be much shorter lol, but i want to hear your thoughts on this from the behind the scenes development aspect and from a character analysis standpoint.
     
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  23. Kadar Ordo

    Kadar Ordo Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2021
    @Irredeemable Fanboy Another thing that may have been a factor into Jacen and Danni not ending up together was the fact that Jacen was originally supposed to die instead of Anakin until they changed it at George Lucas's behest. I don't know how far into production or publication NJO was when that change was made, but it's possible that the authors didn't have any plans for Jacen and Danni's relationship to go anywhere because, well, he would have been dead. And since he was spared, they decided to take his character in a direction that made sense for him rather than force him into a romance plot that no one had any plans or foresight for.
     
  24. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    The thing is that the Jacen and Anakin switch as main characters happened way earlier, in the planning stages before the rights changed to Del Rey and before the Hand of Thrawn Duology released, when the story looked way different than what we ultimately got, i think that the Wook article puts it way better than i can: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_New_Jedi_Order#Conception
    It is apparent that the concept of Danni Quee as a character wasn't even a thing back then, much less her being romantically involved with Jacen, so the change of plans of who would be the Solo protagonist didin't have any part in how the love interests for them were developed midway through the series.

    On a side note: This early idea of Anakin being literally seduced by a Dark Sider Lady sounds strangely familiar with some early Episode VII concepts of what ultimately became Kylo Ren with Darth Talon.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
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  25. Kadar Ordo

    Kadar Ordo Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2021
    Huh. I could have sworn it was a lot later into writing that the change was made. Never mind, then :p

    That said, I also remember that there was a cancelled trilogy called Knightfall that would have featured Danni and a Jedi called Jorallen who may or may not have been a love interest for her, so who knows what impact that had. In fact, reading the Wookieepedia page now, it says that it was replaced by Edge of Victory and Star by Star in order to focus on Anakin before his death, which might have been why I thought the change from Anakin to Jacen was more of a "last minute" thing.

    Honestly, reading this as well as your quote about the early planning stages for NJO (when Bantam and Dark Horse were going to do the invasion storyline before Del Rey came in) makes me wonder what other plans never came to fruition that we don't even know about yet.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
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