Full Series Rebels 3.16 - Legacy of Mandalore - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

I have no problem with Sabine being a good warrior, in fact, if she wasn't, it would be disappointing, considering she's a Mandalorian. What I do have a problem with her being a great warrior and an artist and a linguist and a weapons designer, etc. They could have given some of her abilities to Zeb to even out the crew's skills a bit. And Sabine isn't the only one who's overpowered; the whole Ghost crew (and really every rebel in Rebels, and Rogue One, for that matter) is way overpowered. Sabine is just the one with all the abilities and so much stuffed into her background that her past practically doesn't make sense.

I have the exact same problem with Ahsoka vs. Vader and Rey vs. Kylo as with Sabine vs. Gar Saxon. The fact is that men are physically stronger than women (in most cases), no matter how good of a fighter they are. Does that mean that women can't best men in a fight? No, it just means characters that are lithe and agile like Sabine and Ahsoka just aren't going to really have the physical capacity to block some of the hard blows being rammed on them by a stronger opponent, so they’re at a disadvantage and are generally going to have to figure out a different way to best their opponent than head-on.

Personally, I think it would have been much more interesting if Ezra had just interfered with the fight, and then they could have brought Saxon down together. I know Ursa didn't want the Jedi to interfere and all that because it's not the Mandalorian way, but the Jedi aren't Mandalorian, and it kind of seems like something Ezra would do. This is supposed to be a show that's about the Ghost crew working as a family, so I feel like it would have made sense and in for Ezra to care less about Mandalorian tradition and care more for the safety of one of his crew members. Sabine still could've been the one to do most of the fighting; I'm okay with that. Maybe some would have a problem with Sabine having to rely on a friend for help, but the theme of the Rebellion is supposed to be teamwork, and the theme of this show is supposed to be family, not individualism or whatever.

As for Starkiller, I'm not super familiar with the character, but from what I've heard he's overpowered and I would probably concur that he's a "Gary Stu" type of character.

 

She's a warrior and multilingual because of her cultural upbringing, and an artist because...well, hobby. Not really an unrealistic combo of skills, and basically half the warriors who were any good in RL practiced all of these. And she's not really a weapons designer, either, just a tech prodigy (gasp! unrealistic! who's anakin?) who got exploited. Not really gonna elaborate because of spoiler concerns, but it fits fine.

Ignoring that your basic premise is wrong (there's a **** ton of mixed gender fight vids you can look up that disprove that all to hell), it doesn't really have any bearing on Sabine's fight with Saxon. Their whole fight is either rapid-fire tech attacks (ie jetpack tackle, flamethrower burst, dart launcher, ex), or saber fighting, which is skill over strength. The one time a regular blow gets thrown is when Saxon kicks her in the chest and even then Sabine goes down (cause that's always going to happen when you get kicked like that) so...

"In its original, fanfic usage, [Mary Sue] described a character who was, yes, usually female, but whose greatest crime was not perfection: it was twisting the story. A Mary Sue in that sense literally walks into someone else’s world and makes everything about her. Flash forward to the modern day and it’s a rare female protagonist who doesn’t get accused of being a Mary Sue, and hence worthless. Here’s the thing: she can’t distort the story if the story already belongs to her. The protagonist, regardless of gender, is awesome and interesting and has a milkshake that brings all the boys, girls, or genderfluid space pirates to the yard, because that’s why they’re the star of the story. So calling female protagonists “Mary Sue” is sexist, belittling, and reduces them in a way that is very rarely applied to their male counterparts—even when those male counterparts are just as guilty of being a little too perfect to be real." —— Seanan McGuire

 

People will have their opinions so I'll just leave it at that.

 

Except, the term Mary Sue was first popularized in the media and among other fan communities with Wesley Crusher. Before Crusher, people outside the Trek fanfiction community didn’t even know what that was.

Also, that writer clearly hasn’t been in the same circles and I have been. Type “Kvothe Mary Sue” or Gary Stu on google and you see countless of threads dedicated to it. And he was the main character of his own story. Eragon and Robert Langdon are also other famously known as Mary Sue protagonists. Rodney McKay, the main character of Stargate Atlantis, has his own Mary Sue entrance in his wiki fan page.
Naruto started being called a Sue as the manga progressed despite being his own series and despite him becoming OP was the most logical outcome. Before he got his OP status, it was Sasuke the hated Mary Sue.

But the thing is, aside from a few cases of a main protagonist of a series being called a Sue, most of the times the term is used in the fanfiction community and nerd community, usually referring to characters inserted in an established universe. If you only hang out in the fanfiction community, which is dominated by women, it does feel like the term carries a strong sexist bias. And since it’s a female name, outsiders who hear it for the first time are more prone to associate it with female character criticism. It has certainly been used as a crutch to belittle female characters by men who simply don’t like them because they are female.

But I wholly disagree that calling someone a Sue is always sexist and doesn’t happen outside of story with female characters. It’s a pretty common criticism in the gaming, comics and manga community regarding perceived OP or over-idealized characters, who are often male. I remember before the Disney purge, Starkiller, Corran Horn, Dash Rendar, Thrawn often being accused of being Sues. Also Vos, but to less extent. The only female characters I remember being accused of being Mary Sues were Bria (mostly by Han/Leia fans) and Mara Jade after she become good.
And back then, there was nobody pulling the “sexism!!” card to defend their fan favorites, as most of the criticism was focused on male characters. There was none of that in the nerd communities because it was an accepted fact that every other overskilled character got accused of being a Sue by someone at some point.

Now, is “Mary Sue” a good term to use as a criticism of a character? Probably not. Mostly because it’s still a female name and it’s mostly associated with fanfiction, where female writers prevail – so it always comes with the implication that punishes female characters more. I am aware of female fanfiction writers in the Trek community being afraid of using female characters in their stories because they are afraid of this criticism, and it does feel like this term is disproportionately used against female wish-fulfillment fantasies than against male wish-fulfillment fantasies.

But don’t see the same correlation in the nerd communities, where the term usually only means “character with too many abilities for my liking”. Star Wars fans have been accusing male characters of being Sues for decades, and that is in part to due most of those power fantasy characters being male. Until now. Now there is more focus on promoting the powerful females. Which is great, but it doesn’t mean these characters should suddenly be immune to criticism just because they are females. Sabine is still being written in the same vein as many other male characters who were criticized of being Sues were written.

 

I don't remember how Sabine bested her opponent(s), but when it comes to Force using characters, the Force is their strength. It doesn't matter how physically strong they are. And still, they usually have less muscled or petite characters like Yoda focusing on agile movements and less on powerful blows.

Rey also bested her four (?) opponents in TFA using martial arts (the bo technique), which is perfectly believable and has nothing to do with physical power. They only forgot to give her a credible background story, but that is another discussion.

Also, while physical strength is a bonus, it means nothing for those who know martial arts.

 

First, I would like to say I didn't realize that "Mary Sue" is translated by many as a negative and sexist term. I simply meant it in the context of "a character with too many abilities". For me, labeling a character a "Mary Sue" doesn't automatically mean I dislike the character, it just means I think the character has too many abilities.

I could see her having a bunch of abilities, but it annoys me that you can list out like ten things that Sabine excels at, and then when you think about all the special skills Zeb has, there's like nothing, besides I guess he's an okay fighter and he was formerly an honor guard. Honestly, Hera is probably bilingual too and possibly Zeb if Lasats have their own language, and possibly even Kanan, since he was raised with the expensive education of a Jedi, although they don't seem to know as many as Sabine. The other crew members have like one or two special skills going for them (mostly fighting), but that's about it. Anyway, I was kind of referring to the timeline of Sabine's past, which doesn't really make sense to me. Somehow I can't fit in the "she lived on Mandalore, left for the Imperial academy (and never saw her family in person after that until Legacy of Mandalore), became a bounty hunter, and then was picked up by the Ghost crew by the time she was about 14 or so. It just doesn't seem like it would fit to me. It could, though, I just haven't figured out how to fit the pieces together into an understandable pattern. It still seems like a little too much, IMO.

I'm okay with Anakin having plenty of abilities because he's the Chosen One (and he's a Skywalker, and I don't mind Skywalkers being a little overpowered because they are the main characters). Probably my problem does stem partly from the fact that I don't like Sabine, I feel like they should focus on who she actually is as a person rather than all the things she knows how to do. Instead, we had to wait until season 3 for her character to get interesting and not so annoying, which is very sad for a TV show where the characters should have been well established by season 1.

I don't know a ton about combat and recently learned that sword fights are skill over strength. Still, I think my point still stands. Since he's an older Mandalorian, Gar Saxon should be more skilled than Sabine (just like Kylo had 15 or more years of lightsaber training, whereas Rey had never fought with one before, and I would say that Vader is more skilled of a fighter than Ahsoka). I get that Sabine is a good warrior because she's a Mandalorian, but Gar Saxon is a Mandalorian too, and I would think that because he's the governor of Mandalore, he would be a pretty strong warrior, hopefully one of the best if he is to remain in control of the other Mandalorians (otherwise it makes Mandalore look kind of pathetic, which unfortunately is basically what happened).

Honestly, though, the whole Ghost crew could really be taken down on the overpowered thing. They shouldn't be able to defeat characters like Thrawn, the Grand Inqusitor, Tarkin, or even the lower-level inquisitors so easily. Villains should actually pose a challenge for our characters. Makes them more interesting that way.

I don't have a problem with Rey beating up common street thugs. Jakku can be a rough place, it only makes sense that she would have learned to fight. to defend herself. My problem is with her beating Kylo. Basically, someone who has never used a lightsaber in their life is suddenly better at it than Kylo, who has trained for probably something like fifteen years. I get that he was injured, but all those years of training suddenly mean nothing? And I understand that Rey already knows how to defend herself, but she did it with a staff, and fighting with a lightsaber is much different and doesn't translate over to fighting with an entirely different weapon.

 

This is Star Wars, the main characters are always given strong plot armour to overcome unlikely scenarios. I don't know why people think Rebels or TFA are the first to do this. Sabine and Rey haven't done anything that wasn't any more undeserved than the feats of pretty much any other main character. Why do people's high demand for realism in characters only start suddenly applying when that character is a female?

Honestly, I think Sabine's development in recent Rebels episodes has been more "real" than anything we saw from the movies, with a few exceptions perhaps.

 

I don't know, but I never felt that Luke was given strong plot armour in the OT. He's almost killed on the first stop of his journey in the Cantina. If Ben wouldn't be there, Luke would just be another dead body left for garbage pick up. If Rey or Sabine would be there, they would mop up the floor with poor Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba without any need for assistance.

Similarly for Leia, which for me is still the best portrayal of a strong female character in fiction and the ideal everybody should try to aspire to. Leia has her skills and strengths, but she also has her weaknesses and isn't good at everything. We never actually see Leia fight someone hand to hand (unless you count that one time when she hit the Scout Trooper with a log ), she's not an awesome pilot or prodigy with machinery. Yet, nobody would ever call her weak.

When I watch the OT, I never feel like any of the characters are overpowered or doing something they shouldn't know how to do. Same for the PT. The only character that could be called overpowered in those movies is Anakin, and he is the Chosen One, so its not hard to accept that the person born out of the Force can do all these things by the age of 9.

There is a trend in my opinion in recent years in Western culture to portray female protagonists as overly powerful and too good at everything they do. I don't know if this is some kind of reaction to feeling guilty for portraying women as weaker in fiction throughout most of human history (thou there were always exceptions) or is a calculated marketing move to get women more involved in areas that were traditionally considered as "male", probably a bit of both, and seeing all these young women and girls feeling empowered around me everyday, I guess its working, however its also creating a counter reaction, mainly from men, who feel like they are the ones portrayed as the weaker sex now. And this is a serious issue that also academia is looking more and more into, as young boys are equally impressionable as young girls, and if they grow up watching and reading stories where women are always the stronger ones that have to save the situation, you're going to do exactly the same thing that was criticized for being done to women.

 

Sabine is a Mandalorian. Of course she'd have beaten up those two punks in Mos Eisley, nor will combat be her weakness. Leia was a politician and Luke was a farmboy. Sabine is a warrior. Her relationship with others is her weaker side, as is her reputation.

It's easy to think the movie characters from the OT weren't OP if they have significantly less screen time and therefore less of their feats apparent. I think it's very believable that they could all have done the same things The Spectres have done if Han, Leia and Luke were characters in a TV show.

I agree that there's definitely been a feminist effect on everything nowadays. And I do think Sabine would've never existed without it (female warriors!? Nah!) But I don't think she's a Mary Sue or is there a blatant agenda behind her character to overshadow male counterparts.

 

Pre Trials of the Darksaber, were either of those flaws really explored or emphasized? I wouldn't say so. All that was ever emphasized with Sabine is how she's good at everything, usually at Ezra's expense. I think that's what I liked about Trials. It actually gave her some humanity and characterization. And that's really the only thing I ask of any character-if they are a main character, their story has to be more interesting than their abilities. Abilities are simply a vehicle for telling a character's story, they cannot be a substitution for it. Had they consistently emphasized Sabine to be leery of being controlled and not privy to information (like in out of darkness) or if they had emphasized her reluctance to open up (can't think of any episode that hinted at this other than Trials), her season 3 (and I assume 4) episodes would be that more impactful. As it stands for me now, she's just been a list of superlatives with an (admittedly great) story pasted on 3/4ths of the way through the series.

 

Let's take this to the Official Sabine thread please Meeko Ghintee and MandoArtist.

 

So new preview clip up where:

Spoiler

Bo-Katan shows up and everyone acts like she's this great person who should inherit the throne to Mandalore in some clunky exposition dialogue. No hint of her, ya know, banding up with a terrorist group and razing down villages. Hopefully the reason she turns down the sword is because of some self-reflection of what she's done and a fear of what she could do with power. Cause I'll be disappointed if they turn her into some kinda saint with no mention of the majority of her characterization throughout TCW.

 

Spoiler

I've long wondered if they intended to address that in Siege of Mandalore. I can't imagine Ahsoka would immediately accept Bo-Katan as an ally having seen what she's capable of.

 

Spoiler

Figured it was a matter of "well this is all we got who is fighting against the right people" rather than "look at this paragon of Republic virtue". Though, with the way Rau and Sabine act arout her, maybe we did miss something in that arc. Or maybe because they're Mandos its easier for them to overlook that kind of checkered past. I mean, who hasn't gone on a bender and murdered an entire village? (insert image of Anakin Skywalker chuckling in acknowledgement while others look at him judgingly)

 

Clearly a few important details from Siege Of Mandalore were missed.

 

Its Star Wars! You can commit the most horrendous crimes throughout most of your life, as long as you end up with the good guys in the end, all is forgiven

 

Can we talk for a second about how Gar Saxon is the most inept Mandalorian commander in the Galaxy?

He comes to arrest two unarmed Jedi with his four elite bodyguards, promising Ursa Wren that Sabine will be free to go in exchange for the Darksaber.



As soon as Ursa hands the saber over, Saxon then declares that all of Clan Wren are traitors. Cue standoff between two factions of Mandalorians. Unfortunately, Saxon seems unable to count. He's confronting eight warriors of Clan Wren, plus two Jedi with his four bodyguards and himself.



The Viceroy of Mandalore is outnumbered, two to one. How the heck did he think he was going to succeed in killing all of Clan Wren and capturing a Jedi Knight and his Padawan? No surprise, Saxon loses the fight easily and all four of his guards die, only taking out two Wren warriors in the process.



The fight itself has inconsistencies, with extra Mandalorian soldiers on both sides disappearing and then reappearing, and then vanishing again. More signs of Rebels stretching it's budget too thin and making sloppy mistakes.

 

I guess Gar Saxon is really confident about his abilities

 

You're telling me a cartoon has animation inconsistencies! NO IT CANT BE TRUE! Rebels has failed us!

Seriously, though. It WAS implied before that The Saxons were just generally not a very bright or powerful Clan, and that they had to betray Bo-Katan in order to get The Empire on their side and rule Mandalore. Basically they were desperate for power, because they were lacking it. Because typically the Mandalorians follow the strongest, and Gar Saxon isn't the strongest.

Gar Saxon could display an impressive title but he had little in backing it up. Sabine isn't even the most potent Mandalorian yet he decided to duel her in a form he clearly wasn't experienced in, being lightsaber combat. Meanwhile his opponent was trained by Jedi, and who knows how to use lightsabers better than the Jedi?

 

Rebels has failed us for the last time. But yeah, Saxon was a very incompetent leader. I read a decent fanfic the other day that remedies the obvious errors in this episode and has Saxon arrive at Krownest with a full company of Supercommandos.

 

And he wrongly assumed it would go smoothly. Rau ruined his good time.

They were outnumbered but Saxon had them outmaneuvered. Saxon had Tristan and Ursa at his mercy, so Clan Wren wasn't about to open fire. It was a Mexican standoff in an enclosed place in which everyone had a gun trained on somebody. Sabine and the Jedi were a third party who broke the standoff once Rau came busting in.

So the battle was larger than just the skirmish involving the show's protagonists and the weekly villain. There were more Mandalorians than just the few inside the Wrens' palace. Nothing egregious about that.