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PT Realization: Mace Windu Was Right

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darkslayer, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    For not trusting Anakin. Just came to this realization a little while ago. Perhaps he was a jerk about it and that helped to cause Anakin's fall, but really can we say he was wrong about Anakin's dangers after what ends up happening?
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Nov 10, 2011
    This is one of those questions with no definitive answer. Perhaps if Mace had placed his trust in Anakin and taken him with him, Anakin would have been influenced to make a different choice than he did.
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  3. yodaman_reborn

    yodaman_reborn Jedi Master star 1

    Feb 7, 2009
    It was a self fulfilling prophecy. The Order didn’t trust Qui Gon and they were wrong about that. In fact if Qui Gon has lived then the fate of galaxy may have been different with him training Anakin. But his duel of fate had a different direction to go.
    Darkslayer likes this.

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 24, 2005
    Mace’s dialogue of, “I sense much confusion in you” (or something to that effect) said it all to me — if you’re confronting a Sith, you need to have a calm, clear, level head. This is what Anakin lacked. He was on a hamster wheel of PANIC MODE that he just couldn’t get himself off of. If you’re a police officer and are about to arrest a dangerous criminal, would you bring along a cop that is all jittery and seconds from a mental breakdown? Not if you wanted everything to go smoothly.
  5. Libs

    Libs Jedi Padawan star 1

    Aug 17, 2018
    Mace was both right and wrong I feel
    HevyDevy likes this.
  6. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 1, 2014
    I don't think it's quite as simple as "Mace thought Anakin was dangerous and untrustworthy and was proven right." Mace treated Anakin that way from the moment he was brought before the Council as a 9-year old boy, where he had his feelings of fear and longing for his mother belittled by a bunch of jerks in bathrobes. I mean, I feel the films make it pretty clear that the Jedi believe indoctrination practically from infancy is necessary for complete adherence to their ways, hence why a kid whose age isn't in the double-digits is considered "too old" to begin training.

    And it screws him up, big time. He lived his life prior to the Jedi feeling emotions the way a normal human being does, and then he's essentially told to repress parts of himself that are completely natural. You miss your mom? Wrong. You're afraid of bad things happening to those you love? Wrong. You feel sad when people close to you die? Wrong. This sort of stuff is easier to suppress when you've never had a chance to feel it, so Anakin spends the entirety of his time with the Jedi Order attempting to force down parts of himself, likely feeling belittled and guilty for feeling them in the first place.

    Pair this with the fact that Anakin is simultaneously told that he's in all probability the Chosen One, and thus arguably the most important Jedi in the history of... ever, with the fact that many Jedi (Mace chief amongst them) treat him like he's not trustworthy, that he's dangerous, that he doesn't belong there. That's a lot for any one person to grow up through. In spite of this, Anakin still decided to trust Mace when he reported Palpatine to him. It's maybe his most mature decision in the entire trilogy; this mentor, surrogate father-figure basically pulled the wool from off Anakin's eyes and said, "Boo! I'm the devil!" That's a ton of personal betrayal right there. And despite his desire to kill Palpatine on the spot, he turns him in.

    Obviously, his fear of losing Padme (an issue he can't discuss with the Jedi, and has literally no guidance on outside of Palpatine) provokes him to ensure that Palpatine isn't killed, but look at what he sees: the "good guy," who's treated Anakin like **** his entire life, is seemingly a hypocrite who's about to summarily execute an unarmed man, who's supposedly the most evil man in the Galaxy... but he's always been kind to Anakin, and he's offering to help him save Padme, someone the Jedi say Anakin shouldn't even be with let alone mourn the loss of.

    So, yeah, Mace was right about Anakin... but he kind of played a roll in turning Anakin into the threat he always treated him as.
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  7. yodaman_reborn

    yodaman_reborn Jedi Master star 1

    Feb 7, 2009
    I agree with what you’re saying @PymParticles. I would even say that Yoda and Obi Wan learned from their lessons. Where as in TPM Yoda refuses to train Anakin because he already has fear, by ESB he chooses to teach Luke despite his fear. So instead of avoiding fear like in the past, Yoda teaches Luke to control his fear.
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  8. ChefCurryWindu

    ChefCurryWindu Jedi Knight star 2

    Dec 18, 2015
    Why do people continue to say that Sidious was an unarmed man? The Sith Lord who resisted the first arrest attempt and swiftly killed 3 Jedi Masters? Then after being disarmed and defeated by Windu, resisted another attempt at arrest and tried to kill Mace by shooting force lightning out of his hands? Anakin must have been blind if he thought Sidious was unarmed [face_thinking], since he was standing literally right in front of Windu/Sidous when this exchange happened.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  9. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Oct 1, 2014
    No, Palpatine is definitely not "unarmed" in the respect that he can't defend himself. He has Force lighting, and yes, Anakin sees him use it. But when Anakin enters the scene, all he sees is the kindly old man who's taken Anakin under his wing from the moment he arrived on Coruscant backed against a wall with no weapon while Mace, who's always treated Anakin like crap, stands over him with a lightsaber to his throat. Even when Palpatine lets loose with the Force lighting, to Anakin that can look like mere self-defense. He doesn't know how the arrest went down, and it's likely he believes Mace skipped the whole "arrest" thing and jumped straight to violence, considering what Anakin sees him attempting to do.

    I'm not saying Anakin is right; he's not. Mace, for all his many faults, is essentially a good person, and apart from how difficult it would be to explain to the Senate, would probably have been justified in killing Palpatine right then and there. But this is what Anakin sees, and what he's seeing is also being framed by his years of experiences with both of these people, and that combination is ultimately what compels him to make the wrong choice.
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  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Nov 10, 2011
    Both Mace and Anakin believe that Sidious is spent and defenseless at the point Mace is about to deal the deathblow. This is a crucial point the film goes out of its way to communicate.
  11. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
    interesting. windu did play a part in anakin's fall by not trusting him but he was right not to trust anakin because of what anakin ended up doing. it's a catch 22 and that's why it's great writing.
  12. ThisIsMe1138

    ThisIsMe1138 Game Winner, Two Truths & A Lie star 4 VIP - Game Winner

    Jun 26, 2018
    This is pretty much what I would say... although I might add some capitalization ;) Anakin was not trusted, and he knew it, and in trying to earn their trust, in a way, carried out the very thing they were afraid he would do. I also think this undercurrent of distrust between Anakin and the other Jedi is what led him to keep Shmi's death and his love for Padme a secret; had he confided in someone I am almost certain he wouldn't have fallen.
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  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Minor comment, when Anakin enters, Mace says "You are under ARREST, My Lord.".
    So Anakin can see that Mace is trying to arrest Palpatine.
    And he can also see that Palpatine is resisting arrest and is trying to kill Mace.
    So Anakin has no reason to think that Mace was not trying an arrest earlier.
    Given that the other three Jedi are not there, the logical assumption is that they are dead.
    Yes Anakin does not see them but it is the most sensible conclusion.

    Why he chooses Palpatine boils down to one thing and one thing only, Padme.
    Remove that and Anakin would not lift a finger to stop Mace.

    Anakin yes but Mace?
    I could see him thinking "I tried twice to arrest this guy and both times he tried to kill me. If I lower my guard he could try a third time. I am done giving him chances to come quietly."

    So Mace could be thinking that Palpatine would just try to kill him again if he gets the chance and now wants to end this. Plus he is likely a bit angry over the Jedi Palpatine killed and that Palpatine tried to kill him just now.

    But his dialogue as to why is odd, he talks about the senate and the courts but Mace knew that before he went over there. If they were an issue, then he would never try with an arrest.
    It would make better sense if Mace simply says "I can't take him in alive, he will try to kill me, I have to end his life."
    And since Anakin is mostly about saving Padme, he would still stop Mace.

    I could also add that Anakin was told not to have certain emotions and tried to get rid of them.
    But he couldn't and instead he tried to bury them and pretend that they were not there.
    But they were.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  14. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    Samuel L Jackson kicking the Dark Lord of the Sith in the face and subsequently holding him at purple lightsaberpoint should outweigh any negative treatment Anakin received.

  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Mace was right in that Anakin could not be objective when it came to Palpatine. He sensed it earlier when Anakin had his little outburst in the Council chambers and he was proven right again in the hangar. He was not be a meany head to Anakin. He said what he said because he was doing this for his benefit. It would be no different if it was Obi-wan who was being arrested, or Ahsoka. Hell, when it was her, Anakin was very emotional then.


    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

    "You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

    Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

    --George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.
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  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Well, the argument on whether Mace was wrong or right not to bring Anakin along is arguably circular because the originally shot turn involved more emphasis on the political aspect of Anakin's fall, and if you hypothetically change the detail about Mace bringing Anakin you don't know what other details also change.

    The final version of the fall involves Anakin having far less free-will to not turn - he is partially duped into siding with Palpatine because of circumstance and Palpatine offering what Anakin (thinks he) needs.

    Playing up this aspect of Anakin's motive in the final cut to me implies that Mace bringing him along is what should have happened. It would at least buy the Jedi some time and force Palpatine to change strategy.

    The fact that Mace is a Jedi, yet dismisses that Anakin is prophecised to be the only one who can end the Sith, a fact that alone would justify bringing the chosen one on this mission... makes me think Mace is not fully comprehending aspects of the force's will here.

    Could there be a hint that Mace doesn't bring Anakin along because he knows if it comes to having to end Palpatine, Skywalker wouldn't let him do it?
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  17. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Agreed. I have argued this point several times before.
    In the novelisation Mace senses victory when Palpatine plays weak.
    So Mace thought he was killing a defenseless person, even if he wasn't.
    Both Anakin and Mace think this at the crucial moment.

    I would also stress that when Anakin arrives, Mace's "careful, stay back" hand gesture would indicate he sees Anakin as backup.
    It reflects the schism between Anakin and the other Jedi, Palpatine being the only of the three present that is actually acurately reading everyone in the room, when Anakin betrays Mace.

  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Just to add to this...

    One of my main reasons for percieving Mace as making a mistake in ROTS is really based on the (arguably supersticious of me) symmetry in Anakin leaving and returning to the Jedi Order.

    In ROTS Mace and the Council are partly pushing Anakin away from the Jedi yet Palpatine (the last Sith) is deceptively welcomingly drawing Anakin closer.
    Come to ROTJ and it is now The Emperor's own complacency and arrogance that pushes Vader from the Sith, where now the last Jedi is welcoming him back to his Order.
    Palpatine's confidence is proven justified in one trilogy, yet it is Luke's faith that brings the galaxy back decades later, and the Emperor's greed in seeking a stronger apprentice dooms him.

    Anakin's title as the chosen one is I think largely based on these two arcs, not just the fact that he is destined to end Palpatine's reign.
    Anakin is kind of the fulcrum whose sole actions ultimately shape the galaxy's doom, then decades later finally their success. But the people around him GREATLY influence his decisions, without specifically forcing his ultimate choice. It is interesting writing and to me goes a little underappreciated.

    Mace trying to kill Palpatine right in front of the conflicted Skywalker is a pretty karmic inverse answer to Luke not killing Vader.
    Look at some of the details of ROTS - Mace, who has been growing wary of Anakin tries to kill Palpatine despite Anakin's objections. Yoda, on Vader turning, implores Obi-Wan to kill him.
    And Obi-Wan is eventually forced to do almost just that, admitting in his speech on the lavabank that Anakin is basically dead to him.
    Then Palpatine arrives to salvage what is left of Vader and does what has been described as "his one compassionate act" in rescuing him.

    Come ROTJ and Luke is now the one showing Vader/Anakin true compassion and not giving up on him (despite momentarily breaking when Vader and Sidious wear him down, but ultimately coming back from it).

    When fate or the force's will's effect on the actions of people around Anakin seem so much to echo, I can't dismiss Mace's action as informed or impartial. It just isn't the way the films are written.
    It is kind of a symbiotic thing that the state of the galaxy is so symbolically tied to the actions of the chosen one. And significant when Anakin's choices seem implied as heavily connected to those close to him.
    christophero30 likes this.
  19. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well Mace's thinking is very questionable here.
    First he doesn't ask more questions about how Anakin knows what he knows.
    If he had learned that Palpatine just told Anakin that he is the sith the Jedi have looked for all this time and then let him leave. That would smell of a trap.
    Second, he does not think to warn his fellow Jedi of this and the clone army that obeys Palpatine's every order. And if he were to die, then passing on this info would be rather important.
    Third, he does not take a few minuets to make some kind of plan and settles for "Run in with sword drawn."
    Also does he think he can arrest Palpatine and the senate and the courts can convict him or not?
    He gives this as the reason why he has to kill Palpatine but he knew that when he left so nothing has changed.
    So did he always plan to kill Palpatine and he was just lying about it?

    What he could have done is to tell Anakin to contact Yoda and the other masters and inform them of this situation. It would give Anakin something important to do and show that Mace does have some trust in him.

    If Mace had brought him along, would that have changed anything?
    Palpatine would no doubt say "See Anakin, the Jedi are staging a coup, they are taking over."
    But before any fight, Anakin might not buy that and he was all for arresting Palaptine, the legality of it did not concern him. As long as Palpatine was alive and he could him pump for info, he had no problem arresting him.
    Would Palpatine attack the rest of the Jedi with Anakin there?
    Again possibly but it would be risky. Anakin might react instinctively and fight and Palpatine does not want that.
    Palpatine might pull the Padme card and say "I am the only one who can save her, if you let them take me in, she will die, choose!"
    Would Anakin fight and try to kill the other four Jedi after that threat?
    Maybe, maybe not.
    Padme is all he cares about so he might just decide to kill the other Jedi right there.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Great points.
    I will make a further proper response to this (and other posts here) when I get a chance to.

    I agree a lot about Mace's potential tactics in this storyline. I think a large part of it stems from lack of solid information enough to outmaneuvre Palpatine. Which isn't really on Mace (edit - despite admittedly being a logic flaw by either Mace or the writing) but could be used to argue that Palpatine wanted those specific three people involved at the final moment.
    If I were Mace, I would have been pissed off at Palpatine too. Sidious was pushing all the wrong buttons and looked like he was possibly just going to walk away if it went to court.

    Im not sure on Anakin truthfully.
    Im kind of thinking through the alternate reality lens about this topic. More often than not.
    The original cut had him turning basically because Palpatine gave him the "I am your father" moment (with a Skywalker who alternatively says yes to joining the Sith) and Anakin likely felt more acceptance with Palpatine - legitimately this time. At least more than the seemingly vastly different final cut.

    The fact that in the original cut he probably felt obligated to Palpatine after accepting the Sith's promise of power, before Mace was even present, yet in the final movie - In Mace's presence was obligated to the Jedi - throws a massive spanner in the works.

    The officially released script relevant to the final cut has Anakin's extended reaction when Palpatine reveals who he is - "I wont be a pawn in your political game. The Jedi are my family."
    ((Edit - Notice the final cut ommits this more compassionate and familial line from Skywalker, perhaps because as the turn in the final cut is happening both sooner (more instantaneously and in a shorter film run-time) AND later (because Anakin pledges several scenes later) they had to retain some semblance of the idea that Anakin is now strongly doubting the Jedi, just far more thinly presented.))

    This is so contrasting to the earlier filmed version; Anakin had accepted that he didn't belong with the Jedi like Palpatine claimed. Palpatine was now the only father he had really ever had. I am positive Qui-Gon made an impression on Anakin 13 years before, but their time together was brief.

    On the thought strand that pertains to Mace and Anakin arriving together yet with the same Palpatine "turning himself over to Anakin" scene from before, I agree Palpatine would have likely had a harder time convincing Anakin he wasn't full of it. But who knows, he possibly considered this scenario and would know how to turn it to his advantage.

    I think likely there would be more conflict through dialogue between the three (with or without Anakin having already pledged tbh) as Anakin watched Sidious and Mace fight, that is if Anakin didn't join a threeway battle himself. And Anakin I would think would clearly have more to say in that case, seeing the version we see you come into the scene (from Anakin's point of view) with a pace to the film that conveys how little time he had to think.
    Anakin originally refusing Mace's "stand down" order that Mace doesn't realise he is making to a Sith apprentice would have been cool to see.

    But yes, ultimately who knows.
    I agree that as long as Anakin loved Padme, or even felt his strong attachment to her, Palpatine could always hold that over him, and things would have to be vastly different to avoid a similar outcome.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    Well tbh I think in this case it may be that ironically Mace had started to partially trust Anakin's credibility late game. Perhaps because Anakin's mission appears succesful, or because he was mature enough to bring the info straight to Mace.

    MACE: A Sith Lord?!
    ANAKIN: Yes, the one we've been looking for.
    MACE: How do you know this?
    ANAKIN: He knows the ways of the force. He's been trained to use the dark side.
    MACE: Are you sure?
    ANAKIN: Absolutely.
    MACE: Then our greatest fears have been realised. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    Mace takes Anakin at his word.
    But as you implied Mace and Anakin don't get that the information is being planted by Palpatine through Anakin (unwittingly on Anakin's part), who believes he is still doing the right thing for now.

    Yes, but Palpatine was smart to relay it through specifically Anakin. You can't Imagine Mace or Obi-Wan being similarly duped if Palpatine revealed his identity to one of them.

    To the audience it is clear that Palpatine letting Anakin leave then waiting patiently in his office means he has something up his sleeve.
    Look how long Palpatine has been biding his time, looking at the ROTS script in particular it appears events go pretty much as he hoped.
    Mace on the other hand is possibly overconfident (I mean, look how it ends). And impatient or rash.

    I think Mace was in a heated rush, leaving to arrest Palpatine straight away. He was understandably stressed by recent events and probably just wanted the war to end so the Jedi could go back to being true peacekeepers.


    Yeah. To be fair to Mace I think this would be a pretty standard Jedi reaction to finding out your boss was actually a Sith Lord.
    Anakin does the same earlier, drawing his sword when he realises what Palpatine is.


    Yeah, my question was really just a theory. I think Lucas makes it pretty clear Mace tried to the legal thing first, but gave up following the code after Palpatine resisted arrest.
    But it is interesting to think what Mace's true beliefs are when we see most Jedi and Sith in the films fight to kill.

    That would be the more empathetic approach, yes.

    So true. And I think Palpatine knew this and wanted things to go wrong faster than that. The situation as it happens seems to turn out too good for Palpatine to suggest it wasn't his preferred plan of events, the way it ultimately ocurred.

    Good question, it is very hard to say.

    Which would be EPIC.
    Lol in all seriousness though, I think earlier envisionings of Anakin's fall would be closer to this.

    I think in versions where Anakin at this stage hadn't pledged yet, it would be hard to convince Anakin to turn on the Jedi just because they try to arrest Palpatine.
    He would likely see right through it.

    The takes where he has pledged already he has already burned his bridges to the Jedi, and is loyal to Sidious. Palpatine in the original cut had far more sway over Anakin by then - he kills Mace to protect his new Master.

    Perhaps. He had to become Vader somehow afterall.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    These Lucas quotes I totally agree with. Of course in the finished film Padme is Anakin's main motivation, to deny it would be completely missing the intention of Anakin's fall.
    Without Padme, Anakin is nothing. To lose her is to cease existing, hence his statement "I can't live without her". Their demise, when their own strong bond destroys them, ties beautifully into the fall of the Republic and the Jedi. And Imo Anakin at first truly loved her.
    I would even suggest without Palpatine's interference it could have worked out. But that is a complex discussion - as the devolvement of Anakin's selfless compassion into selfish possession is multilayered... plus inverts the story and character arcs in the OT.

    I would argue it wasn't the only present factor in Anakin's fall though, even if it is the key to understanding Anakin's turn. The complexity in Anakin's fall when broken down I am a huge fan of, and I think the film leaves a lot in the air for discussion. Lucas did say on ROTS's release "Im counting on the fans with this one".

    Lucas's comment "you realise that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith Padme is going to die" is quite applicable. I think Anakin is bringing the weight of the galaxy on himself to try to fix it, rather than surrendering to the will of that around him. And Padme dying is the ultimate thing he will not let happen. Tying into his search for Shmi in AOTC, which has been described on these forums as a "race against the setting suns to try to hold onto his past".

    Anakin's inner turmoil you really have to pay attention to, to fully notice while watching onscreen... perhaps relevantly Lucas once stated ROTS is designed to be watched about 5 times.
    Anakin reported Palpatine's identity to Mace, yet contrary to his efforts it seems to just make things worse for him. The more he does to try to fix it honourably, the worse the situation is getting, so it is understandable that Palpatine's offer of a quick fix would appeal, when Anakin's efforts to follow the Jedi way have felt fruitless from his perspective so far.
    Namely; the Jedi way just making the nature of the eventual moment he loses his mother far worse, his dedication to fighting some of the Jedi's greatest battles giving him no Mastership or real recognition, asking Yoda for help to prevent his second set of dark visions from coming true just being met with a "mourn them do not" from a Jedi he aspires to live up to (even though in words Yoda's general advice in the scene is solid, there is no way Anakin knows how to apply it), reporting Palpatine to Mace and just being told Mace will carry out the most important mission of the campaign and Anakin should just to go to the Council chambers and sulk alone with his thoughts.

    It makes the fall multilayered and quite interesting to analyse, yet still retaining the dramatic and operatic aspect of Anakin's love for those close ultimately warping into greed.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    (Run out of time to edit)

    I forgot to add that Yoda is ultimately right in his chamber discussion with Anakin. The philosophy is just a little dogmatically stated in a way Anakin doesnt appreciate.

    Plus I would add to the above list of Anakin's perceived fruitless sacrifices - Obi-Wan being given a combat mission to kill or capture Grievous (which Anakin is suited to), yet the Council leaving Anakin with a mission on Coruscant to spy on Palpatine (which Anakin isn't suited to and doesn't believe in).
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Even on a basic level I can't agree with Yoda. To not allow yourself to feel even the slightest bit sad when a good friend dies. To never even pause to mourn and reflect over the person that is gone.
    That is cold and uncaring.

    Letting grief overwhelm you can be bad but denying your feelings and trying to bury them can be just as bad. This is what Anakin did with his attachment to his mother, tried to deny it was there and not dealing with it.

    If what Yoda said is about not letting yourself become a slave to grief and that death is a natural part of life.
    Then he phrased it really badly.

    But the problem to me here is that Anakin has no real evidence that what Palpatine is talking about can work or if it even exists.
    Palpatine offers no proof of what he is talking about and once he reveals himself, Anakin has every reason to doubt his word.
    And Anakin seem to think that Palpatine arrested would serve his goal fine as then he can just get the info he needs from Palpatine in jail.
    If Anakin had read about Sith abilities in the Jedi archives and read that Sith could survive wounds that should have been fatal or that they lived far longer than normal.
    That would work as now Anakin has some reason to think that this can work.

    A bigger problem to me is that Palpatine pretty much admits that he does not have the power he said he had Anakin and now makes a vague promise that they can figure it out. And Anakin does not react to that.

    There were other things in the film that were to add to Anakin's fall, him not trusting the Jedi, his desire to have the war end as quickly as possible no matter the cost.
    But the problem is that these things were there during the original shoot and there Anakin turned earlier.
    But then Lucas changed the turn to be about Padme and nothing else.
    Which made the earlier stuff redundant.
    So the finished film has things that no longer matter and a turn that is different. So it does not really mesh that well.

    And to me, what Lucas sometimes did was not some much adding complexity but making things complicated.
    What I mean by this is that a complex issue can be described quite quickly but has lots of layers to it.
    Something complicated on the other hand is just adding things to an issue.
    Ex, juggling chainsaws, in a burning building, while there is an earthquake.
    That is complicated, not complex.
    Vader being Luke's father is complex because it leads to lots of questions;
    Why did Obi-Wan and Yoda lie?
    How did this happen?
    Can Luke kill his father?
    And so on.

    A complicated problem and a complex problem needs to be dealt with quite differently.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Nov 10, 2011
    On the contrary, I think Anakin does appreciate it. He just can't commit to it.
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