Full Series Rebels 3.21-3.22 - Zero Hour (Season Finale!!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Anger over something like ''art'' ... I call it insanity.

 

I'd call that being passionate about something.

 

Rebels Thrawn isn't the Legends Thrawn. When I'm watching Rebels, I'm always trying to remember that this guy isn't the exact same guy from Zahn's books and watch it with open mind.

This Thrawn has emotions. He keeps them bottled up inside most of the time, but there are clear moments where his emotions do come to the surface.

The most obvious case is his outburst against Captain Slavin. Imagine if someone at your work would suddenly violently grab you and threaten you just because you made fun of something they like. You would probably not think this person is in control of him/herself.

You can see similar outburst of emotion against Kallus, when Kallus destroys the jamming device and mocks Thrawn for "talking too much". Thrawn has this slightly different look in his face that betrays uncontrolled anger. Also what's the point of torturing Kallus in the communications tower? It's obvious Thrawn wasn't asking him any questions, he just wanted to punish Kallus, and from Thrawn's smile, you can see he enjoyed watching Kallus suffer. You can see similar look in Thrawn's face when he blows up that worker in the Lothal factory. This Thrawn doesn't hurt people just because he thinks its necessary for the safety of the galaxy, this Thrawn enjoys it.

This new Thrawn also has huge ego and strong need to prove to everybody else he's smarter and better than them. I think this is also what Dave Filoni was referring to in the last Rebels Recon as Thrawn's weakness and will probably be the reason Rebels finally do defeat him. "Your overconfidence is your weakness." as one Jedi once said.

Now, I'm little worried about Zahn's portrayal of Thrawn in his new book, as I think Zahn will portray Thrawn as he was in the old EU, not as he is portrayed now in Rebels. This will probably make fans of Thrawn very happy, but will not fit very well with Rebels Thrawn, and Pablo will have to make up contrived explanations about Thrawn "changing" during his time in the Empire or something like that.

 

I can only speak for myself, but the character I see in Rebels is recognisably Thrawn as I know him from the Legends stories. His outburst towards Slavin is something that I think goes beyond just the simple threat and disrespect towards a piece of artwork, there is the whole xenophobic motivation, there's the fact that said piece of artwork has very specific cultural and emotional value to Hera, and there's the fact that Slavin was relentlessly insolent and foolish despite Thrawn making the effort to educate the man and foster some kind of cultural understanding. But even when he did lose his cool, he was very quick to catch himself and apologise when he realised that Slavin was acting out of ignorance rather than spite. It's worth noting too, that Zahn has mentioned that he's specifically dealing with a Thrawn we've never seen before in his works; a Thrawn who isn't a commanding officer and has to deal with quite a bit of prejudice and adversity. We never really saw that in Legends because it was irrelevant to the specific stories he was featured in. Likewise the aggression he showed in physical combat is not really something that I think anyone would consider as out of place.

Filoni has said this before, but Thrawn is a true believer in the ideals of the Empire. He absolutely buys into the notion that what the Empire is doing is for the greater good of the Galaxy, and he personally points out that the sabotage being done at the Lothal factory is costing them imperial lives. Kallus is a traitor to the Empire. In his mind, both of these individuals are treacherous and deserve death and punishment for their actions. And while millage may vary, I don't think this makes him a sadist. And again, going back to Filoni's comments on the character, he's not particularly interested in glory or personal advancement in the way Tarkin, Pryce or Krennic are.

I think more than anything, it's really that people are reading more into things than is intended.

 

The guy has written Terminator Salvation books, so yeah he would be writing it regardless

 

He's also written Starcraft books. He is one of a number of authors who write a great deal of franchise fiction as well as original fiction.

That doesn't mean he would say nothing if he was slightly upset, or write something he felt strongly opposed to purely for money.

 

I wasn't a big fan of Season 3 overall. Every season thus far has had a lot of weak episodes, IMO with some really good ones mixed in, enough so to keep me watching.

This season's high points I don't feel ever really got that high. I will say that I have two complaints about this season finale, so in the end this was a decent finale, but still did not feel as powerful as the S1 or S2 finales. Those left with big changes leaving me eager for what comes next, this finale, not so much.

I felt like the Grand Inquisitor was an interesting enough villain, and when he died, he foreshadowed Vader. Then we got Vader vs. Ahsoka.

Thrawn actually feels like a step back from that IMO. He basically came across as a non-Force using Inquisitor. Their demeanors and composure were very similar. They were both very analytical. But Thrawn just never had any kind of big presence IMO. They had Tarkin in season 1 and Vader season 2. Then went to this guy, and seemed to rely heavily on his popularity from the books to give him that same presence.

I asked before, who is the target audience of the show? Because on the surface it seems intended for kids (being on DisneyXD and all), but then they get this literary character from the 90s, when Pablo has even said EU readership paled in comparison to movie viewership, so you have this character from the 90s that a relatively small segment of the fandom would have familiarity with, following the likes of Vader.

Having a vague understanding of Thrawn until Rebels, I will say the whole studying art or allowing the Rebels to escape to study them was just really uninteresting.

So a strike against the episode is just that the villain just didn't interest me. No matter how many ships he destroyed, Thrawn, as a character, is just boring to me.

The second thing was Bendu going all wrath of God on everyone. I thought that was a bit much and too Deus ex machina for my taste.

While my dislike of Thrawn made the finale less epic than the previous finales for me, it was still a pretty good episode with almost no complaints from me until Bendu unleashed his anger.

That was a bad resolution to the tension between the characters IMO. A really, really bad conclusion.

Overall, a decent episode that stumbled at the finish line and didn't leave me as interested in what comes next like the great finales of past seasons.

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Thrawn didn't just appear in books and comics though - he appeared in computer games as well - which might have expanded his profile some.

Plus, when compared to the later books, The Thrawn Trilogy was pretty prominent - bestsellers, and the first books in the big 90s EU launch.

So more people are likely to be familiar with Thrawn than almost any other EU-originated character.

 

Yikes this episode was a bit of a disaster, which isn't surprising with how this season went.

 

But when your target audience is ostensibly 12 year olds +/- 2 years, I can't imagine anyone in that group really knows much about him.

If a parent exposed their kid to Star Wars, I'd think it would begin with the films. So people would know who Tarkin is or Vader.

I would imagine the number of children born after the turn of the millennium that know of Thrawn is very limited. I get that they may want to adapt the character for a new generation, but he seems like a character they should have played earlier in the series in that case. Not someone to follow Vader, Tarkin and Maul.

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I'd be a lot happier with the season finale if Thrawn was smarter. Seemed his "strategy" was to do a standard Imperial blockade with a couple Interdictors, bombard the base from orbit and then go in on foot. IMO that's not Thrawn...just makes him like every other Imperial, just wearing a Chiss suit. I'd also be happier if the fate of one or more of the Rebels was in jeopardy (captured, injured....or even if darkEzra happened). There's just no suspense or sense of jeopardy to leave me wanting more. A season finale should have that.

It also might have been a mistake to not use the Noghri. Then Thrawn would be more of a menace to the Rebels....Thrawn himself vs the non-Force users and the Noghri vs Kanan & Ezra.

I really don't get why Rebels is what it is (a straightforward kiddie show). I grew up with the OT and was probably 10-13 when I read TTT, and I was perfectly fine with it. And I was a really sensitive kid. Dumbing things down, like they have IMO, isn't serving the series well.

 

Thrawn would have continued to bombard the shield until it failed, but did not because he was ordered to take them as prisoner by Tarkin.

 

Weren't those Death Troopers a little short to be...Death Troopers?

 

I enjoyed the various battles, from space, to orbital bombardment, and finally on the surface. I liked the carrier sacrificing itself - that reminded me of Prometheus, where the captain and two pilots rammed the alien ship. Overall it was a good episode, but I kept waiting to see an appearance from the Noghri.

 

Thank you for saying all this.

Wait a sec... you mean they killed off the guy whose voice continued to influence Luke and who appeared multiple times in ESB as a ghost as well as a cameo in RotJ?

 

Obi Wan wasn't a main character though.

 

Can't have it both ways... This is a circuitous argument.

I'm sorry -- what? Come now... Shirley you are NOT serious? Pablo never said that. I refuse to even Google it to prove my point.

 

Pablo never said he hates TFA. He didn't like Starkiller Base, reading his tweets on it, but he's never hated TFA. He likes all the films. Although it sounds like JJ didn't like input from the Story Group. Glad they ultimately overruled him on that. I want it to feel connected and not just what JJ wants, which is OT-pandering. Sorry for the off topic, just wanted to say this.

 

Well this was sort of Rebels I think we need to see more.

Spoiler

Very solid episodes this time- good season finale but season itself was not that good really- at least they didn't kill off Thrawn and he kicked rebels' asses like he should- Bendu was kind of unexpected variable so it was not Thrawn's failure really.

+ With Thrawn in command Empire actually does things properly this way, Konstantine was a failure though- surprising how Vader let him live- he was such a fool from the start and failed again and again.
+ I liked the way they handled Bendu- he is surely powerful but very stoic and apathetic, he is not invincible but not conventional force-user either- he is more powerful than average jedi or sith for sure. that force storm was kinda cool too but I'm glad they didn't make him godlike either.
+ Dodonna and entire bigger picture of the rebellion is nicely visible and Rebels actually fight for survival, not having easy time like usually in this show.
+ Sato went off heroically- (if only he wouldn't have japanese name and appearance we wouldn't get the obvious stereotypical kamikaze here... oh well)

- I think Rex could've died as well- there is really no need to have him survive every time, Filoni just likes clones so much he still wants to keep them around... I think they didn't want to kill too many characters since Sato and Konstantine died and Maul just one episode before this, but really since Bendu survived (I suppose- or did he die and become one with the Force like Ben?) Rex could've gone as well, would make a bigger impact than Sato which is just a side character after all.
-I dislike it how Rex complains about At-At:s having 4 legs, he should rather comment their height since that's obvious weak point as seen in ESB- At-Te sure is more stable also because of one pair of legs, but seems that Rex just hates it because it's different than old trusty At-Te, seems pretty superficial and childish analysis. I would expect Rex to compare imperial and republic military and machinery bit more thoroughly than just counting legs and then deciding that it's wrong to have 4 legs in walker- need to be six! But Rex seems to be somewhat neophobic since he also hated Phase 2 clone armor for no obvious reason...
- Kanan cutted At-At- legs too easily- sure he has more jedi training than Luke but in movies lightsabers don't cut so fast- he should like saw them off not just swing swiftly like that- it makes it seem too easy.
- Death troopers were not having larger role, were they really even needed in this episode? It's a nice tie-in to Rogue One though.

? He was almost like some sort of demigod here- far from generic IMO

Rebels is after all aimed more at children. Wanna see all main heroes dying then watch Rogue One- Rebels won't show such a massacre.

Spoiler

Sato died at least as well as one of the worst imperial officers (Konstantine) by Rebels-standards that is much. Usually only nameless stormtroopers die in this show.

Wow I am surprised how so many people overestimated Bendu- he was more powerful than I even imagined and I wouldn't be sure he is dead- but maybe like Ben he became one with the Force. I never thought he was supposed to be anything like Force Wielder of Mortis- he was ancient force user but mortal natural being or so I always thought- I don't know what theories you had though but I think he was used well- never thought they would make him battle so.

 

Not killing off characters would be ok if the series wasn't focused so much on action.

A tweak of an old quote covers it.

Action scenes are just a tool: a means of telling a story. People have a tendency to confuse them as an ends unto themselves. An action scene without a story is a pretty boring thing.

 

The thing is -- a lot of viewers feel there is a story.

 

The problem is that in previous seasons they had something intriguing for the next.

In the S1 finale both Ahsoka and Vader show up at the end. For S2's it's Kanans Blindness and Ezra's potential Dark turn and Maul being (in the words of FPJ and Witwear) someone who sits on his shoulder offering advice for Ezra. Now granted with the exception of Shroud of Datkness, you could watch the 1st and last episodes of S2, leaving out everything else and not miss a beat, while both the Blindness and Dark Ezra story were wrapped up in the 1st episode, with Kanan blind in name only and Ezra actually regressing to being more childlike. That's not the point though, they at least offered excitement for something more.

For S3 there is nothing, there really Thrawn was only thrown in because they were running out of names to use and great voice acting aside, he's been poor as a character, while the Empire have been made so useless and incompetent and the Ghost crew so untouchable, it's literally taken any excitement out of it.

As for Filoni he is reduced to saying he's going to wrap up old TCW storylines. He's basically asking his audience to watch because of another show !

I was going to give a long list of what I think is wrong etc but then I realised that the shows problems are the same ones they have had back from S1, so it's pointless.

 

I saw that outburst a little differently. Over the course of that episode we see Thrawn explaining things and trying to teach Slavin how to be a better commander, kind of like he does with Pellaeon. The most important thing hes trying to get across is the importance of knowing ones enemy. But unlike Pelly, Slavin steadfastly refuses to learn anything and consciously chooses to continue to be ignorant. (Difference between an error and mistake and all that.). The last insult about art is just the final straw, Slavin is irredeemably inept, because he refuses to be anything else. Thrawn is ready to read him the riot act, but realizes its not worth his time and just leaves Slavin to continue to fail. His "I have to remember not everyone appreciates art like I do." was really a tactful way of saying "You're hopeless and I'm done trying to fix that".